Private prayer language

[awaken]

i am saying that there is ONE GIFT that modern Charasma seems to be lacking, of discernment!

most of ewhat goes on as either wrong/bad/heretical theology, and causes people to get really hurt!

again, if the prominent teachers of the movement are NOT from god, if you cannot claim any modern Apsotles/prophets, no healings miracles WHAT is there to hold to in your experiences?

just the tongue talking?

And have you noticed that none of us calim our experiences in refuting your beliefs, JUST the bible?

Could learn from AoG, as they would at least say that we hold to these doctrines because the bible teaches it, NOT because of our experiences, or that the HS told us!

Google the AoG as they actually say latter day rain/sons of god, and word of faith are unscriptual!

ifyou must stay charasmatic, go into that church!

Do you deny that????????
speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you deny that????????
speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17

believe the Bible teaches that
we speak to God, and can pray to Him while doing that
that tongues were the HS granted ability to talk in foreign languages in a church assembly
and that prayers can be silent or spoken,but both need to be done ain a real language!

 

[Revmitchell]

It stands alone! You can not prove that tongues is not prayer unless you deny....
speaking to God is prayer vs.2,28
my spirit prayeth...is tongues vs. 14.
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17

All are prayer according to Paul!

You cannot prove your interpretation of those verses.

 

[DHK]

So now you are saying that the sign of tongues is for the unbeliever (concerning the baptism) not in general? So what you are saying is that tongues is a sign that someone received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Isn't that in line with what the pentecostals believe? Tongues is a sign that someone receives the baptism? By what you posted above..you just proved there theory!

No. Look at 1Cor.14:21,22.
Verse 21 says that it is a sign to the Jews, Israel: "this people," being the nation of Israel.
Verse 22 says that is a sign to the unbeliever.

Peter and the six brethren were Jews that did not believe that salvation had come to the Gentiles. Tongues were a sign to them that salvation had indeed come to the Gentiles. That was one of the purposes of tongues. They did not believe that tongues had come to the Gentiles previously, and now they did. Read the verse. That is exactly what it says:

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Only your assumption! No scriptural proof! It said all that heard the words of Peter the Holy Spirit fell upon them! Everyone in the room at that time was believers!

Of course they were! What were they just a few minutes before? They were unbelievers. They had just been saved. And many of those that were just saved were unbelieving Jews, friends of the Roman centurion, called Cornelius.

How do you outright deny the part where they are speaking to God! PRAYER!!!

No they are not. There is no "they" in the verse first of all.
Secondly there is nothing about prayer in the verse.
Thirdly, there isn't even anything about "speaking to God," where you can get prayer out of it.
Fourthly, you aren't paying attention.

Pay attention. I am not quoting from the KJV. I am quoting from the CEV, the Century English Version of the Bible. Never mind the KJV for the moment. Pay attention to this verse in this version of the Bible.

CEV 1Co 14:2 If you speak languages that others don't know, God will understand what you are saying, though no one else will know what you mean. You will be talking about mysteries that only the Spirit understands.
--There is no "speaking to God" in the verse. It doesn't say that. You have it memorized in the KJV, and the way it is translated there, but this translation does not translate it there. It gives a better sense of the meaning of the verse. There is no speaking to God, or prayer involved. It simply means that "God will understand." That is the "to God" part in the KJV.

AGAIN...you keep leaving out the phrase "speaking to God"....that is prayer!

I am not leaving out anything:
CEV 1Co 14:2 If you speak languages that others don't know, God will understand what you are saying, though no one else will know what you mean. You will be talking about mysteries that only the Spirit understands.

Then quit denying "speaking to God"...that is prayer!

Start understanding what the Bible is saying here:

CEV: 1Co 14:2 If you speak languages that others don't know, God will understand what you are saying, though no one else will know what you mean. You will be talking about mysteries that only the Spirit understands.

No it was the same verse you quoted but you left out the last part...EXCEPT HE INTERPRET, THAT THE CHURCH MAY RECEIVE EDIFYING.

That is verse five:
CEV: 1Co 14:5 I am glad for you to speak unknown languages, although I had rather for you to prophesy. In fact, prophesying does much more good than speaking unknown languages, unless someone can help the church by explaining what you mean.
--"except he interpret" means something entirely different than what you say it does, right? Again, this is a different translation that sheds a better light on what the verse is really saying. It is not saying "you yourself interpret," but rather you have someone interpret for you. You must provide an interpreter. You is in a causal position. That is what the CEV brings out here.

