Oooookay. Thanks for the non-answer. That was SO convincing.
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Promises of Abraham, Physical or Spiritual?
- Thread starter TipofTheTongueTheology
- Start date
Oooookay. Thanks for the non-answer. That was SO convincing.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Part 1
The Bible is clear that Israel has a national future in which she will dwell in blessing in her land. This will be after she has been converted to Jesus as her Messiah. However, in the mean time, the current regathering of Israel in unbelief is for the purpose of putting God' s covenant people through the fire of tribulation, which will result in the salvation of the remnant. If one misses the clear message of this biblical teaching it is only because their have a bias against this view.
This explains why anti-Zionists evangelicals have abandoned the normal, literal interpretative approach of Scripture and are guilty of reading back into the text their a priori replacement theology. They have exchanged proper exegesis of Holy Writ for a false theologizing. In the process of developing their anti-Zionist doctrines, their rhetoric is increasingly sounding like Muslim Arabs who call themselves Palestinians. I would ask anyone who cares to answer, " What biblical texts speak specifically of this people?" You can't escape the fact the Bible speaks only of Israel occupying this land, and still, to this day, they have not had uncontested possession of it. That is yet to come, and it will. There are twelve points to be found in the Bible regarding Abraham's promises.
#1: The Land of Canaan, renamed Israel by the Lord, was given by God to Abraham and his descendants as an everlasting possession.
God repeated the promise in Genesis 13:15, saying, "for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever." He said the same thing in Genesis 15:18, "To your descendants I have given this land."
#2: The gift of this Land to Abraham and his descendants was based on an unconditional covenant from God Himself.
Israel's transgressions do not negate the covenant.
You who are fond of stating either that Israel's disobedience has cancelled the covenant, or that "all" the land was possessed is negated by other verses that are terribly inconvenient to your concept of truth.
#3: The Land was given to Abraham and his descendants as part of God's redemptive blessing to the world.
They were chosen for three purposes: to worship God in this land and show the world the blessing of serving the one true God of the Universe; to receive, record and transmit the Word of God (through them we have our Bible); and finally, to be the human channel for the Messiah from whom we have our salvation. In order for God to protect His purposes for the Children of Israel in the Land of Israel, He promised to bless those who blessed Abraham and his descendants and curse him who cursed them.
#4: This land was not given to the descendants of Ishmael (one ancestor of the Arab peoples), but rather to the descendants of Isaac.
God promised to bless Ishmael and to make him a great nation. However, the bloodline of the covenant promise concerning the Land would go through Isaac, not Ishmael.
#5: This Land was not given to the other sons of Abraham, but only to Isaac.
After Sarah died, Abraham had six more sons by Keturah, as well as others by his concubines, who are ancestors of many of the Arab peoples today. However, the covenant of the Land was not for them.
Note that Abraham even sent these sons away from the Land of Canaan.
#6: This Land and covenant were given only to Isaac's son, Jacob, and his descendants, not Esau and his descendants.
Jacob received the birthright directly, by inheritance, from his father Isaac.
#7: God told Israel to conquer the Land which He had given to them.
In Deuteronomy 1:8, we read: "See, I have placed the land before you; go in and possess the land which the Lord swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to them and their descendants after them." On the east side of the Jordan River as the Israelites were about to enter into the Promised land, the Lord said to Joshua: "Moses My servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan river into the land I am about to give to them -- to the Israelites. I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. Your territory will extend from the desert and from Lebanon to the great river, the Euphrates - all the Hittite country -- and to the Great Sea on the west. Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them" (Joshua 1:2-4,6).
Joshua then told his people God would drive out the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites" (Joshua 3:10). He then told them how the Lord would part the flood waters of the Jordan River so they could cross over to the other side. This is what happened and then the people knew that God was with them, and they conquered the land, region by region, starting with Jericho.
The reality of conflict over the land of Israel is nothing new and in no way indicates that God is not with the Jewish people concerning the land issue today. I have heard Christians say that Israel today could not be part of God's plan, because there is so much war and strife that it can't be of God. However, since when has it been any different? All through the Older Testament, nations rose up to fight against the Jewish people, the descendants of Abraham, in the Land of Israel. From the moment Joshua brought the Children of Israel into the Promised Land, it was a fight to possess the Land. King David was seemingly at constant war with his neighbors, the Philistines. Why should it be surprising that conflict is still happening today? The enemies of God have always fought against His plans.
The prophet Zechariah makes it quite clear that at the end of days, God Himself will make Jerusalem a stumbling block for the nations and will judge them by whether or not they understand and support God's plans for Jerusalem and Israel. If they do, they will be blessed; if they don't, they will be destroyed.
