Primitive Baptists beliefs

[PreachTony]

Simple question, "do you agree or disagree with statement that God Himself has settled all eternal aspects of our salvation?"

I've been mulling this one over for a bit, because I want to give you a proper answer. I do believe that God is in control of things, but I cannot bring myself to adopt the point of view that our brother pinoy has taken.

If I adopt pinoy's point of view, then I have to say that my church, and many of the churches in my area, are just wasting time, as the lost don't need preaching. I believe that access to salvation is offered to all. Even as the scripture says "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Yes, I believe Christ has chosen us. But in the theology proposed by pinoy, since some are "unregenerate" and seemingly remain that way, that means Christ has chosen some and not chosen others. So then God, who we are told is Love, has outright created some to eternal life and some to damnation, and He, as you said, "persuades" those He had already set aside to salvation, to believe the Spirit.

I'm certain that's not a really good answer, EWF, but if we were actually speaking face to face I could probably explain things better.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I agree, Rippon. The notion that the unsaved do not need to hear the gospel is so foreign to me. Pinoy explained their point of view, but I'm pretty sure I can't get on board with it. I understand the idea that preaching is for edification of the church, and it can be used as such...but I still hold to the scripture that says it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching to save.

Your profile says you are a writer. Always wanted to be one, but organizing my thoughts doesn't seem to always work for me. I like to collect and compare data, though.

Anyway, here are three verses from 1 Corinthians, including the one you referred to in your statement above, in its complete quote.

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe .

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

Therefore the question "why preach the gospel to the unsaved". Paul clearly states that the preaching of the cross (this IS the gospel I suppose) is to the unsaved (the perishing) foolishness but to us it is the power of God. Do you wish to refute the Holy Spirit's inspiration ?

Three verses down (your proof verse in its complete thought) and I assume since this is Paul in all his eloquence under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit his thoughts are well organized and connected to his words in verse 18 he stresses it pleased God to save those that believe through the foolishness of preaching. Now the obvious problem is if they believed and got saved because of preaching the cross or did they believe the preaching of the cross in all its foolishness because they ARE saved.
I say because they are saved. And they are saved because Christ Jesus did His mission well.
Or would you rather rob Christ of His glory by insisting on your eloquence in preaching the foolishness of the cross as the reason so many souls came to Christ under your ministry.

Then verse 24, Paul again reiterates the power of the cross is glorious (my term) only to those who are called.

Will God call those of whom He had no foreknowledge of ?
I refer you to Romans 8:29-30.
So you see, the eternal salvation of God's own is not an afterthought to God.
It is finished, done, over.
None is yet to be redeemed.
Today, after the fact of the cross, this world is populated by just two kinds of people: the redeemed (eternally saved) and the unredeemed. The heaven-bound, blood-bought, blood-covered, and the damned with no Savior.
Do you propose to add to what God has predetermined will be His only people ?
The cross is past, the blood is shed, the Lord sits in intercession, and awaiting the Father's will for His return.
So, again I ask, what good will the gospel do for those God has left to their sins ?

 

[PreachTony]

Your profile says you are a writer. Always wanted to be one, but organizing my thoughts doesn't seem to always work for me. I like to collect and compare data, though.

I've been writing for as long as I've been able. I started crafting stories in the early 90s, even though they weren't great. I've gotten better since then, when it comes to storytelling.

Anyway, here are three verses from 1 Corinthians, including the one you referred to in your statement above, in its complete quote.

1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe .

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

Therefore the question "why preach the gospel to the unsaved". Paul clearly states that the preaching of the cross (this IS the gospel I suppose) is to the unsaved (the perishing) foolishness but to us it is the power of God. Do you wish to refute the Holy Spirit's inspiration ?

I would never refute the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. However, as far as I can tell, we are allowed to interpret the scripture. My interpretation, as the interpretation I've only ever known from my own study, prayer, and meditation, and from years of ancestors in the ministry, is different from yours.

Three verses down (your proof verse in its complete thought) and I assume since this is Paul in all his eloquence under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit his thoughts are well organized and connected to his words in verse 18 he stresses it pleased God to save those that believe through the foolishness of preaching. Now the obvious problem is if they believed and got saved because of preaching the cross or did they believe the preaching of the cross in all its foolishness because they ARE saved.
I say because they are saved. And they are saved because Christ Jesus did His mission well.
Or would you rather rob Christ of His glory by insisting on your eloquence in preaching the foolishness of the cross as the reason so many souls came to Christ under your minry.