Here again you deny that Paul refers to praying in the spirit as tongues vs.14 confirms that praying in the the spirit is tongues.."For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful"

Your sticking to the KJV often clouds your understanding.
Here it is in the CEV:

1Co 14:14 For example, if I use an unknown language in my prayers, my spirit prays but my mind is useless.
It is an illustration first of all. Notice the words "for example."
Then notice the word "IF". That makes it conjecture, a supposition.
It means we are not supposed to do it. Why? Because if one prays with their spirit their mind is useless and no one is edified.
Also take note that "praying in the spirit" has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, but just the emotional side of the person.
And no, praying in the spirit has nothing to do with tongues, per se.
See what he is saying: If he prays in another language without interpretation then is spirit is praying but the mind is useless. No one understands what he is saying. This has been the consistent theme throughout.

Vs. 14 says praying with my spirit is tongues!

No, he is saying that praying in another language without interpretation is beneficial to one's spirit or emotions, but not the minds of the congregation. It is then a useless gift. What is the purpose of lifting up the spirit, the emotions, if you cannot understand what is being said. Paul is rebuking what is being done, not condoning it. See how you turn Scripture upside down and sideways.

YOu added emotions to what Paul said! He said we pray with our spirit!

Your spirit is your emotions. Paul differentiates between the spirit and the mind. He says when you pray in your spirit your mind is useless. They are opposite of each other. So what you are saying is wrong.

Our mind/soul is our emotions. Our spirit is the part of us that is reborn by the Holy Spirit! It is from our spirit that the Holy Spirit gives the utterance!

The Holy Spirit is not mentioned here.
It is the human spirit vs. the mind:
1Co 14:14 For example, if I use an unknown language in my prayers, my spirit prays but my mind is useless.
--The spirit prays and the mind is useless. They are not one and the same thing.

NO, you are leaving out or adding to the scrptures to fit your theology! I have not ignored one scripture!
It is plain if anyone would read it that the correction Paul is given is tongue in the assembly without interpretaion! NOWHERE does it say what you are insinuating!
Tongues is praying in the spirit/speaking to God/ blessing with the spirit/giving thanks!....ALL ARE PRAYER! WHETHER PRIVATE OR PUBLIC!

Here it is again:

CEV: 1Co 14:14 For example, if I use an unknown language in my prayers, my spirit prays but my mind is useless.

1. It is an example. The words "for example" are important. These few verses (14ff) are an illustration. He is not condoning prayer in tongues whether private or public at all. It is simply an illustration.

2. Tongues are languages. They always, always need an interpreter.

3. They are always spoken and never prayed.

4. They are a gift for the assembly, the church, and never for private use.

5. The spirit is the emotions. It is opposed to the mind. This is seen in verse 14 very plainly.

6. Paul never, never, condones a private prayer language.

 

[Don]

Yes it was correction by his own example! He spoke in tongues more than any of them, YET in the church he would rather speak five words with his understanding! So where did he speak tongue if not in the church? It does not say whether he did or not just what he would RATHER do!

You misunderstand what the passage is saying. Because this particular chapter is telling them they've been misbehaving in the church assembly, and their primary misbehavior is speaking in tongues, he's telling them the error of trying to get everyone to speak in tongues. As he says in the beginning of the chapter, the purpose is edification. THAT is why he would rather speak five words easy to be understood.

Again, He was using his own example! I have never said that he does not want tongues in church. Go back and read my other post! I have always said tongues in church with interpretation is in order! But I do not deny anyone outside the church walls to not speak/pray in tongues! All of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit can be done outside the church assembly, including praying in the spirit!

YOU make statements that verse 28 supports a "private prayer language"; it does not.

It does not give any example of any of the apostles speaking in tongues except Acts 2. But we know they did!

If it does not give examples, then how do we know they did?

FIrst, do you see that speaking in tongues is praying? If so then why can't we pray outside the church in our prayer closet between me and God! Just like vs. 28 says!

Do I have to speak in tongues to pray? Or can I just pray?

Verse 28 does NOT say "pray in a prayer closet." It says, "if you have no interpreter while in the assembly, then you should not speak out."

I do not need a sign to believe! I do not limit tongues JUST as a sign to the unbeliever! As I have shown before there were not any unbelievers around when they spoke in tongues in Acts 10 or 19.

So now we've gone in a circle. You insist that tongues are a sign for unbelievers; now you say that they're NOT just a sign for unbelievers.