The Bible is clear that Israel has a national future in which she will dwell in blessing in her land. This will be after she has been converted to Jesus as her Messiah. However, in the mean time, the current regathering of Israel in unbelief is for the purpose of putting God' s covenant people through the fire of tribulation, which will result in the salvation of the remnant. If one misses the clear message of this biblical teaching it is only because their have a bias against this view.
This explains why anti-Zionists evangelicals have abandoned the normal, literal interpretative approach of Scripture and are guilty of reading back into the text their a priori replacement theology. They have exchanged proper exegesis of Holy Writ for a false theologizing. In the process of developing their anti-Zionist doctrines, their rhetoric is increasingly sounding like Muslim Arabs who call themselves Palestinians. I would ask anyone who cares to answer, " What biblical texts speak specifically of this people?" You can't escape the fact the Bible speaks only of Israel occupying this land, and still, to this day, they have not had uncontested possession of it. That is yet to come, and it will. There are twelve points to be found in the Bible regarding Abraham's promises.
#1: The Land of Canaan, renamed Israel by the Lord, was given by God to Abraham and his descendants as an everlasting possession.
Genesis 12, NASB
7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD who had appeared to him.
7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD who had appeared to him.
God repeated the promise in Genesis 13:15, saying, "for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever." He said the same thing in Genesis 15:18, "To your descendants I have given this land."
#2: The gift of this Land to Abraham and his descendants was based on an unconditional covenant from God Himself.
Genesis 17
7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
Israel's transgressions do not negate the covenant.
Psalm 89
30 "If his sons forsake My law
And do not walk in My judgments,
31 If they violate My statutes
And do not keep My commandments,
32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod
And their iniquity with stripes.
33 "But I will not break off My lovingkindness from him,
Nor deal falsely in My faithfulness.
34 "My covenant I will not violate,
Nor will I alter the utterance of My lips.
35 "Once I have sworn by My holiness;
I will not lie to David.
36 "His descendants shall endure forever
And his throne as the sun before Me.
37 "It shall be established forever like the moon,
And the witness in the sky is faithful." Selah.
30 "If his sons forsake My law
And do not walk in My judgments,
31 If they violate My statutes
And do not keep My commandments,
32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod
And their iniquity with stripes.
33 "But I will not break off My lovingkindness from him,
Nor deal falsely in My faithfulness.
34 "My covenant I will not violate,
Nor will I alter the utterance of My lips.
35 "Once I have sworn by My holiness;
I will not lie to David.
36 "His descendants shall endure forever
And his throne as the sun before Me.
37 "It shall be established forever like the moon,
And the witness in the sky is faithful." Selah.
You who are fond of stating either that Israel's disobedience has cancelled the covenant, or that "all" the land was possessed is negated by other verses that are terribly inconvenient to your concept of truth.
#3: The Land was given to Abraham and his descendants as part of God's redemptive blessing to the world.
Genesis 12
1 Now the LORD said to Abram,
"Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father's house,
To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
1 Now the LORD said to Abram,
"Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father's house,
To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
They were chosen for three purposes: to worship God in this land and show the world the blessing of serving the one true God of the Universe; to receive, record and transmit the Word of God (through them we have our Bible); and finally, to be the human channel for the Messiah from whom we have our salvation. In order for God to protect His purposes for the Children of Israel in the Land of Israel, He promised to bless those who blessed Abraham and his descendants and curse him who cursed them.
#4: This land was not given to the descendants of Ishmael (one ancestor of the Arab peoples), but rather to the descendants of Isaac.
Genesis 17
19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
God promised to bless Ishmael and to make him a great nation. However, the bloodline of the covenant promise concerning the Land would go through Isaac, not Ishmael.
#5: This Land was not given to the other sons of Abraham, but only to Isaac.
After Sarah died, Abraham had six more sons by Keturah, as well as others by his concubines, who are ancestors of many of the Arab peoples today. However, the covenant of the Land was not for them.
Genesis 25
5 Now Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac;
6 but to the sons of his concubines, Abraham gave gifts while he was still living, and sent them away from his son Isaac eastward, to the land of the east.
5 Now Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac;
6 but to the sons of his concubines, Abraham gave gifts while he was still living, and sent them away from his son Isaac eastward, to the land of the east.
Note that Abraham even sent these sons away from the Land of Canaan.
#6: This Land and covenant were given only to Isaac's son, Jacob, and his descendants, not Esau and his descendants.
Jacob received the birthright directly, by inheritance, from his father Isaac.
Genesis 28
4 "May He also give you the blessing of Abraham, to you and to your descendants with you, that you may possess the land of your sojournings, which God gave to Abraham."