So, should I just retire from the ministry? Should I call my Pastor and say we should no longer preach salvation?

Then verse 24, Paul again reiterates the power of the cross is glorious (my term) only to those who are called.

Will God call those of whom He had no foreknowledge of ?
I refer you to Romans 8:29-30.
So you see, the eternal salvation of God's own is not an afterthought to God.
It is finished, done, over.
None is yet to be redeemed.
Today, after the fact of the cross, this world is populated by just two kinds of people: the redeemed (eternally saved) and the unredeemed. The heaven-bound, blood-bought, blood-covered, and the damned with no Savior.
Do you propose to add to what God has predetermined will be His only people ?
The cross is past, the good is shed, the Lord sits in intercession, and awaiting the Father's will for His return.
So, again I ask, what good will the gospel do for those God has left to their sins ?

Pinoy, I'm sorry, but to me, your understanding of God makes Him sound quite monstrous. Instead of loving and offering of the gift, He's already selected who will and won't be allowed access. He's left people in their sins and not even given them an opportunity to repent and turn from them.

Yet Jesus, looking at Jerusalem, even said "how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!' Why would Jesus say the people were not willing to be gathered when it was He who had decided to not give them the ability to make that choice, and instead left them in their sins?

 

[pinoybaptist]

In continuation, brother PreachTony, am I proposing that no more preaching be done ? Heck, no. Otherwise we of the Primitive Baptist order should also be practicing the same futility, right ?
What I am challenging is the idea that the unsaved are the hell bound whom God has left to the eternal consequences of their sins. They were not created for perdition. Did God cause the fall ? Did He not warn man in and through Adam of the consequences ?
And if man, in Adam, chose sin and perdition, should God be denied His sovereign right to choose whom He will, and bypass whom He will ?
But given the context of the times in which the first church, the apostles, and the ministers called out later, lived in, the preaching was for the eternally saved's TIMELY salvation from the time's idolatries, paganism, doctrinal errors and so on, some issues of which continued down through the ages and even today, albeit as subtly as the serpent's subtility in the garden.
That is the salvation Paul was speaking of to us who are saved, that believe, and are. called.
We are called to teach and preach a cross that has done what it is supposed to do, a Savior Jesus hat is IN FACT, a victorious Savior, to a people redeemed and regenerate. To them, the cross IS the power of God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I've been writing for as long as I've been able. I started crafting stories in the early 90s, even though they weren't great. I've gotten better since then, when it comes to storytelling.



I would never refute the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. However, as far as I can tell, we are allowed to interpret the scripture. My interpretation, as the interpretation I've only ever known from my own study, prayer, and meditation, and from years of ancestors in the ministry, is different from yours.



So, should I just retire from the ministry? Should I call my Pastor and say we should no longer preach salvation?



Pinoy, I'm sorry, but to me, your understanding of God makes Him sound quite monstrous. Instead of loving and offering of the gift, He's already selected who will and won't be allowed access. He's left people in their sins and not even given them an opportunity to repent and turn from them.

Yet Jesus, looking at Jerusalem, even said "how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!' Why would Jesus say the people were not willing to be gathered when it was He who had decided to not give them the ability to make that choice, and instead left them in their sins?

Getting tired of autocorrect, Preach. Not you. I appreciate the way you discuss where others can get caustic, you remain brotherly.
Will continue later, that is, unless the Admins decide this thread is long enough.
Catcha later.
Lord keep you.

 

[PreachTony]

Getting tired of autocorrect, Preach. Not you. I appreciate the way you discuss where others can get caustic, you remain brotherly.
Will continue later, that is, unless the Admins decide this thread is long enough.
Catcha later.
Lord keep you.

Same to you, pinoy. I greatly appreciate a discussion in which both sides can remain brotherly and calm. If I have, by chance, said anything offensive, I hope you will follow Gospel order and come straight to me with the issue. Know that I would do the same. Until we chat again, brother...:jesus:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree and who are those of Rom 8:29 are they not the same as those of Rom 8:23 (And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. )? Are they the same as those of James 1:18 (Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. )? Does, "first," preceding, "fruit," imply there will be other fruit of like kind at some other time?