I agree! I did not say repentance saved! RE READ my post! I said Faith saved us..it was by hearing the Word that brings us to repentance (change of mind and action).

Glad we agree. You see, you stopped with "brings us to repentence," and you didn't say that we were saved by Faith.

Verse 45 says that they of the circumcision which believed were astonished! They were already believers!

Yes! vs. They received the Holy Ghost just as they did at Pentecost! They spoke in tongues just as they did at Pentecost! What were they doing in vs. 46? Magnifying God! No interpretation given! Tongues were not used as a sign to unbelievers here! Tongues were used to spread the gospel!
If there was any sign given here it was a sign to the BELIEVING Jews that Gentiles received the Holy Spirit!

EXACTLY. The believing Jews were astonished that the Holy Ghost would be poured out to the Gentiles.

Bottom line is that they were not witnessing to anyone. Unbelievers were not present. They were magnifying God!
In the passages which we have been examining (especially the account of Pentecost and the story of Cornelius), people were speaking to God in tongues. This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said:

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

So when people spoke in tongues in the above passages, they were praying directly to God in the Holy Spirit. In other words, the communication was going from earth up to heaven.

Now take a look at another statement that the apostle Paul made

"He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corinthians 14:5)

Here Paul said that when a person speaks a message in tongues to a church congregation, the message must be interpreted so that the congregation can be edified (so that the message will benefit them, instruct them, build them up in their faith, etc.). This describes another form of tongues in which a message is delivered from heaven down to earth, which must be interpreted into the local language.

So there are actually two purposes for tongues in the New Testament, which is something that many Christians don't realize. There's a "public" form of tongues for delivering a message from God to a group of people (which must be interpreted into the local language), and there's a "private" form of tongues for speaking to God (praying to Him in the Spirit). Each form of tongues has a different purpose.
Until you realize this...tongues will contradict in scriptures! If you see this, there is no contradiction!

The emphasized part of your message: There is no scriptural support for this.

Have you finished studying about those that cast out devils, but the Lord doesn't know them?

 

[awaken]

believe the Bible teaches that
we speak to God, and can pray to Him while doing that
that tongues were the HS granted ability to talk in foreign languages in a church assembly
and that prayers can be silent or spoken,but both need to be done ain a real language!

YOu did not address the questions! You just did a little dance around them..


Do you deny that????????
speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17

 

[awaken]

You cannot prove your interpretation of those verses.

Do you deny that????????
speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17

 

[awaken]

No. Look at 1Cor.14:21,22.
Verse 21 says that it is a sign to the Jews, Israel: "this people," being the nation of Israel.
Verse 22 says that is a sign to the unbeliever.

Peter and the six brethren were Jews that did not believe that salvation had come to the Gentiles. Tongues were a sign to them that salvation had indeed come to the Gentiles. That was one of the purposes of tongues. They did not believe that tongues had come to the Gentiles previously, and now they did. Read the verse. That is exactly what it says:

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Of course they were! What were they just a few minutes before? They were unbelievers. They had just been saved. And many of those that were just saved were unbelieving Jews, friends of the Roman centurion, called Cornelius.

No they are not. There is no "they" in the verse first of all.
Secondly there is nothing about prayer in the verse.
Thirdly, there isn't even anything about "speaking to God," where you can get prayer out of it.
Fourthly, you aren't paying attention.

Pay attention. I am not quoting from the KJV. I am quoting from the CEV, the Century English Version of the Bible. Never mind the KJV for the moment. Pay attention to this verse in this version of the Bible.

CEV 1Co 14:2 If you speak languages that others don't know, God will understand what you are saying, though no one else will know what you mean. You will be talking about mysteries that only the Spirit understands.
--There is no "speaking to God" in the verse. It doesn't say that. You have it memorized in the KJV, and the way it is translated there, but this translation does not translate it there. It gives a better sense of the meaning of the verse. There is no speaking to God, or prayer involved. It simply means that "God will understand." That is the "to God" part in the KJV.

I am not leaving out anything:
CEV 1Co 14:2 If you speak languages that others don't know, God will understand what you are saying, though no one else will know what you mean. You will be talking about mysteries that only the Spirit understands.

Start understanding what the Bible is saying here:

CEV: 1Co 14:2 If you speak languages that others don't know, God will understand what you are saying, though no one else will know what you mean. You will be talking about mysteries that only the Spirit understands.

