Priest and Wine

[steaver]

The wine debate thread is about to close and I still have a couple of questions for the pro-alcohol crowd, so I am starting this one.

Q1; Is it ok for a Pastor to drink alcoholic beverages? If not, because of what passage of scripture.

Q2; Would this apply to unbelievers or only brothers in Christ? Rom 14:21[It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.


Q3; It appears that you brothers and sisters that are here defending your drinking rights are offending us who believe it is wrong. So do you intend to stop drinking for the sake of those of us here who are offended by it?

How about those in your own home congregation who are offended by alcohol drinking? Do you care? Do you love them enough to tell them you will not drink alcohol anymore?

It would make my very happy if you all promised me that you will stop drinking alcohol and promise to never touch it again. Care to make me happy? Or don't you care if I am happy?

 

[Zenas]

The wine debate thread is about to close and I still have a couple of questions for the pro-alcohol crowd, so I am starting this one.

Q1; Is it ok for a Pastor to drink alcoholic beverages? If not, because of what passage of scripture.

I think so, but am not prepared to debate the issue. 1 Timothy 3:3 and Titus 1:7, as presented in the KJV, say "not given to wine," or words to that effect. If the KJV is correct, notwithstanding all the other translations saying something like "not addicted to wine", then it is not OK for a pastor to drink alcoholic beverages. However, like I said, the KJV appears to be alone in this position.

Q2; Would this apply to unbelievers or only brothers in Christ? Rom 14:21[It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

This is a moot question because unbelievers are not bound by scripture. They are going to Hell anyway so there is no reason for them to concern themselves with the fine points of scripture.

Q3; It appears that you brothers and sisters that are here defending your drinking rights are offending us who believe it is wrong. So do you intend to stop drinking for the sake of those of us here who are offended by it?

No. If you came to my house I would refrain from serving wine because I am aware of your sensibilities.

How about those in your own home congregation who are offended by alcohol drinking? Do you care? Do you love them enough to tell them you will not drink alcohol anymore?

No. See answer to Q3 above. By the way, Steaver, this question is a lot like the one about "Have you stopped beating your wife?".

It would make my very happy if you all promised me that you will stop drinking alcohol and promise to never touch it again. Care to make me happy? Or don't you care if I am happy?

Not that much. :smilewinkgrin: If you were my wife, or even my mother, I might consider it but you're not, so I won't.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Christ and His apostles do not appear to have abstained from the use of wine. The weaker brother principle is too often used to prevent Christians from exercising genuine Christian liberty.

When I first entered the ministry, I was not willing to buy IBC Root Beer, because I was afraid I might cause some brother to stumble by purchasing and drinking beer. This put me in an unnecessary and utterly ridiculous state of bondage.

 

[steaver]

Christ and His apostles do not appear to have abstained from the use of wine. The weaker brother principle is too often used to prevent Christians from exercising genuine Christian liberty.

When I first entered the ministry, I was not willing to buy IBC Root Beer, because I was afraid I might cause some brother to stumble by purchasing and drinking beer. This put me in an unnecessary and utterly ridiculous state of bondage.

Bondage??

Well, we're not talking about rootbeer.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

The best rule is, drink but don't get drunk. It is a sin to get drunk.

 

[Tom Butler]

Christ and His apostles do not appear to have abstained from the use of wine. The weaker brother principle is too often used to prevent Christians from exercising genuine Christian liberty.

When I first entered the ministry, I was not willing to buy IBC Root Beer, because I was afraid I might cause some brother to stumble by purchasing and drinking beer. This put me in an unnecessary and utterly ridiculous state of bondage.[/QUOTE]

Never thought of it that way, before. Lemme think about it.

I don't drink, don't care to, don't like the taste. So I get no credit for my teetotaler-ness. However, if I did drink, I would not stop completely. I would just stop drinking in front of those who might stumble because of it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The best rule is, drink but don't get drunk. It is a sin to get drunk.

There is no command either way and to suggest there is to pervert the scriptures.

 

[annsni]

The wine debate thread is about to close and I still have a couple of questions for the pro-alcohol crowd, so I am starting this one.