During this age; Is it, the firstfruits of the Spirit only, who are being taken out of the nations, by God as a people for his name? Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

After this taking out of, the firstfruits, will God, through Christ return? Verse 16 Why? Verse 17 (That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, [the firstfruits of the Spirit who will then be reigning with Christ] saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Show me from scripture where it is said one is predestined to be unsaved.


I do not know what PB's believe. Sorry for the rabbit trail which really isn't a rabbit trail.

I'm sorry brother but I don't have the foggiest notion of what you are attempting to say or the questions you are asking.

 

[Iconoclast]

pinoybaptist

Again I am hampered by big stubby fingers trying to type on a phone with less than four inches of screen so I will simply state my objection to your seeming insistence that everything that comes to pass in this fallen world God predetermined.

There are distinct terms here that you should not conflate. The confession states. God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass. This takes in God allowing the evil acts of angels and men and using them for His purposes.

Like the mosquito that bit you, or might I add, the cockroach that crawls on filth, and then crawls on the food on the table of a hungry family somewhere, or the rat that spread the plague in Europe.
The previous two could result in something evil while the last one did, as we all know.

the fact is...if it happens it was ordained of God to happen.

I refuse to acknowledge God as the active cause of evil

No biblical Baptist believes this.

in order for Him to be the source of good which is what you seem to conform to in your "confession".

There is NO...."in order for him to be"...He is only good all the time.

This view of God reminds me of a nurse who makes a patient ill in order to be the hero who saves the patient.

PYB, with all due respect....I try to avoid this kind of carnal reasoning about God.

He is not like man, or in this case this nurse with selfish motives who does evil. This is a fatally flawed view.

PYB...you are not understanding correctly what we know of as the providence of God. That is the working out of what God decreed in time.
God's eternal purpose unfolded in time.

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The scripture teaches this.I just believe it. He is upholding all things....every single particle...by His word.:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[righteousdude2]

Free to Follow or Deny: Not ELECTED!

I've been mulling this one over for a bit, because I want to give you a proper answer. I do believe that God is in control of things, but I cannot bring myself to adopt the point of view that our brother pinoy has taken.

If I adopt pinoy's point of view, then I have to say that my church, and many of the churches in my area, are just wasting time, as the lost don't need preaching. I believe that access to salvation is offered to all. Even as the scripture says "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Yes, I believe Christ has chosen us. But in the theology proposed by pinoy, since some are "unregenerate" and seemingly remain that way, that means Christ has chosen some and not chosen others. So then God, who we are told is Love, has outright created some to eternal life and some to damnation, and He, as you said, "persuades" those He had already set aside to salvation, to believe the Spirit.

I'm certain that's not a really good answer, EWF, but if we were actually speaking face to face I could probably explain things better.

YOu are not alone in your belief. If Pinoy is correct, there is no need at all for any church on any block in any city in any state. If Pinoy is spot on correct, than Billy Graham, Billy sunday and many others wasted their time holding revivals and rally's around this world.

To believe that there is an elected group that will be saved, is kin to the Jehovah Witnesses claim that only 144,000 will make it to heaven. All thos poor men and women that spent every Saturday handing out their magazines and sharing an invitation to attend their Kingdom Hall, is pure foolishness, because there will only be 144,000 making it to their new kingdom!

Paul tells us in Romans 1:16 (NIV), "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile." Than in Galatians 3:28 (NIV), paul writes, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

Micah Murray states the following points [from this link - a must read] http://redemptionpictures.com/2013/07/13/election/

1. If unconditional election is true, salvation is an arbitrary lottery.
2. If unconditional election is true, God’s creation is an act of cruelty.
3. If unconditional election is true, loving my neighbor is an unfair demand.
4. If unconditional election is true, our natural response will be survivor’s guilt.
5. If unconditional election is true, God cannot be trusted.

