Priest and Wine

[Zenas]

I've never understood why people think this is a difficult question. My answer would be "I have never beaten my wife, has someone told you that I have?" What's so difficult about that?

Your answer is nonresponsive to the question which requires a yes or no answer.

You made my point. Many of the same people who cite Romans 14 as defense for their drinking problem could care less what their brother really thinks about it. They like their drug.

So where do you draw the line? Consider these hypotheticals:

(1) I have a pool in my back yard with a beautiful wrought iron fence that keeps out children and animals but permits others to see in. My wife uses it regularly, dressed in a modest one piece swim suit designed for swimming. My next door neighbor, who is a fundamentalist and believes all public "bathing" is sinful is agast and highly offended every time my wife goes for a swim. Should she quit swimming? Build a privacy fence? What say you?

(2) Same scenario, except add a charcoal grill and a Hindu neighbor on the other side. I grill the best steaks money can buy every weekend and the aroma blows in the direction of my Hindu neighbor. He is agast and highly offended. Should I stop grilling out? What say you?

(3) You, Steaver, live right behind me. Our back yards meet and once a month when I fire up that grill I have 40 of my closest friends over for a party. And . . . gasp . . . guess what? I have a keg of Michelob out on the pool deck. And people are actually drinking it. You are not agast because you have come to expect such things from your otherwise friendly, helpful and gracious neighbor. But you are still offended that I permit, even encourage, consumption of alcohol before your very eyes. Should I stop having these parties for your sake? Invite you over hoping you will stop complaining? What say you?

 

[DHK]

Your answer is nonresponsive to the question which requires a yes or no answer. So where do you draw the line? Consider these hypotheticals:

(1) I have a pool in my back yard with a beautiful wrought iron fence that keeps out children and animals but permits others to see in. My wife uses it regularly, dressed in a modest one piece swim suit designed for swimming. My next door neighbor, who is a fundamentalist and believes all public "bathing" is sinful is agast and highly offended every time my wife goes for a swim. Should she quit swimming? Build a privacy fence? What say you?

She should quit swimming or you should have a place without a swimming pool. I certainly wouldn't want to put my wife or daughter on display for this wicked public to see and gawk at no matter how modest you may say a swimsuit may be. It must be nice to live in the lap of such luxury.

(2) Same scenario, except add a charcoal grill and a Hindu neighbor on the other side. I grill the best steaks money can buy every weekend and the aroma blows in the direction of my Hindu neighbor. He is agast and highly offended. Should I stop grilling out? What say you?

Apples and oranges. Those that immigrate to our nation must learn to adapt to our culture. Are we going to become a Hindu nation and forsake our Judeo/Christian ethic, the foundation upon which our nation was founded? Are we going to convert to a nation based on eastern mysticism based on the "Oprah Winfrey theology." The Hindu needs to adapt to the American way of life and realize that people are going to eat at MacDonalds and when they pass by a burger joint they will smell burgers. I don't see the difference.

(3) You, Steaver, live right behind me. Our back yards meet and once a month when I fire up that grill I have 40 of my closest friends over for a party. And . . . gasp . . . guess what? I have a keg of Michelob out on the pool deck. And people are actually drinking it. You are not agast because you have come to expect such things from your otherwise friendly, helpful and gracious neighbor. But you are still offended that I permit, even encourage, consumption of alcohol before your very eyes. Should I stop having these parties for your sake? Invite you over hoping you will stop complaining? What say you?

Again, apples and oranges.
About a month ago I officiated at a wedding where relatives on both sides of the family were unsaved. There was an official request, therefore, that at the reception it would be alcohol free. Right next door to the reception hall was a bar. Afterward I was not offended when my unsaved relatives went to the bar. I can't control their lives. I wouldn't even try to. But I would have been greatly offended if the best man, or bridesmaid, or some other prominent church member went with them and had a drink at the bar. For me to see them drinking, I would have been greatly offended. And I believe their testimony would have been greatly compromised in the eyes of the relatives of both groom and bride.