Q1; Is it ok for a Pastor to drink alcoholic beverages? If not, because of what passage of scripture.

Yes.

Q2; Would this apply to unbelievers or only brothers in Christ? Rom 14:21[It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

The verse? The verse says "brother" but I'd use that for anyone as well. I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone.

Q3; It appears that you brothers and sisters that are here defending your drinking rights are offending us who believe it is wrong. So do you intend to stop drinking for the sake of those of us here who are offended by it?

Those who are militant anti-alcohol offend those of us who see the Scriptures say what it says - that moderate use of alcohol is OK. So what do we do?

How about those in your own home congregation who are offended by alcohol drinking? Do you care? Do you love them enough to tell them you will not drink alcohol anymore?

I do not drink right now but if I did, I would not drink around them. I would not stop drinking all together but I would not drink in their presence. Would you stop listening to the music you do if a person in your congregation was offended by it? How about going to the movies? Would you stop going to the movies? How far do we take that thinking?

It would make my very happy if you all promised me that you will stop drinking alcohol and promise to never touch it again. Care to make me happy? Or don't you care if I am happy?

It is not my job to make you happy. If you cannot be happy unless others do your wishes, then you will have a very sad life.

 

[rockytopsgt]

Zenas the kjv rendering of Timothy and Titus and means the same as modern translations, just using different phrasing.
Steaver, you act like those "defending alcohol" are drunks defending a habit. I an defending Christ. You attack His actions with your words. The bible is clear. you can't make something a sin just because you want to.
To recap the Bible for you
-wine is good...a gift.
-drunkeness is an abuse of that gift and a sin.
seems pretty clear.

 

[Amy.G]

If there is nothing wrong or undesirable about drinking alcohol, how can it make someone stumble? My definition of stumble is to sin. How does doing something perfectly innocent and good make someone sin?

I've never seen anything good come from drinking alcohol.

 

[rockytopsgt]

If there is nothing wrong or undesirable about drinking alcohol, how can it make someone stumble? My definition of stumble is to sin. How does doing something perfectly innocent and good make someone sin?

I've never seen anything good come from drinking alcohol.

Read Romans 14...the entire chapter. Paul explains it well.

 

[annsni]

If there is nothing wrong or undesirable about drinking alcohol, how can it make someone stumble? My definition of stumble is to sin. How does doing something perfectly innocent and good make someone sin?

I've never seen anything good come from drinking alcohol.

There are many things that could make someone stumble that there is inherently nothing wrong with it. Paul speaks of even meat causing one to stumble. Just because it causes one to stumble doesn't mean it's bad or sinful. Remember that the internet causes one to stumble who is addicted to porn but that doesn't mean the internet is bad.

I've seen good come from alcohol and I've seen bad come from alcohol. It depends on the situation and the people involved.

 

[Amy.G]

There are many things that could make someone stumble that there is inherently nothing wrong with it. Paul speaks of even meat causing one to stumble. Just because it causes one to stumble doesn't mean it's bad or sinful. Remember that the internet causes one to stumble who is addicted to porn but that doesn't mean the internet is bad.

I've seen good come from alcohol and I've seen bad come from alcohol. It depends on the situation and the people involved.

So I shouldn't use the internet around certain people?

What good have you seen come from the use of alcohol? I have seen alcoholics, drunks, drunk drivers, wasted money...(in my own family). I have been drunk myself in my (much) younger days, and I didn't know it until it was too late.



Isn't the reason you won't drink now because you are afraid you might cause young people who you minister to to stumble? You know that the stumbling they might do is get drunk, drive drunk or get dependent on the alcohol right?

 

[annsni]

So I shouldn't use the internet around certain people?

Just saying that we need to look in a larger context than just a pet "sin".

What good have you seen come from the use of alcohol? I have seen alcoholics, drunks, drunk drivers, wasted money...(in my own family). I have been drunk myself in my (much) younger days, and I didn't know it until it was too late.

I have tasted awfully good food. I've been around a large gathering of family where there was moderate wine intake and enjoyed the fun with the family (no one got blitzed or even near it). I've personally enjoyed the stress reducing thus headache reducing a 1/2 glass of wine used to give me.