FINALLY - This is one more GREAT argument against election salvation! http://www.biblehelp.org/sumsel.htm

 

[Iconoclast]

dude,

This article was horrific and has no scripture in it.The writer says this;
I

I certainly am no theologian, and have no ability or desire to interact with Mr. Piper’s ideas point by point

He cannot interact with anyone...he confuses himself.
This person has no basic understanding of anything dude

To believe that there is an elected group that will be saved

,
is biblical and essential to a correct understanding of salvation...
to deny unconditional election is a denial of biblical salvation.

Micah Murray states the following points [from this link - a must read] http://redemptionpictures.com/2013/07/13/election/

1. If unconditional election is true, salvation is an arbitrary lottery.
2. If unconditional election is true, God’s creation is an act of cruelty.
3. If unconditional election is true, loving my neighbor is an unfair demand.
4. If unconditional election is true, our natural response will be survivor’s guilt.
5. If unconditional election is true, God cannot be trusted.

FINALLY - This is one more GREAT argument against election salvation!

This is a sad denial of scripture....sorry dude

FINALLY - This is one more GREAT argument against election salvation! http://www.biblehelp.org/sumsel.htm

I am not sure which link was worse.....horrible links, butchered scripture, clueless.

 

[percho]

I've been mulling this one over for a bit, because I want to give you a proper answer. I do believe that God is in control of things, but I cannot bring myself to adopt the point of view that our brother pinoy has taken.

If I adopt pinoy's point of view, then I have to say that my church, and many of the churches in my area, are just wasting time, as the lost don't need preaching. I believe that access to salvation is offered to all. Even as the scripture says "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Yes, I believe Christ has chosen us. But in the theology proposed by pinoy, since some are "unregenerate" and seemingly remain that way, that means Christ has chosen some and not chosen others. So then God, who we are told is Love, has outright created some to eternal life and some to damnation, and He, as you said, "persuades" those He had already set aside to salvation, to believe the Spirit.

I'm certain that's not a really good answer, EWF, but if we were actually speaking face to face I could probably explain things better.

Consider these verses.

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:19,23

Now if only the saved, are the sons of God, why does the rest of creation have an earnest expectation of their manifestation?

Are the sons of God, the predestined, those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit? I believe so. But what is their purpose?

Verse 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Why, why was the creation subjected to futility.

Did the following have anything to do with the creation being subjected to futility?

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. And Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

 

[percho]

I'm sorry brother but I don't have the foggiest notion of what you are attempting to say or the questions you are asking.

Well it appears to me that presently only the firstfruits are being called. After that call Jesus will return and set up the kingdom of God, the tabernacle of David. David and Solomon after him sat on the throne of the LORD. God says he would give Jesus the throne of his father David. Then Acts 17 says so that the residue of man can seek the Lord and those called for his name.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree and who are those of Rom 8:29 are they not the same as those of Rom 8:23 (And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. )? Are they the same as those of James 1:18 (Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. )? Does, "first," preceding, "fruit," imply there will be other fruit of like kind at some other time?


During this age; Is it, the firstfruits of the Spirit only, who are being taken out of the nations, by God as a people for his name? Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

After this taking out of, the firstfruits, will God, through Christ return? Verse 16 Why? Verse 17 (That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, [the firstfruits of the Spirit who will then be reigning with Christ] saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Show me from scripture where it is said one is predestined to be unsaved.


I do not know what PB's believe. Sorry for the rabbit trail which really isn't a rabbit trail.

YOu are not alone in your belief. If Pinoy is correct, there is no need at all for any church on any block in any city in any state. If Pinoy is spot on correct, than Billy Graham, Billy sunday and many others wasted their time holding revivals and rally's around this world.

To believe that there is an elected group that will be saved, is kin to the Jehovah Witnesses claim that only 144,000 will make it to heaven. All thos poor men and women that spent every Saturday handing out their magazines and sharing an invitation to attend their Kingdom Hall, is pure foolishness, because there will only be 144,000 making it to their new kingdom!

Paul tells us in Romans 1:16 (NIV), "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile." Than in Galatians 3:28 (NIV), paul writes, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

Micah Murray states the following points [from this link - a must read] http://redemptionpictures.com/2013/07/13/election/

1. If unconditional election is true, salvation is an arbitrary lottery.
2. If unconditional election is true, God’s creation is an act of cruelty.
3. If unconditional election is true, loving my neighbor is an unfair demand.
4. If unconditional election is true, our natural response will be survivor’s guilt.
5. If unconditional election is true, God cannot be trusted.

