Prolife across the board

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I am still working through the whole idea of capital punishment and the concept of a 'just war.' As I grow older and life becomes more pecious these issues are not as clear as they once were.

However, I think there is a great difference in these two issues compared to the murder that we blithely call abortion.

In capital punishment and war we obviously are going to have the tragedy of the death of the innocent in an attempt to kill the guilty. Tragic, true, but that is not the purpose of the action.

In abortion every single victim is innocent. There is no friendly fire, collateral damage, or improper judicial decisions. Every single child is murdered on purpose.

While in capital punishment and war we may debate and do what we can do to reduce the death of the innocent in abortion we choose to kill them all. This would be the equivalent of executing everyone at a crime scene or wiping out the entire nation of Iraq. Worse actually, because in those cases we might just happen to get the guilty.

I still debate, study, and seek God's leadership and direction as to my stand on capital punishment and warfare, but in abortion there is no question - there are no guilty victims, not one.

 

[just-want-peace]

Well stated Roger, and very "to the point"!

I seriously doubt that this logic will faze the dedicated leftist though, and I look for very few, if any, to reply to this thread.

Other posts have pointed out the difference re: innocent deaths vs guilty executions, but the not-so-subtle differences have never been accepted by the "Big A Team". so I don't look for much activity here.

Anyway, very good summation of the facts.

 

[steaver]

I still debate, study, and seek God's leadership and direction as to my stand on capital punishment and warfare, but in abortion there is no question - there are no guilty victims, not one.__________________
-Roger

I feel the same way as you do Roger. I have been recently challenged as what my view should be in this area of captal punishment, warfare and I will add self defense.

I feel as though self-defense is a moral right. However, I cannot find it taught as a moral right in the New Testament. In fact, it could be argued that a Christian does not have any commandment from Jesus to harm another, even in a "self-defense" scenario. Did He not say to turn the other cheek?

But then again, would it be wrong for me to stop another with harmful or deadly force if that person was harming or attempting to kill another, say my child or spouse?

I think you might get more response to this topic in the "Christian debate" forum. This debate can be political, but I would like to see it worked out in a Christian values forum. I would like to settle this issue in my spirit WITH SCRIPTURE if that is even possible.

How can we harmonize the OT teaching of captial punishment with the NT teaching of forgiveness and turn the other cheek?

How do we harmonize self-defense with Jesus' turn the other cheek? Can we?

Roger, I suggest moving this to the other forum. I hope it will generate some good debate with scriptures.

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[Darron Steele]

... Every single child is murdered on purpose.
...
in abortion there is no question - there are no guilty victims, not one.

Right, "abortion" is the murder of unborn children.

I usually avoid the term "abortion." I do not use "pro-life." Those who want to `not oppose,' meaning promote, the murder of children like to treat it as a political issue. These labels enable that purpose.

I use an appropriate description that accurately describes what is going on. I oppose the murder of unborn children.

Capital punishment is the execution of those who do what it evil, including murder. Those who oppose the execution of evildoers while favoring the murder of unborn children have frightening `values.'

 

[LadyEagle]

Thank you, Roger, for your excellent and well thought out post. :flower:

 

[KenH]

Good job, Roger. Excellent points. :thumbs:

 

[JamieinNH]

I still debate, study, and seek God's leadership and direction as to my stand on capital punishment and warfare, but in abortion there is no question - there are no guilty victims, not one.

We can agree with abortion that it's wrong in any manner. I am glad to hear you giving thought to the idea of CP and warfare.

I am against abortion, but I am also very against CP and War. I just don't or can't believe that Jesus would have taught us to be for CP or War.

It is my hope that God will touch your heart and bring you to a conclusion that CP and warfare is wrong also. You can many others on this board.

The world will never be safe and it will never be won or saved by fighting...

 

[Amy.G]

We can agree with abortion that it's wrong in any manner. I am glad to hear you giving thought to the idea of CP and warfare.

I am against abortion, but I am also very against CP and War. I just don't or can't believe that Jesus would have taught us to be for CP or War.

It is my hope that God will touch your heart and bring you to a conclusion that CP and warfare is wrong also. You can many others on this board.

The world will never be safe and it will never be won or saved by fighting...

War should never be taken lightly, but don't forget that you are able to say what you feel on a public forum because of wars that were fought and won to give you the freedom to protest it.

 

[JamieinNH]

War should never be taken lightly, but don't forget that you are able to say what you feel on a public forum because of wars that were fought and won to give you the freedom to protest it.

I understand your point, but I believe that is a cop out...

Paul was able to say a lot to us and he wasn't "free"... Being able to protest something in a public forum doesn't mean it's right.

No, I am free to say this because my God gives me the strengthen and courage to believe in what is right. As someone that has spent more than a few years in prison, let me tell you my freedom of expression doesn't come because I am free.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

C4KI: there are no guilty victims, not one.