4 "May He also give you the blessing of Abraham, to you and to your descendants with you, that you may possess the land of your sojournings, which God gave to Abraham."
#7: God told Israel to conquer the Land which He had given to them.
In Deuteronomy 1:8, we read: "See, I have placed the land before you; go in and possess the land which the Lord swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to them and their descendants after them." On the east side of the Jordan River as the Israelites were about to enter into the Promised land, the Lord said to Joshua: "Moses My servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan river into the land I am about to give to them -- to the Israelites. I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. Your territory will extend from the desert and from Lebanon to the great river, the Euphrates - all the Hittite country -- and to the Great Sea on the west. Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them" (Joshua 1:2-4,6).
Joshua then told his people God would drive out the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites" (Joshua 3:10). He then told them how the Lord would part the flood waters of the Jordan River so they could cross over to the other side. This is what happened and then the people knew that God was with them, and they conquered the land, region by region, starting with Jericho.
The reality of conflict over the land of Israel is nothing new and in no way indicates that God is not with the Jewish people concerning the land issue today. I have heard Christians say that Israel today could not be part of God's plan, because there is so much war and strife that it can't be of God. However, since when has it been any different? All through the Older Testament, nations rose up to fight against the Jewish people, the descendants of Abraham, in the Land of Israel. From the moment Joshua brought the Children of Israel into the Promised Land, it was a fight to possess the Land. King David was seemingly at constant war with his neighbors, the Philistines. Why should it be surprising that conflict is still happening today? The enemies of God have always fought against His plans.
The prophet Zechariah makes it quite clear that at the end of days, God Himself will make Jerusalem a stumbling block for the nations and will judge them by whether or not they understand and support God's plans for Jerusalem and Israel. If they do, they will be blessed; if they don't, they will be destroyed.
Zechariah 12
1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
2 "Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.
---
9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."
1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
2 "Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.
---
9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."
Last edited by a moderator:
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Part 2
#8: Israel's sin and subsequent exile from the Land did not change their divine right to this Land given to them by the Lord in covenant.
Many people have said that God's promise to give Israel this land was based upon Israel's faithfulness to God's laws, and that when they were disobedient and sent into captivity, this nullified God's promise. The Bible teaches otherwise. In Leviticus 26:40-45, we read that God would punish Israel for its disobedience and send them into captivity. But God will also bring them back:
In Deuteronomy 30:3-5, God makes the same promise, and Amos thunders forth these remarkable words:
Some opponents to Israel's right to the land say that these verses were fulfilled when the Jewish people returned from the Babylonian captivity. However, we know that there were other exiles and in-gatherings, as well. Yet, Amos speaks of a return to their ancient homeland, Israel, once and for all, when he says, "' ... and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them,' says the Lord your God" (Amos 9:15). That has never happened in history and many believe that this return to Israel is that final return that will culminate in the coming of Messiah.
#9: The name of this Land is not Palestine, but Israel.
Twenty-five hundred years ago, the prophet Ezekiel spoke of the restoration of Israel to its land in the last days. Ezekiel spoke of dry bones coming to life. Never before in history has a nation been destroyed and scattered all over the world, and then been brought back to life. It is a miracle and a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
Notice that the name of that land is Israel, the land that so often is called the "land of Canaan" in the Bible. God says that in the last days it will be called Israel.
#10: The stranger (those outside the Covenant) will live among you and be treated with respect.
God speaks clearly of this directive to Israel in both Isaiah 61:4,5, and in Jeremiah 7:5-7. The "alien" or "foreigner" in these verses would include the Palestinian Arabs and other non-Jewish people who live in the land. They would receive a blessing by living and working in the Land of Israel, not the Land of Palestine. On the one hand, Israel should treat them with respect. On the other hand, they have the responsibility to live at peace, abiding by the laws of the Land, recognizing under whose sovereignty it belongs.
This is what Moses taught: "The community (of Israel) is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the Lord; the same laws and regulations will apply to you and to the alien living among you"(Numbers 15:15,16).
When this relationship is broken, as has happened today, then crisis ensues. Scripture has much more to say about the Land in prophecy, including the fact that Israel will go through many more trials before Messiah comes to fully restore Israel as the head of all nations.
#11: The return of the Jewish people at the end of days will be initiated by God, and their return will signal the restoration of a barren and broken land.
The prophet Isaiah spoke of God's plan to bring His people back to Israel.