That is verse five:
CEV: 1Co 14:5 I am glad for you to speak unknown languages, although I had rather for you to prophesy. In fact, prophesying does much more good than speaking unknown languages, unless someone can help the church by explaining what you mean.
--"except he interpret" means something entirely different than what you say it does, right? Again, this is a different translation that sheds a better light on what the verse is really saying. It is not saying "you yourself interpret," but rather you have someone interpret for you. You must provide an interpreter. You is in a causal position. That is what the CEV brings out here.

Your sticking to the KJV often clouds your understanding.
Here it is in the CEV:

1Co 14:14 For example, if I use an unknown language in my prayers, my spirit prays but my mind is useless.
It is an illustration first of all. Notice the words "for example."
Then notice the word "IF". That makes it conjecture, a supposition.
It means we are not supposed to do it. Why? Because if one prays with their spirit their mind is useless and no one is edified.
Also take note that "praying in the spirit" has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, but just the emotional side of the person.
And no, praying in the spirit has nothing to do with tongues, per se.
See what he is saying: If he prays in another language without interpretation then is spirit is praying but the mind is useless. No one understands what he is saying. This has been the consistent theme throughout.

No, he is saying that praying in another language without interpretation is beneficial to one's spirit or emotions, but not the minds of the congregation. It is then a useless gift. What is the purpose of lifting up the spirit, the emotions, if you cannot understand what is being said. Paul is rebuking what is being done, not condoning it. See how you turn Scripture upside down and sideways.

Your spirit is your emotions. Paul differentiates between the spirit and the mind. He says when you pray in your spirit your mind is useless. They are opposite of each other. So what you are saying is wrong.

The Holy Spirit is not mentioned here.
It is the human spirit vs. the mind:
1Co 14:14 For example, if I use an unknown language in my prayers, my spirit prays but my mind is useless.
--The spirit prays and the mind is useless. They are not one and the same thing.

Here it is again:

CEV: 1Co 14:14 For example, if I use an unknown language in my prayers, my spirit prays but my mind is useless.

1. It is an example. The words "for example" are important. These few verses (14ff) are an illustration. He is not condoning prayer in tongues whether private or public at all. It is simply an illustration.

2. Tongues are languages. They always, always need an interpreter.

3. They are always spoken and never prayed.

4. They are a gift for the assembly, the church, and never for private use.

5. The spirit is the emotions. It is opposed to the mind. This is seen in verse 14 very plainly.

6. Paul never, never, condones a private prayer language.

We have been around that bush to many times...


Do you deny that????????
speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17

 

[Revmitchell]

Do you deny that????????
speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17

Again with the strawman.

 

[Yeshua1]

YOu did not address the questions! You just did a little dance around them..


Do you deny that????????
speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17

Do you deny the Bible NEVER taught God gave tongues for 'personal prayer' languages?

that the Bible does NOT teach one speaks in tongues outside of a church assembly that it was given just for transistion period in acts?

 

[awaken]

You misunderstand what the passage is saying. Because this particular chapter is telling them they've been misbehaving in the church assembly, and their primary misbehavior is speaking in tongues, he's telling them the error of trying to get everyone to speak in tongues. As he says in the beginning of the chapter, the purpose is edification. THAT is why he would rather speak five words easy to be understood.

I do understand that verse! He is plainly saying that he would rather speak five words easy to be understood in church than speak in tongues without interpretation! But that does not prove or disprove tongues as prayer! He spoke in tongues, that is the only other plain understanding from that verse!

YOU make statements that verse 28 supports a "private prayer language"; it does not.

Speaking to God is prayer!

If it does not give examples, then how do we know they did?

Are you saying that they did not speakin tongues? Acts 2 says they did!

Do I have to speak in tongues to pray? Or can I just pray?

vs 15 says you can do both! But the Spirit knows what should be prayed where we sometimes do not!

Verse 28 does NOT say "pray in a prayer closet." It says, "if you have no interpreter while in the assembly, then you should not speak out."

What does the rest of the verse say? You guys leave out the part that makes speaking to God plain! ....speak to yourself and God!

So now we've gone in a circle. You insist that tongues are a sign for unbelievers; now you say that they're NOT just a sign for unbelievers.

I will ask you again...what was the sign to bellievers? Was it a sign that God baptized them in the Holy Spirit? I am not understanding what you are referring to as a sign to unbelievers because this is how I understand vs. 21-22.

"In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"" (1 Corinthians 14:21-25)

First he says that tongues are a "sign" for unbelievers, but then he says that if unbelievers see people speaking in tongues, the unbelievers will think that the believers are out of their minds.