FINALLY - This is one more GREAT argument against election salvation! http://www.biblehelp.org/sumsel.htm

You don't believe in election salvation....really?!?

 

[PreachTony]

You don't believe in election salvation....really?!?

EWF - As I told pinoy, I believe in a salvation offered to all as the free gift of God. I do believe the work was finished on the cross, otherwise Jesus would not have said "It is finished." That said, the type of salvation discussed by pinoy in this thread seems to me a salvation of God forcing His grace upon someone. I know you said it wasn't 'force' but 'persuasion,' but we could honestly argue that as a matter of semantics and neither of us would gain any ground.

Truthfully, I don't agree with the notion of irresistible grace. I believe the Spirit of God can be refused and resisted. We're told not to quench the spirit. If the spirit can be resisted, then it stands to reason that an aspect of the spirit, His grace, can likewise be resisted.

Again, I'm sure I'm not illuminating my point of view as well as I could. Perhaps given time I could fully and properly lay it out for you.

 

[pinoybaptist]

194 posts and the thread is still going.
And not in the Cal-Arm forum even.
uhmmmmmm:laugh:

well, we've got a 2-day activity at church today, so I won't be posting most of the day, brothers....

EWF - As I told pinoy, I believe in a salvation offered to all as the free gift of God.

First, there was no OFFER of salvation. Second, the idea that it was offered to all comes from erroneous division of the word. If ALL men are being offered salvation, then why do those who wrote in the Bible, particularly the New Testament, even mention there are those whom God elected unto salvation ?
Salvation was a given gift, not an offered gift.

I do believe the work was finished on the cross, otherwise Jesus would not have said "It is finished."

Yup. The old qualifier but that I mentioned somewhere else, maybe this thread or somewhere else.
Jesus is Savior but, except, however..... my, my, my....(apologies to Lt. Kenda :laugh

That said, the type of salvation discussed by pinoy in this thread seems to me a salvation of God forcing His grace upon someone.

can't answer this with a one-liner, so I'll pass it for now.

I know you said it wasn't 'force' but 'persuasion,' but we could honestly argue that as a matter of semantics and neither of us would gain any ground.

No persuasion either in eternal salvation.
It was administered to His people because they needed it.

Truthfully, I don't agree with the notion of irresistible grace. I believe the Spirit of God can be refused and resisted. We're told not to quench the spirit. If the spirit can be resisted, then it stands to reason that an aspect of the spirit, His grace, can likewise be resisted.

My brother, you need to look at the Scriptures very well.
Forget about the tradition of preaching that you said you grew up in.
Take a long hard look at the Scriptures.
The only ones who can truly resist the Spirit of God are those instructed not to quench it.
Those who are indwelt, but not filled.
Begin with the Old Testament.
The law was not given to all men, it was given to Israel, and only Israel.
Moses was never instructed, nor any Israelite to take the law of God to the tribes surrounding them, only to try and live peaceably with them (reminds us of a parallel in Romans, doesn't it), and with strangers who come into their midst.
The Spirit of God can be quenched, disobeyed, resisted but only by those who are His children.
Paul was disobedient to the Spirit when He was told not to go to Jerusalem.
Moses disobeyed God's instructions to speak to the Rock.
David knew the commandments of God yet he murdered and committed adultery.
That is a resistance to the Spirit.
Alexander the coppersmith treated Paul disrespectfully.
John Mark resisted the Spirit by returning to the world.
There is not one instance of any writer of the New Testament pointing to an unbeliever as having resisted the Spirit, anymore than your children's neighbor can be called disobedient to you when you're not their father.

 

[PreachTony]

194 posts and the thread is still going.
And not in the Cal-Arm forum even.
uhmmmmmm:laugh:

I'm going to guess that our civility is the driving factor in this thread continuing as long as it has. If we were just calling each other names and continually sniping at each other we would've been shut down long ago.

well, we've got a 2-day activity at church today, so I won't be posting most of the day, brothers....

Enjoy your day at the House of the Lord. I'm stuck in the office for a few more hours.

