Prevenient Grace

[Allan]

Hello Allan.



Since Abraham is the father of the faith I should imagine we call Him the same as he called Him. The faith has not changed.

DT 32:6 Is this the way you repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
PS 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'
ISA 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father , Prince of Peace.

ISA 63:16 But you are our Father , though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

JER 3:4 Have you not just called to me: `My Father , my friend from my youth,
JER 3:19 "I myself said, " `How gladly would I treat you like sons and give you a desirable land, the most beautiful inheritance of any nation.' I thought you would call me `Father' and not turn away from following me.

PR 4:3 When I was a boy in my father's house, still tender, and an only child of my mother, 4 he taught me and said, "Lay hold of my words with all your heart; keep my commands and you will live.

I think our brothers and sisters knew Him as Father God. Would you like to comment on this Allan as it seems you use it to support your contention.

john.

Actually, some of those you quote do not deal with God as in a Father/Son releationship. Most you quote actaully deal with the term 'Father' in the sence of originator or beginning of... But yes there are some that deal with the Relationship aspect. I never said there were none. You need to get you a good lexicon. Not every time you see a particular word does it mean what you hope it does.

However let me clarify what I meant but my statement.

where by we actually recieve the Holy Spirit and are in a relationship the OT saints never experienced. For unlike us, they could not call The God - our Father.

If you will notice I stated our relationship is different and dramitcally so (concerning in part the Holy Spirit) which expounds to the differing aspect of the OT relationship with God. I refer to a relationship in which we know the Father and that He IS the Father where by we address Him specifically as God the Father. Something the OT saints did extradinarily few times to almost never. In the OT they prayed to the Almighty God (in many differing name that addressed different charactoristics), we in the NT are taught to Pray to "Our Father who art in Heaven". The NT saints have the Spirit of God indwelling and sealing us. The OT did not. This is some of what I am refering to when I say they could not call the God - our Father. (in the understanding and sence that we do)

However, if you will also notice I stated COULD NOT, I did not say CAN NOT.

The OT saints had a relationship with God but it was not something they understood very well if at all most of the time. It was a hidden or shroudded truth that they enjoyed but were on the whole ignorant of. This is why the we do not read consistantly in the prayers of the OT saints about God their Father and they His sons. They did refer to themselves as Children of God but in relation to their devotion to Him and His choosing them as His people. The relationship was something a small FEW were able to see with greater clarity than the mass through out their history, but still they did not share the Father/son Relationship we NT saints enjoy and to the fulness we enjoy it.

Our relationship is manifested and clearly understood in Christ. We are given the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Adoption Into Gods Family) bearing witness we are His children. And the Spirit of God will NEVER leave us but stay and reveal, lead, and guide us into a deeper relationship with God the Father. The OT saints did not have this relationship nor this type understanding concerning God their Father. It rested mostly on the form of a Title representing oringinator or beginning of...

No, John. We do not share the same type of relationship with God the Father that the OT saints did. We find consistantly God seen as Master and Ruler or greatest authority through out the OT with occational mentions of God being their Father (as in relational Father/son) but in the NT we see God as both Ruler AND Father predominantly and consistantly in the NT writtings.

Though we both are saved by faith we are different in purpose. They are Israel and we are the Church and both are children of One True and Living God.

 

[johnp.]

But yes there are some that deal with the Relationship aspect. I never said there were none.

You never said there were none you said: For unlike us, they could not call The God - our Father.
You say: But yes there are some that deal with the Relationship aspect.

DT 32:6 Is this the way you repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

Why could they not call their Father Father? How was Jesus made in every way like His brothers if there are two sets of brothers? Heb 2:17.

If you will notice I stated our relationship is different and dramitcally so (concerning in part the Holy Spirit) which expounds to the differing aspect of the OT relationship with God.

I thought Elijah was a man just like me. I see no difference in the OT saints. One woman gave her last meal to a man of God, some put all their money, little they had, into the collection plate, and what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
HEB 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.


What's the difference you say? Are we not equal to that?

I refer to a relationship in which we know the Father and that He IS the Father where by we address Him specifically as God the Father. Something the OT saints did extradinarily few times to almost never.

What is it, never or they did? How many times do we read that God causes wars in the NT, has He stopped enticing nations against each other because we do not read that very often or never in the NT?

However, if you will also notice I stated COULD NOT, I did not say CAN NOT. (For unlike us, they could not call The God - our Father.)

The God? COULD NOT and CAN NOT? Now this statement of yours: However let me clarify what I meant but my statement. : Has lost it's meaning. If you wrote: For unlike us, they cannot call The God - our Father. : Leaves it in the present tense and would have conflicted with the history of the subject. They cannot now can they? Matt 23:38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

The OT saints had a relationship with God but it was not something they understood very well if at all most of the time.

1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

They were trying to figure out the coming of Christ just like we do.

1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

No, John. We do not share the same type of relationship with God the Father that the OT saints did.

Show me a scripture that forbids the Israelites to call Him Father.

Though we both are saved by faith we are different in purpose. They are Israel and we are the Church and both are children of One True and Living God.

Not all Israel are Israel as not all in the Church are Church. Israel the nation was only a shadow of the reality. You are transfixed in the shadows, the reality of Israel is that it is the Church and Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Col 3:11.

john.

 

[reformedbeliever]

You never said there were none you said: For unlike us, they could not call The God - our Father.
You say: But yes there are some that deal with the Relationship aspect.

DT 32:6 Is this the way you repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

Why could they not call their Father Father? How was Jesus made in every way like His brothers if there are two sets of brothers? Heb 2:17.



I thought Elijah was a man just like me. I see no difference in the OT saints. One woman gave her last meal to a man of God, some put all their money, little they had, into the collection plate, and what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
HEB 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.


What's the difference you say? Are we not equal to that?



What is it, never or they did? How many times do we read that God causes wars in the NT, has He stopped enticing nations against each other because we do not read that very often or never in the NT?



The God? COULD NOT and CAN NOT? Now this statement of yours: However let me clarify what I meant but my statement. : Has lost it's meaning. If you wrote: For unlike us, they cannot call The God - our Father. : Leaves it in the present tense and would have conflicted with the history of the subject. They cannot now can they? Matt 23:38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "



1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

They were trying to figure out the coming of Christ just like we do.

1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.



Show me a scripture that forbids the Israelites to call Him Father.



Not all Israel are Israel as not all in the Church are Church. Israel the nation was only a shadow of the reality. You are transfixed in the shadows, the reality of Israel is that it is the Church and Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Col 3:11.

john.

Where did Johnp go?

 

[webdog]

Where did Johnp go?

I've noticed his pattern is to post for a couple months, then take a few off. If I recall, he can't log onto this name anymore either (something with his password). I believe he goes under the nam "johnny cool" or something.