It turns out that "uninterpreted tongues" have been used in Israel's history as a sign to the unbelieving Israelites that God's judgment had come upon them. Paul was quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11-12:

"Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen." (Isaiah 28:11-12)

This prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrian army swooped down upon Israel speaking a foreign language (an uninterpreted tongue), carrying Israel off into captivity. Paul used an example from Israel's history to show that uninterpreted tongues are sometimes used as a "sign" for unbelievers that judgment has come upon them.

Then Paul pointed out that if an unbeliever enters a church where Christians seem to have lost their minds, the unbeliever wouldn't see this as a sign of impending judgment. This is why Paul said that prophecy is much more beneficial during a church service.

Glad we agree. You see, you stopped with "brings us to repentence," and you didn't say that we were saved by Faith.

Sorry, took for granted you understood that!


EXACTLY. The believing Jews were astonished that the Holy Ghost would be poured out to the Gentiles.[/quote] But I believe the point was that they were praising God! Magnifying God!

The emphasized part of your message: There is no scriptural support for this.

So then do we agree that the one purpose was to praise God? That the Corinthian church was using tongues a praise/blessing/prayer in the church without interpretation?

Have you finished studying about those that cast out devils, but the Lord doesn't know them?

We have been in revival this week...so, no!

 

[awaken]

Again with the strawman.

Again...you can not answer this because it will prove that tongues is prayer!

 

[DHK]

We have been around that bush to many times...


Do you deny that????????
speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17

No, speaking to God is not prayer. That is not even what the verse says in other translations.

Praying in the spirit is not tongues or languages; it is "emotions."

Verses 16 and 17 Paul is using an illustration and the teaching on prayer is not germane as to whether prayer in another language is valid or not. It is an illustration.

 

[awaken]

Do you deny the Bible NEVER taught God gave tongues for 'personal prayer' languages?

that the Bible does NOT teach one speaks in tongues outside of a church assembly that it was given just for transistion period in acts?

Why is it so hard to answer those questions?
ANSWER: Because it will prove you wrong!

 

[awaken]

No, speaking to God is not prayer. That is not even what the verse says in other translations.

So who do you speak to when you pray?

Praying in the spirit is not tongues or languages; it is "emotions."

You can not find that in scriptue! As a matter of fact this is what it says about tongues/praying in the spirit...

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." (1 Corinthians 14:14)

Verses 16 and 17 Paul is using an illustration and the teaching on prayer is not germane as to whether prayer in another language is valid or not. It is an illustration.

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified." (1 Corinthians 14:16-17)

Paul was speaking of praising God and giving thanks to God, so this is a reference to the private form of tongues (because the private form of tongues is for speaking to God).

The word "tongues" is not used in this passage, yet it's clear from the context that "praising God with your spirit" means the same thing as "praising God in tongues" (in the Holy Spirit). So once again..... "praising God with your spirit" and "praising God in the Spirit" and "praising God in tongues" all mean the same thing.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why is it so hard to answer those questions?
ANSWER: Because it will prove you wrong!

can you record ONE verse that shows any Apostle recording down a prayer made in his personal prayer language to the father?

 

[awaken]

can you record ONE verse that shows any Apostle recording down a prayer made in his personal prayer language to the father?

Answer the questions!

 

[Yeshua1]

Answer the questions!

already have!

Prayers are when we speak to god in a known language, and that tongues were inteh bible given to fulfill prophetic OT passages regarding the time of the messiah, and to reveal the will of God to the church before bible completed!

 

[awaken]

already have!

Prayers are when we speak to god in a known language, and that tongues were inteh bible given to fulfill prophetic OT passages regarding the time of the messiah, and to reveal the will of God to the church before bible completed!

speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28... So you admit that speaking to God is prayer?
The others you did not address???
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14 Does Paul say that if he prays in tongue that his spirit prays?
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16...Is blessing with the spirit tongues?
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17 ...when you give thanks to God is that prayer?

 

[Yeshua1]

speaking to God is prayer vs. 2,28... So you admit that speaking to God is prayer?
The others you did not address???
praying in the spirit is tongues vs. 14 Does Paul say that if he prays in tongue that his spirit prays?
Blessing with the spirit is prayer vs. 16...Is blessing with the spirit tongues?
Giving thanks is prayer vs. 17 ...when you give thanks to God is that prayer?

again, the gift of tongues did NOT operate as prayer by you to God, it ewas used in a local assembly, to give forth the wisdom/knowledge of the Lord meant for that time!