 

[steaver]

Your answer is nonresponsive to the question which requires a yes or no answer.

It "requires"? Says who? God?

So where do you draw the line? Consider these hypotheticals:

(1) I have a pool in my back yard with a beautiful wrought iron fence that keeps out children and animals but permits others to see in. My wife uses it regularly, dressed in a modest one piece swim suit designed for swimming. My next door neighbor, who is a fundamentalist and believes all public "bathing" is sinful is agast and highly offended every time my wife goes for a swim. Should she quit swimming? Build a privacy fence? What say you?

Privacy fence would be best.

(2) Same scenario, except add a charcoal grill and a Hindu neighbor on the other side. I grill the best steaks money can buy every weekend and the aroma blows in the direction of my Hindu neighbor. He is agast and highly offended. Should I stop grilling out? What say you?

Not sure what your saying has offended him, the smoke? Or the meat? If you mean the meat then I would use the opportunity to share the gospel with him. I would not stop eating the meat since he is not a brother in Christ. If it's the smoke, then out of respect I would try to avoid smokng him out.

(3) You, Steaver, live right behind me. Our back yards meet and once a month when I fire up that grill I have 40 of my closest friends over for a party. And . . . gasp . . . guess what? I have a keg of Michelob out on the pool deck. And people are actually drinking it. You are not agast because you have come to expect such things from your otherwise friendly, helpful and gracious neighbor. But you are still offended that I permit, even encourage, consumption of alcohol before your very eyes. Should I stop having these parties for your sake? Invite you over hoping you will stop complaining? What say you

It would offend me very much. And I believe it would be ungodly as well.

1Pe 4:1¶Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

It's not a stumbling block for me. The question was about being offended. Stumbling block means I might think it is ok to drink alcohol. It does offend me though. So will you stop please?

My wife and I had a wonderful pinot noir with dinner last night -- boliche, arroz con frijoles negros and plantanos maduros. So, how does this offend you, my friend?

Are you also offended that I occasionally like a good single malt with a cigar? That I love going to the theatre? Or to movies? The list can go on and on...

 

[Dr. Walter]

She should quit swimming or you should have a place without a swimming pool. I certainly wouldn't want to put my wife or daughter on display for this wicked public to see and gawk at no matter how modest you may say a swimsuit may be. It must be nice to live in the lap of such luxury.

Apples and oranges. Those that immigrate to our nation must learn to adapt to our culture. Are we going to become a Hindu nation and forsake our Judeo/Christian ethic, the foundation upon which our nation was founded? Are we going to convert to a nation based on eastern mysticism based on the "Oprah Winfrey theology." The Hindu needs to adapt to the American way of life and realize that people are going to eat at MacDonalds and when they pass by a burger joint they will smell burgers. I don't see the difference.

Again, apples and oranges.
About a month ago I officiated at a wedding where relatives on both sides of the family were unsaved. There was an official request, therefore, that at the reception it would be alcohol free. Right next door to the reception hall was a bar. Afterward I was not offended when my unsaved relatives went to the bar. I can't control their lives. I wouldn't even try to. But I would have been greatly offended if the best man, or bridesmaid, or some other prominent church member went with them and had a drink at the bar. For me to see them drinking, I would have been greatly offended. And I believe their testimony would have been greatly compromised in the eyes of the relatives of both groom and bride.

Well said.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

She should quit swimming or you should have a place without a swimming pool. I certainly wouldn't want to put my wife or daughter on display for this wicked public to see and gawk at no matter how modest you may say a swimsuit may be. It must be nice to live in the lap of such luxury.

All he said is that "My next door neighbor, who is a fundamentalist and believes all public "bathing" is sinful is agast and highly offended every time my wife goes for a swim."

I would hope that my fundamentalist neighbors would not be considered the "wicked public" and that he or she wouldn't "gawk." So the question remains, should his wife not swim in her own pool in her own back yard simply because the neighbors believe that public swimming is sinful?

