Prevenient Grace

[AAA]

Naa uhhhh........... lol.

Mark 4:
[11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
[12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.​

Note that this particular passage is talking about conversion, and the forgiveness of sins.
And note that Jesus does *not* want some people to be converted; He does not want them to have their sins forgiven. He forsees that they would have faith if they truly understood His message, but He explicitly says that He uses parables so that they will *not* understand Him. Again, God does not respond to foreknown faith by predestining them!
Notice that Mark 4:11-12 actually demonstrates the *opposite* of prevenient grace. This is more like an example of Divine "prevenient hardening". Consider this comparison:

• Arminians think that God wants as many people to repent and be saved as possible, and that He gives all people "prevenient grace" to enable the salvation of all people.
• But Mark 4:11-12 teaches us that God knew about some people who *would* repent and be saved, and so Jesus spoke in parables to make sure that would not happen! Jesus refrained from speaking to them clearly, "lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

The above two statements are completely in opposition to one another. Arminian "prevenient grace" is a doctrine that directly contradicts the Scriptures.
Conclusion

In Matthew 11:21-27, we can see that God sometimes withholds things from people, even when He knows that those very things would have brought people to repentance. These actions of God do not sound at all like the actions of Someone who wishes to enable the salvation of everybody.
In Mark 4:11-12, we can see that Jesus intentionally spoke in parables, instead of plain language, so that many people would *not* understand, repent, and be forgiven. This is clearly the opposite of Arminian prevenient grace.
http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/prevenient.htmhttp://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/prevenient.htm

It is true that the wicked has GOD's wrath for them on the day of judgment and it is these that GOD know will forever go to hell and the question that I ask the arminians is: why can't a soverign GOD save them? Is it because GOD is to weak?

God is soverign and HE is NOT weak.........

God will save whom HE will and HE will damn those who HE choses to damn, and no man can decide agianst HIM and force GOD to do other wise.

 

[reformedbeliever]

It is true that the wicked has GOD's wrath for them on the day of judgment and it is these that GOD know will forever go to hell and the question that I ask the arminians is: why can't a soverign GOD save them? Is it because GOD is to weak?

God is soverign and HE is NOT weak.........

God will save whom HE will and HE will damn those who HE choses to damn, and no man can decide agianst HIM and force GOD to do other wise.

Wow.... AAA. Why don't you just give us your opinion?... lol J/k
I agree with you.

 

[webdog]

why can't a soverign GOD save them? Is it because GOD is to weak?

Has nothing to do with weakness. They aren't saved because they did not meet His requirements. Simple.

God is soverign and HE is NOT weak.........

You're preaching to the choir.

God will save whom HE will and HE will damn those who HE choses to damn,

Not entirelly...God saves those who have faith in Christ, and damns those who don't. This isn't a random decision.

and no man can decide agianst HIM and force GOD to do other wise.

Millions die daily deciding against Him, but I do agree that we can't force Him to do anything. Actually, we can if you think about it. Scripture tells us if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin. Sounds like if we confess our sin, He has to forgive us per His own requirements.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Has nothing to do with weakness. They aren't saved because they did not meet His requirements. Simple.

You're preaching to the choir.

Not entirelly...God saves those who have faith in Christ, and damns those who don't. This isn't a random decision.

Millions die daily deciding against Him, but I do agree that we can't force Him to do anything. Actually, we can if you think about it. Scripture tells us if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin. Sounds like if we confess our sin, He has to forgive us per His own requirements.

Amen brother. I tell em to please believe, so that they would be predestined to do so.

 

[npetreley]

If you read the whole Wikipedia entry on prevenient grace (among many other definitions and sites that treat it both pro and con), you'll see that most of those who hold to it assert total depravity. Prevenient grace gives us enough power to make a decision, but not enough to actually ensure that we make the right decision (it is left to our free will). Once we make the "right" decision, we are saved.

Like I said in so many words in another thread, all you have to do is substitute prevenient grace for regeneration, and you've got the same order of steps as election. The only difference is that it cranks the knob of regeneration down far enough to give man the credit or blame for making the right/wrong decision.