Isn't the reason you won't drink now because you are afraid you might cause young people who you minister to to stumble? You know that the stumbling they might do is get drunk, drive drunk or get dependent on the alcohol right?

Yes, that is the stumbling they might do. Additionally, they might stumble in thinking that even taking a sip of alcohol is a cardinal sin that will send them to hell. I do have alcohol in my home and will cook with it quite regularly. They learn from me that there is liberty to partake and sometimes there is wisdom to decide to not. But I will not put a stumbling block in front of them that there is a line drawn that is not drawn. I don't like to lie to my students.

 

[steaver]

I have tasted awfully good food. I've been around a large gathering of family where there was moderate wine intake and enjoyed the fun with the family (no one got blitzed or even near it). I've personally enjoyed the stress reducing thus headache reducing a 1/2 glass of wine used to give me.
.

Alcoholic drinks contain ethanol, which can contribute to headaches through various mechanisms. Headaches begin from blood vessel vasodilation and ethanol can prompt these changes. In addition, ethanol is a diuretic and prompts the urinary loss of several vitamins and minerals, as well as causing dehydration.

http://www.headacheexpert.co.uk/AlcoholHeadaches.html

Do you really believe alcohol cures headaches?

 

[annsni]

Do you really believe alcohol cures headaches?

From personal experience - yes. I cannot have red wine at all because that will GIVE me headaches but there are certain headaches I get (most likely tension headaches) that wine will help to decrease or diminish completely.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

The wine debate thread is about to close and I still have a couple of questions for the pro-alcohol crowd, so I am starting this one.

Q1; Is it ok for a Pastor to drink alcoholic beverages? If not, because of what passage of scripture.

Q2; Would this apply to unbelievers or only brothers in Christ? Rom 14:21[It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.


Q3; It appears that you brothers and sisters that are here defending your drinking rights are offending us who believe it is wrong. So do you intend to stop drinking for the sake of those of us here who are offended by it?

How about those in your own home congregation who are offended by alcohol drinking? Do you care? Do you love them enough to tell them you will not drink alcohol anymore?

It would make my very happy if you all promised me that you will stop drinking alcohol and promise to never touch it again. Care to make me happy? Or don't you care if I am happy?

Q1. Yes.

Q2. Brothers (and sisters) in Christ.

Q3. Not sure how my drinking alcohol is a stumbling block for you. Normally, if I'm invited to someone's home for dinner, I will bring a bottle of wine. (Last time, I made sangria and it was delish!) However, if I'm invited to someone's home and I know that they do not drink, I will bring something else, perhaps dessert. While it's not a stumbling block to them (at least to those I have in my mind), it's just plain courteous to bring something else.

Q4. This is a non-issue in my congregation.

 

[steaver]

. By the way, Steaver, this question is a lot like the one about "Have you stopped beating your wife?". .

I've never understood why people think this is a difficult question. My answer would be "I have never beaten my wife, has someone told you that I have?" What's so difficult about that?

You made my point. Many of the same people who cite Romans 14 as defense for their drinking problem could care less what their brother really thinks about it. They like their drug.

 

[steaver]

Q3. Not sure how my drinking alcohol is a stumbling block for you. Normally, if I'm invited to someone's home for dinner, I will bring a bottle of wine. (Last time, I made sangria and it was delish!) However, if I'm invited to someone's home and I know that they do not drink, I will bring something else, perhaps dessert. While it's not a stumbling block to them (at least to those I have in my mind), it's just plain courteous to bring something else.

It's not a stumbling block for me. The question was about being offended. Stumbling block means I might think it is ok to drink alcohol. It does offend me though. So will you stop please?

 

[steaver]

From personal experience - yes. I cannot have red wine at all because that will GIVE me headaches but there are certain headaches I get (most likely tension headaches) that wine will help to decrease or diminish completely.

You are a wonder to science sister. You should volunteer yourself for biological study. You can drink scotch and never feel an effect from the alcohol and the alcohol can actually take away your headache even though science declares that it causes headaches.