First, there was no OFFER of salvation. Second, the idea that it was offered to all comes from erroneous division of the word. If ALL men are being offered salvation, then why do those who wrote in the Bible, particularly the New Testament, even mention there are those whom God elected unto salvation ?
Salvation was a given gift, not an offered gift.

I would respond to that with scripture. Bolded parts are for emphasis. I am not attempting to shout at you, pinoy.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I cannot help but read that verse as relating to all mankind. If it were a reference only to an 'elect' few, I can't help but think it would read "...will draw the elect unto me."

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In speaking with a "ruler of the Jews," Nicodemus, we have record of Jesus saying "...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." He didn't say the elect who have no choice but to believe in him..."

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

There are other verses indicating the sacrifice of Christ was for all mankind, and not just the elect. Yet we also read that broad is the gate and wide is the way that leads to damnation, and many are going in at that gate. That tells me that each individual soul, should it live long enough to come to an understanding (age of accountability), has some say in whether or not it accepts the gift of salvation. Otherwise not a single one of us has any control over even the smallest matters in out life, but instead God is the puppet-master, pulling the strings.

Yup. The old qualifier but that I mentioned somewhere else, maybe this thread or somewhere else.
Jesus is Savior but, except, however..... my, my, my....(apologies to Lt. Kenda :laugh

Truthfully, everyone places some kind of qualifier on everything they read. We all read and comprehend through the experiences of our lives.

can't answer this with a one-liner, so I'll pass it for now.

Nor would I expect you to...that's a heavy topic.

No persuasion either in eternal salvation.
It was administered to His people because they needed it.

Similar to what I said above, I see scripture differently than you. I would very much like to discuss the notion of "Timely" and "Eternal" Salvation with you.

My brother, you need to look at the Scriptures very well.
Forget about the tradition of preaching that you said you grew up in.
Take a long hard look at the Scriptures.
The only ones who can truly resist the Spirit of God are those instructed not to quench it.
Those who are indwelt, but not filled.
Begin with the Old Testament.
The law was not given to all men, it was given to Israel, and only Israel.
Moses was never instructed, nor any Israelite to take the law of God to the tribes surrounding them, only to try and live peaceably with them (reminds us of a parallel in Romans, doesn't it), and with strangers who come into their midst.
The Spirit of God can be quenched, disobeyed, resisted but only by those who are His children.
Paul was disobedient to the Spirit when He was told not to go to Jerusalem.
Moses disobeyed God's instructions to speak to the Rock.
David knew the commandments of God yet he murdered and committed adultery.
That is a resistance to the Spirit.
Alexander the coppersmith treated Paul disrespectfully.
John Mark resisted the Spirit by returning to the world.
There is not one instance of any writer of the New Testament pointing to an unbeliever as having resisted the Spirit, anymore than your children's neighbor can be called disobedient to you when you're not their father.

How far do we want to drill down on the idea of an "unbeliever?" You say there is no evidence of an "unbeliever" resisting the spirit? What do you consider Agrippa? Paul preached the word unto him, and Agrippa claimed himself "almost persuaded," but he spurned the Spirit of the Lord. That, to me, is an 'unbeliever' resisting the Spirit.

Good day to you, pinoy. Have fun at church, brother.

PS - I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion. :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

you know, I am not hampered by the thought that there are those who will not "Hear" the word of God spoken so I just ask people "How is God working in your life" & some will come back with that they are being blessed, still others will tell you that they have a funny inkling that He is changing me, and then there are others who are inert. Had you had contacted me after my run in with the "High & Mighty Puritan Orthodox Legalistic" you would have gotten a very negative response from me....but had you contacted me after I had been convinced by the HS (through a sermon by George Whitefield), then you would have gotten a very different response. You see, God has provided means primarily through Mercy .....so I can personally put the pieces together & I sincerely hope that all reading this have a special story to tell about His "Grace & Mercy" in there lives as well.

Still there are those who respond that "THERE IS NO GOD" and/or HE IS NOT ACTIVE IN THEIR LIVES. So what do you do with those folks.....well you try to love them but if they spurn even that then I personally leave them alone. Im not going to judge them....its not my place. Some would say, there actions are proof that they are not Christian......but you never know.....can you tell me who's names are in the Lambs Book Of Life?!? Gee, I don't have access to that......so I will continue to at least try to engage, but that aint easy when someone is hostile. But my point is I reject the impulse to label a person in that "Lordship Salvation" mode of operation cause I aint God & it aint my job to be judg_mental.