 

[Grace&Truth]

All he said is that "My next door neighbor, who is a fundamentalist and believes all public "bathing" is sinful is agast and highly offended every time my wife goes for a swim."

I would hope that my fundamentalist neighbors would not be considered the "wicked public" and that he or she wouldn't "gawk." So the question remains, should his wife not swim in her own pool in her own back yard simply because the neighbors believe that public swimming is sinful?

But in this particular situation you would be putting the responsibility on your neighbor and disregarding his right to enjoy his own back yard because your wife would be enjoying hers. Being a woman myself if we (hubby and I) were to put in a swimming pool it would be our responsibility to put up a privacy fence so as to guard me from gawking eyes as well as from me causing a neighbor (saved or not) from lusting. So you see the principle is that your so called liberty can not be at someone elses expense. The same would be true of loud Parties & Music. As a Christian would I not want to be a blessing to my neighbors (saved or not) and not a stumbling block???? This sounds more like a rebellious attitude toward a brother who is endevouring to live godly in this present world.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

But in this particular situation you would be putting the responsibility on your neighbor and disregarding his right to enjoy his own back yard because your wife would be enjoying hers. Being a woman myself if we (hubby and I) were to put in a swimming pool it would be our responsibility to put up a privacy fence so as to guard me from gawking eyes as well as from me causing a neighbor (saved or not) from lusting. So you see the principle is that your so called liberty can not be at someone elses expense. The same would be true of loud Parties & Music. As a Christian would I not want to be a blessing to my neighbors (saved or not) and not a stumbling block???? This sounds more like a rebellious attitude toward a brother who is endevouring to live godly in this present world.

I understand your comments. But I think you are missing the point. Here is the quote again from Zenas...

"I have a pool in my back yard with a beautiful wrought iron fence that keeps out children and animals but permits others to see in. My wife uses it regularly, dressed in a modest one piece swim suit designed for swimming. My next door neighbor, who is a fundamentalist and believes all public "bathing" is sinful is agast and highly offended every time my wife goes for a swim. Should she quit swimming? Build a privacy fence? What say you?"

The issue that he brought up is not that it is causing the fundamentalist neighbor to gawk or to lust (she is wearing a modest one piece). Instead, it offends his neighbor because he believes that public swimming is sinful.

So the questions are ... Should his wife stop swimming? Should he build a privacy fence? If it offends the neighbors, should the neighbors build their own privacy fence?

BTW, nothing was said about parties and loud music.

 

[Grace&Truth]

I understand your comments. But I think you are missing the point. Here is the quote again from Zenas...

"I have a pool in my back yard with a beautiful wrought iron fence that keeps out children and animals but permits others to see in. My wife uses it regularly, dressed in a modest one piece swim suit designed for swimming. My next door neighbor, who is a fundamentalist and believes all public "bathing" is sinful is agast and highly offended every time my wife goes for a swim. Should she quit swimming? Build a privacy fence? What say you?"

The issue that he brought up is not that it is causing the fundamentalist neighbor to gawk or to lust (she is wearing a modest one piece). Instead, it offends his neighbor because he believes that public swimming is sinful.

So the questions are ... Should his wife stop swimming? Should he build a privacy fence? If it offends the neighbors, should the neighbors build their own privacy fence?

BTW, nothing was said about parties and loud music.

I did understand this. The question is "Why" does the Fundamentalist believe puplic swimming is sinful? To my knowledge no Bathing suits are modest today. So what you might think is modest your neighbor might not. In this situation if a person wants to have a swimming pool that is his liberty. However, as a Christian why would you not put up a privacy fence if your yard backs up to your neighbors???? Would that not be you saying "well we have our rights and we don't care what you believe"....I would say to be a good neighbor put up the privacy fence and to have a godly attitude toward your Fundamentalist neighbor and respect his convictions.:thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

So the questions are ... Should his wife stop swimming? Should he build a privacy fence? If it offends the neighbors, should the neighbors build their own privacy fence?