 

[skypair]

Matt 11:21-27 refutes the idea that God wants all to be saved. If He wanted all to be saved then why didn't He work the mighty works so they would have been saved? He foresaw it. It is not because Jesus had not come yet, because faith is the saving. Abraham was saved by faith.

Those were the signs of the Son of man and it wasn't time for Him to appear yet. You're not "questioning the potter," are you?

skypair

 

[JDale]

Wow. Just checked in this morning. Sounds like npe and AAA have it all figured out. Got God in their nice, ornate, Calvinist box and can explain His every thought and deed. No need for me to comment further and reveal my (evidently long and considerable) ignorance.

JDale

 

[skypair]

why can't a soverign GOD save them? Is it because GOD is to weak?

God is soverign and HE is NOT weak.........

God will save whom HE will and HE will damn those who HE choses to damn, and no man can decide agianst HIM and force GOD to do other wise.

That is a slanderous statement --- as if man isn't the one responsible for his own damning!

Have you ever heard the statement (which would halp you understand soverignty, no doubt), "with authority comes responsibility?" You can't have the responsibility for sin unless you have the authority to commit or not commit it. If you are just doing what you were "designed to do," then it was the "Designer's" authority that made you that way and His responsibility for you doing so (course, rebe will say "somehow that can't be true." :laugh.

There is NO responsibility for sin without the freedom/choice/authority/sovereignty to do right.

(Duck, JDale! Incoming!! :laugh: )


skypair

 

[JDale]

Wow. Just checked in this morning. Sounds like npe and AAA have it all figured out. Got God in their nice, ornate, Calvinist box and can explain His every thought and deed. No need for me to comment further and reveal my (evidently long and considerable) ignorance.

JDale

Just a question...

Which God is "stronger," the God who HAS to control EVERYTHING by command and decree, or the God who foresees and KNOWS all things, yet allows His creation to choose within His sovereign dominion?

I submit that the God who cannot handle our (quite pitiful, finite and limited) abilities of choice and remain sovereign and in complete control, is the weaker.

That man HAS "free will" does not compromise God's sovereignty at all -- to the contrary, man's free will ENHANCES it.

JDale

 

[npetreley]

That man HAS "free will" does not compromise God's sovereignty at all -- to the contrary, man's free will ENHANCES it.

I'd love to see some scriptural support for THAT. :laugh:

 

[~JM~]

Wanted to add this question asked on another forum:

"Does God set the choice between life and death before every man without exception?"

 

[Allan]

It is true that the wicked has GOD's wrath for them on the day of judgment and it is these that GOD know will forever go to hell and the question that I ask the arminians is: why can't a soverign GOD save them? Is it because GOD is to weak?

God is soverign and HE is NOT weak.........

God will save whom HE will and HE will damn those who HE choses to damn, and no man can decide agianst HIM and force GOD to do other wise.

It is as simple as three words that are bound to scripture.

Man is resposible.

It is a question of why CAN'T God save them. Arminians believe God COULD, but set forth in His plan that man be responsible for the truths God reveals to him that the purpose of God might be fulfilled - to faith unto salvation or unbelief unto damantion.

 

[Andy T.]

Just a question...

Which God is "stronger," the God who HAS to control EVERYTHING by command and decree, or the God who foresees and KNOWS all things, yet allows His creation to choose within His sovereign dominion?

I submit that the God who cannot handle our (quite pitiful, finite and limited) abilities of choice and remain sovereign and in complete control, is the weaker.

That man HAS "free will" does not compromise God's sovereignty at all -- to the contrary, man's free will ENHANCES it.

JDale

False dichtomony; at least for me it is. I don't deny "free will" completely. I deny libertarian free will, though. As I have expressed in other threads - God allows man to choose hell. God allows man to choose sin. So in that sense man is free. But on the flip side, the fall of Man is so great that in order for anyone to be saved, God must intervene to the point that it guarantees our voluntary acceptance of the Gospel. Again, those who are saved do so willingly, but only after the work of God in our hearts.