HP: Roger, have you been keeping up with the thread about “What Constitutes a Depraved Nature?” From what I read you should be shocked. Psalms 58, according to DHK, is a Psalm depicting the depraved nature every human is born with.
Ps 58:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician, Altaschith, Michtam of David.>> Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 ¶ Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.
10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

If the wicked that are spoken of here are as such from birth as those believing in original sin profess, and a man after God’s own heart desired to see God wash His feet in the blood of those wicked, God certainly has much blood to do it in and David and the righteous should be rejoicing and in support of abortion.

Break their teeth, break them out, Let them melt away as waters, let every one of them pass away, is the cry of a man after God’s own heart………………..IF this chapter is in fact in support of original sin.

 

[Jim1999]

OPINION ONLY:::::: Beware those murderers who have an emergency abortion to save a life. Beware all those murders who have a D&C which kills a fetus.

The Prolike people are too busy calling all people murderers to make any exceptions!!!!

Beware.

Cheers,

Jim:tonofbricks:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jim1999: The Prolike people are too busy calling all people murderers to make any exceptions!!!!

HP: Speaking of an opinion that is a clear contradiction of the truth……..

 

[OldRegular]

Outstanding and thoughtful OP Roger. My thanks!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I would like for some that hold to God as an ‘Absolute Sovereign’ to explain to the list who is responsible for abortions. If we are to conclude that mans will has nothing to do with being born a sinner, and has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation, and nothing to do with those that God has chosen to leave in their lost estate from birth, are we to assume now that aborted babies are not the product of an Absolute Sovereign at work? Did God not know from the foundations of the world their necessitated fate? If God is not Sovereign in the fate of these aborted fetuses, is He Sovereign at all?

 

[Marcia]

OPINION ONLY:::::: Beware those murderers who have an emergency abortion to save a life. Beware all those murders who have a D&C which kills a fetus.

The Prolike people are too busy calling all people murderers to make any exceptions!!!!

Beware.

Cheers,

Jim:tonofbricks:

Jim, why are you posting this? Most pro-life people I know believe in exceptions to save the mother's life, which are rare cases anyway.

 

[LeBuick]

In capital punishment and war we obviously are going to have the tragedy of the death of the innocent in an attempt to kill the guilty. Tragic, true, but that is not the purpose of the action.

In abortion every single victim is innocent. There is no friendly fire, collateral damage, or improper judicial decisions. Every single child is murdered on purpose..

I don't find much difference between the two. In war, we give the disclaimer "collateral" which is supposed to make the innocent lives lost acceptable. I can't find it within me to call the loss of any life acceptable. Especially because a lot of the innocent lost in wars are young children who are equally a victim in my view.

Capital punishment is very different, there is no innocent life in capital punishment. The victim is usually dead because of the actions of the person being punished. Life for a life I see very differently. However, I only believe in capital punishment when there is smoking gun type guilt. If there is any doubt then I think we should give them life in prison.

 

[LeBuick]

I use an appropriate description that accurately describes what is going on. I oppose the murder of unborn children..'

Just curious, do you feel the same compassion for innocent children killed in war?

 

[Jim1999]

OPINION:::: Has anyone read any issues of the New England Medical Journal on when a fetus is a person, and when the brain is sufficient to effect survival? Interesting!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jim: Has anyone read any issues of the New England Medical Journal on when a fetus is a person, and when the brain is sufficient to effect survival? Interesting!

HP: Enlighten us Jim. Tell us of that magic age when a fetus becomes a person. I have always felt that Scripture shows us clearly how God views it………. if in fact God's Word can be trusted over the New England Medical Journal. “Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;”

Now come on Jim. Do you really believe that one that God foreknows to be a person is ever anything other than what He foreknows...or does God only know a person when he comes to this magical age you describe reading about? So much for foreknowledge.

 

[Palatka51]

I am still working through the whole idea of capital punishment and the concept of a 'just war.' As I grow older and life becomes more pecious these issues are not as clear as they once were.

However, I think there is a great difference in these two issues compared to the murder that we blithely call abortion.

In capital punishment and war we obviously are going to have the tragedy of the death of the innocent in an attempt to kill the guilty. Tragic, true, but that is not the purpose of the action.

In abortion every single victim is innocent. There is no friendly fire, collateral damage, or improper judicial decisions. Every single child is murdered on purpose.

While in capital punishment and war we may debate and do what we can do to reduce the death of the innocent in abortion we choose to kill them all. This would be the equivalent of executing everyone at a crime scene or wiping out the entire nation of Iraq. Worse actually, because in those cases we might just happen to get the guilty.

I still debate, study, and seek God's leadership and direction as to my stand on capital punishment and warfare, but in abortion there is no question - there are no guilty victims, not one.

Very well put Roger. Thank you.