BTW, nothing was said about parties and loud music.

His wife should stop swimming as long as she is in public or even semi-public. It is like the Muslims in this respect. They have the right idea. The body of the woman is reserved for the husband. It is Biblical.

Thus a privacy fence takes care of the problem. She doesn't have to stop swimming if the conditions are met where she is not in public or where others can see. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business. Just make it private and not public.

She is the one that is swimming and allowing the public to see her. It is her problem not the public's.

 

[DHK]

I did understand this. The question is "Why" does the Fundamentalist believe puplic swimming is sinful? To my knowledge no Bathing suits are modest today.

Except for sleeping, my wife never wears anything that could not be worn to church--never! Would you wear your bathing suit to church?

 

[Grace&Truth]

Except for sleeping, my wife never wears anything that could not be worn to church--never! Would you wear your bathing suit to church?

I agree with you DHK....not sure why you are asking me this...But sad to say many Christians don't have a problem with this and they use there so called "Christian Liberty" to defend there rights to dress immodest.

 

[DHK]

I agree with you DHK....not sure why you are asking me this...But sad to say many Christians don't have a problem with this and they use there so called "Christian Liberty" to defend there rights to dress immodest.

Yeah, I think were on the same page. I read your post too quickly and didn't see the "no", preceding the bathing suits. :type:

 

[rockytopsgt]

So, from what I gather this has turned into a discussion about swimming, which is fine because it lends itself nicely to the topic. No one here is saying swimming is wrong in and of itself, just that various circumstances, now being debated, can make it wrong. The same could be applied to the wine discussion. Drinking wine is not a sin for its own sake but circumstances can make it so. This is a matter of circumstance, not permanence. Just because a Christian knows someone who could be made to stumble, or take offense at his moderate consumption does not make him obligated to NEVER partake. He just must take care not to cause offense. See, sometimes tangents can be useful.

Side note:I think these references to alcohol as a habit are not appropriate to the conversation. I would say anyone who was a habitual "user" and needed alcohol has passed the point of moderation.

 

[annsni]

You are a wonder to science sister. You should volunteer yourself for biological study. You can drink scotch and never feel an effect from the alcohol and the alcohol can actually take away your headache even though science declares that it causes headaches.

It's no surprise. One oz. of scotch is the same as 4 oz. of wine or 12 oz. of beer. What's the issue?

As for the headaches, tension headaches are caused by tension in the neck (some of mine are). Wine relaxes and eases tension and it it a vasodilator, meaning it dilates the blood vessels which causes better blood circulation in the neck/head area - thus decreasing the headache. Again - no big mystery.

 

[jaigner]

We're actually talking about public swimming now? Did I wake up in 1928 Los Angeles today or something? Sweet mercy.

So what's the line with the swimming? What is the ratio of bathing suit to skin that is appropriate? This is borne out of blatant legalism.

We all our responsible for our own minds. We need to stop blaming women for lust. That kind of thinking has brought great injustices in the past.

 

[rockytopsgt]

To make it perfectly clear; I do not think public swimming is wrong, I was just using the line of discussion to make a point. : )

 

[sag38]

If I were truly offended by my neighbor's swimming wife I think I'd put up my own privacy fence.

 

[steaver]

My wife and I had a wonderful pinot noir with dinner last night -- boliche, arroz con frijoles negros and plantanos maduros. So, how does this offend you, my friend?

Are you also offended that I occasionally like a good single malt with a cigar? That I love going to the theatre? Or to movies? The list can go on and on...

I cannot be offended by what I have no knowledge of. But you bragging about your alcohol drinking does offend me.

 

[jaigner]

I cannot be offended by what I have no knowledge of. But you bragging about your alcohol drinking does offend me.

I am really sorry that your concern for the behavior of others troubles you so deeply.

Especially when there's nothing wrong with their behavior.