 

[JDale]

False dichtomony; at least for me it is. I don't deny "free will" completely. I deny libertarian free will, though. As I have expressed in other threads - God allows man to choose hell. God allows man to choose sin. So in that sense man is free. But on the flip side, the fall of Man is so great that in order for anyone to be saved, God must intervene to the point that it guarantees our voluntary acceptance of the Gospel. Again, those who are saved do so willingly, but only after the work of God in our hearts.

AH! Bingo! Excellent observation AT! I agree with you! That work that God does in "our hearts" is prevenient grace! The working of conscience, common grace, general revelation and then the "special revelation" of the Gospel, and the drawing of the Holy Spirit!

As someone else observed, the big difference at this point is that Calvinists place regeneration here, while Arminians place prevenient grace here. Calvinism removed the inconvenient and ill-fitting rogue element of "free will" and ties salvation up in a nice little predestined, irresistible package, with a pretty perseverance bow on top. No "lose strings."

(Sorry guys, it just sounded too cute to pass up -- I'm joking!)

Prevenient grace, on the other hand, leaves the responsibility and the opportunity in the hands of Man -- enabling him to choose -- and holding Him accountable for the choice. And God foreknows it all, and it doesn't threaten Him or His sovereignty whatsoever.

JDale

 

[reformedbeliever]

AH! Bingo! Excellent observation AT! I agree with you! That work that God does in "our hearts" is prevenient grace! The working of conscience, common grace, general revelation and then the "special revelation" of the Gospel, and the drawing of the Holy Spirit!

As someone else observed, the big difference at this point is that Calvinists place regeneration here, while Arminians place prevenient grace here. Calvinism removed the inconvenient and ill-fitting rogue element of "free will" and ties salvation up in a nice little predestined, irresistible package, with a pretty perseverance bow on top. No "lose strings."

(Sorry guys, it just sounded too cute to pass up -- I'm joking!)

Prevenient grace, on the other hand, leaves the responsibility and the opportunity in the hands of Man -- enabling him to choose -- and holding Him accountable for the choice. And God foreknows it all, and it doesn't threaten Him or His sovereignty whatsoever.

JDale

Well the problem with that, among others, is that He does not give prevenient grace to all. There are many who never hear the Gospel. Now you might say that they know God by His general revelation or special revelation of Himself, but that would be to say that there is another way other than Jesus Himself. There is no other name in heaven in which a person must be saved. Not all hear about Jesus.

 

[webdog]

There are many who never hear the Gospel.

I just wanted to add that this is something that is said quite often here on the BB. This is not a fact, but is an assumption only, for our guests reading this thread. This cannot be proven by Scripture.

*now taking you back to our regularly scheduled program....

 

[Andy T.]

JDale,

Ultimately, our difference lies in that I see all good in this world as the direct result of the active work of God, while you let man retain some amount of the glory (even if it is only .0005%). I realize that may come across as dismissive of your view - it's not intended to be, but that is how I see it. And I realize that in the Classical Arminian view, God does get the overwhelming majority of the glory. And I also realize that we agree on the essentials of the Gospel, which is why I will gladly fellowship with you.

 

[Benjamin]

Well the problem with that, among others, is that He does not give prevenient grace to all. There are many who never hear the Gospel. Now you might say that they know God by His general revelation or special revelation of Himself, but that would be to say that there is another way other than Jesus Himself. There is no other name in heaven in which a person must be saved. Not all hear about Jesus.

Not even if they respond to the revelation and ask?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Not even if they respond to the revelation and ask?

Not unless you want to say there is another way other than Jesus. Jesus Himself said that He is the only way.
It is the perfect sacrifice of Jesus and the application of That attonement to us that makes us justified, found not guilty or found to be righteous. We are less than perfect, and unless God can only see His Son when we are judged, we will be damned.

 

[Benjamin]

Not unless you want to say there is another way other than Jesus. Jesus Himself said that He is the only way.
It is the perfect sacrifice of Jesus and the application of That attonement to us that makes us justified, found not guilty or found to be righteous. We are less than perfect, and unless God can only see His Son when we are judged, we will be damned.

If they ask to know God wouldn't they get Jesus?