So We OLD SCHOOLERS are therefore very gracious to all because we simply don't know who has been chosen & who has not been chosen. But our primary emphasis is that we preach for the edification of those elect by God & the rest will just take a pass. :smilewinkgrin:

Oh, & I personally don't see any Hyper-Calvinism in that, do you?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh and BTW, for those struggling with ELECTION (Hint Hint, You know who you are)....PAY ATTENTION....

“Before the beginning of time, God chose out who would be saved.” This doctrine is clearly supported in the scriptures as proved by the following verses:

Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Ephesians 1:3-4 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.”

Romans 8:33 “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.”

Romans 9:11 “(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

Titus 1:1-2 “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.”

1Peter 1:2 “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

 

[percho]

I'm going to guess that our civility is the driving factor in this thread continuing as long as it has. If we were just calling each other names and continually sniping at each other we would've been shut down long ago.



Enjoy your day at the House of the Lord. I'm stuck in the office for a few more hours.



I would respond to that with scripture. Bolded parts are for emphasis. I am not attempting to shout at you, pinoy.

I cannot help but read that verse as relating to all mankind. If it were a reference only to an 'elect' few, I can't help but think it would read "...will draw the elect unto me."

In speaking with a "ruler of the Jews," Nicodemus, we have record of Jesus saying "...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." He didn't say the elect who have no choice but to believe in him..."

There are other verses indicating the sacrifice of Christ was for all mankind, and not just the elect. Yet we also read that broad is the gate and wide is the way that leads to damnation, and many are going in at that gate. That tells me that each individual soul, should it live long enough to come to an understanding (age of accountability), has some say in whether or not it accepts the gift of salvation. Otherwise not a single one of us has any control over even the smallest matters in out life, but instead God is the puppet-master, pulling the strings.



Truthfully, everyone places some kind of qualifier on everything they read. We all read and comprehend through the experiences of our lives.



Nor would I expect you to...that's a heavy topic.



Similar to what I said above, I see scripture differently than you. I would very much like to discuss the notion of "Timely" and "Eternal" Salvation with you.



How far do we want to drill down on the idea of an "unbeliever?" You say there is no evidence of an "unbeliever" resisting the spirit? What do you consider Agrippa? Paul preached the word unto him, and Agrippa claimed himself "almost persuaded," but he spurned the Spirit of the Lord. That, to me, is an 'unbeliever' resisting the Spirit.

Good day to you, pinoy. Have fun at church, brother.

PS - I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion. :thumbsup:

Where is it written in that passage that Agrippa spurned the Spirit of the Lord?

He no more spurned the Spirit of the Lord than Paul did when he heard the sermon of Stephen and was consenting unto his death.

God had determined that Saul wasn't going to be called through Stephen but through Jesus himself.

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. Gal 1:14 Consenting unto the death of Stephen.
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 15,16

Aggripa wasn't being called in my opinion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF - As I told pinoy, I believe in a salvation offered to all as the free gift of God. I do believe the work was finished on the cross, otherwise Jesus would not have said "It is finished." That said, the type of salvation discussed by pinoy in this thread seems to me a salvation of God forcing His grace upon someone. I know you said it wasn't 'force' but 'persuasion,' but we could honestly argue that as a matter of semantics and neither of us would gain any ground.

Truthfully, I don't agree with the notion of irresistible grace. I believe the Spirit of God can be refused and resisted. We're told not to quench the spirit. If the spirit can be resisted, then it stands to reason that an aspect of the spirit, His grace, can likewise be resisted.

Again, I'm sure I'm not illuminating my point of view as well as I could. Perhaps given time I could fully and properly lay it out for you.

I don't like the term "irresistible grace " I find it misleading.
It doesn't mean God forces you to be Christian ...nor does it mean that grace cannot be resisted. So I like the term "efficacious grace "

So the Holy Spirit regenerates us, gives us a new nature. As a result, we naturally do what the new nature does : that is, we believe and repent of our sins.