Prevenient Grace

It is true that the wicked has GOD's wrath for them on the day of judgment and it is these that GOD know will forever go to hell and the question that I ask the arminians is: why can't a soverign GOD save them? Is it because GOD is to weak?

God is soverign and HE is NOT weak.........

God will save whom HE will and HE will damn those who HE choses to damn, and no man can decide agianst HIM and force GOD to do other wise.

 

Has nothing to do with weakness. They aren't saved because they did not meet His requirements. Simple.

You're preaching to the choir.

Not entirelly...God saves those who have faith in Christ, and damns those who don't. This isn't a random decision.

Millions die daily deciding against Him, but I do agree that we can't force Him to do anything. Actually, we can if you think about it. Scripture tells us if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin. Sounds like if we confess our sin, He has to forgive us per His own requirements.

 

If you read the whole Wikipedia entry on prevenient grace (among many other definitions and sites that treat it both pro and con), you'll see that most of those who hold to it assert total depravity. Prevenient grace gives us enough power to make a decision, but not enough to actually ensure that we make the right decision (it is left to our free will). Once we make the "right" decision, we are saved.

Like I said in so many words in another thread, all you have to do is substitute prevenient grace for regeneration, and you've got the same order of steps as election. The only difference is that it cranks the knob of regeneration down far enough to give man the credit or blame for making the right/wrong decision.

 

Those were the signs of the Son of man and it wasn't time for Him to appear yet. You're not "questioning the potter," are you?

skypair

 

Wow. Just checked in this morning. Sounds like npe and AAA have it all figured out. Got God in their nice, ornate, Calvinist box and can explain His every thought and deed. No need for me to comment further and reveal my (evidently long and considerable) ignorance.

JDale

 

That is a slanderous statement --- as if man isn't the one responsible for his own damning!

Have you ever heard the statement (which would halp you understand soverignty, no doubt), "with authority comes responsibility?" You can't have the responsibility for sin unless you have the authority to commit or not commit it. If you are just doing what you were "designed to do," then it was the "Designer's" authority that made you that way and His responsibility for you doing so (course, rebe will say "somehow that can't be true." :laugh.

There is NO responsibility for sin without the freedom/choice/authority/sovereignty to do right.

(Duck, JDale! Incoming!! :laugh: )


skypair

 

Just a question...

Which God is "stronger," the God who HAS to control EVERYTHING by command and decree, or the God who foresees and KNOWS all things, yet allows His creation to choose within His sovereign dominion?

I submit that the God who cannot handle our (quite pitiful, finite and limited) abilities of choice and remain sovereign and in complete control, is the weaker.

That man HAS "free will" does not compromise God's sovereignty at all -- to the contrary, man's free will ENHANCES it.

JDale

 

I'd love to see some scriptural support for THAT. :laugh:

 

Wanted to add this question asked on another forum:

"Does God set the choice between life and death before every man without exception?"

 

It is as simple as three words that are bound to scripture.

Man is resposible.

It is a question of why CAN'T God save them. Arminians believe God COULD, but set forth in His plan that man be responsible for the truths God reveals to him that the purpose of God might be fulfilled - to faith unto salvation or unbelief unto damantion.

 

False dichtomony; at least for me it is. I don't deny "free will" completely. I deny libertarian free will, though. As I have expressed in other threads - God allows man to choose hell. God allows man to choose sin. So in that sense man is free. But on the flip side, the fall of Man is so great that in order for anyone to be saved, God must intervene to the point that it guarantees our voluntary acceptance of the Gospel. Again, those who are saved do so willingly, but only after the work of God in our hearts.

 

AH! Bingo! Excellent observation AT! I agree with you! That work that God does in "our hearts" is prevenient grace! The working of conscience, common grace, general revelation and then the "special revelation" of the Gospel, and the drawing of the Holy Spirit!

As someone else observed, the big difference at this point is that Calvinists place regeneration here, while Arminians place prevenient grace here. Calvinism removed the inconvenient and ill-fitting rogue element of "free will" and ties salvation up in a nice little predestined, irresistible package, with a pretty perseverance bow on top. No "lose strings."
(Sorry guys, it just sounded too cute to pass up -- I'm joking!)

Prevenient grace, on the other hand, leaves the responsibility and the opportunity in the hands of Man -- enabling him to choose -- and holding Him accountable for the choice. And God foreknows it all, and it doesn't threaten Him or His sovereignty whatsoever.

JDale

 

I just wanted to add that this is something that is said quite often here on the BB. This is not a fact, but is an assumption only, for our guests reading this thread. This cannot be proven by Scripture.

*now taking you back to our regularly scheduled program....

 

JDale,

Ultimately, our difference lies in that I see all good in this world as the direct result of the active work of God, while you let man retain some amount of the glory (even if it is only .0005%). I realize that may come across as dismissive of your view - it's not intended to be, but that is how I see it. And I realize that in the Classical Arminian view, God does get the overwhelming majority of the glory. And I also realize that we agree on the essentials of the Gospel, which is why I will gladly fellowship with you.

 

Not even if they respond to the revelation and ask?

 

If they ask to know God wouldn't they get Jesus?