When the Jews began to return from the nations of the world at the end of the last century, the land was barren and sparsely inhabited. In the 1860s, the author, Mark Twain, traveled in what was then a backward region of the Ottoman Turkish Empire, called Palestine and described the land, thusly: "Nowhere in all the waste around was there a foot of shade." He called the land a "blistering, naked, treeless land." Of the Galilee, he said, "There is no dew, nor flowers, nor birds, nor trees. There is a plain and an unshaded lake, and beyond them some barren mountains." His summary of Palestine: "Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren, they are dull of color, they are unpicturesque in shape. It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land."
This description matches the Ezekiel's prophecy of the "barren mountains of Israel" in Ezekiel 36:1-7. However, the prophet also says:
Large waves of immigrants began to come in the 1880s. Since those early days, the deserts have been reforested, the rocky fields made fertile, the swamps drained and planted, the ancient terraces rebuilt, and the ruined cities of old re-established. Israel is now a nation of over six million people that is a food exporting nation that boasts high levels of literacy, health, education and welfare, high technology and agricultural development. It can be attributed to people loving the land, having respect for it, cultivating it, something the occupiers of the last 500 years have failed to do. But it can also be attributed to being nothing less than a modern-day miracle.
#12: The nations will be part of the return of the people and the restoration of the land.
In Romans 11:11-14, Paul teaches us Christians that we are grafted into the olive tree, which are the covenants, promises and hopes of Israel. We do not hold up the tree, but it holds us up, so we should not boast against His people, Israel. In verse 28, he tells us that they are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs. Without the faithfulness of the Jewish people in Israel, we would not have our example, our Bible, our Yeshua or our salvation. Therefore, he concludes that "by our mercy, they will receive [God's] mercy." (Romans 11:31).
Paul teaches us Christians that we have a debt to pay to the Jewish people, by blessing them in tangible ways. The day of Israel's full restoration is near. Messiah will make it possible and we shall all live in peace. Until He comes, we, who believe the Bible to be God's Word and that every promise of God will come to pass, must stand and support Israel's right to its land. It is a Divine right. We are patient with those who do not believe the Bible, nor accept Israel's right to the land. Yet, with love for all, we must strongly support Israel's right. We cannot do otherwise and have clear consciences. We cannot say on the one hand that we believe there is a God Who has revealed His perfect will in His Holy Scriptures, and on the other hand, deny Israel its right to the land God promised to her.
That is why you who claim Israel is being forgotten by God don't know what you are saying.
#8: Israel's sin and subsequent exile from the Land did not change their divine right to this Land given to them by the Lord in covenant.
Many people have said that God's promise to give Israel this land was based upon Israel's faithfulness to God's laws, and that when they were disobedient and sent into captivity, this nullified God's promise. The Bible teaches otherwise. In Leviticus 26:40-45, we read that God would punish Israel for its disobedience and send them into captivity. But God will also bring them back:
Leviticus 26
44 "Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God.
45 But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the Lord."
44 "Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God.
45 But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the Lord."
In Deuteronomy 30:3-5, God makes the same promise, and Amos thunders forth these remarkable words:
Amos 9
14 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the LORD your God.
14 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the LORD your God.
Some opponents to Israel's right to the land say that these verses were fulfilled when the Jewish people returned from the Babylonian captivity. However, we know that there were other exiles and in-gatherings, as well. Yet, Amos speaks of a return to their ancient homeland, Israel, once and for all, when he says, "' ... and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them,' says the Lord your God" (Amos 9:15). That has never happened in history and many believe that this return to Israel is that final return that will culminate in the coming of Messiah.
#9: The name of this Land is not Palestine, but Israel.
Twenty-five hundred years ago, the prophet Ezekiel spoke of the restoration of Israel to its land in the last days. Ezekiel spoke of dry bones coming to life. Never before in history has a nation been destroyed and scattered all over the world, and then been brought back to life. It is a miracle and a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
Ezekiel 37
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel."
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel."
Notice that the name of that land is Israel, the land that so often is called the "land of Canaan" in the Bible. God says that in the last days it will be called Israel.
#10: The stranger (those outside the Covenant) will live among you and be treated with respect.
God speaks clearly of this directive to Israel in both Isaiah 61:4,5, and in Jeremiah 7:5-7. The "alien" or "foreigner" in these verses would include the Palestinian Arabs and other non-Jewish people who live in the land. They would receive a blessing by living and working in the Land of Israel, not the Land of Palestine. On the one hand, Israel should treat them with respect. On the other hand, they have the responsibility to live at peace, abiding by the laws of the Land, recognizing under whose sovereignty it belongs.
This is what Moses taught: "The community (of Israel) is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the Lord; the same laws and regulations will apply to you and to the alien living among you"(Numbers 15:15,16).
When this relationship is broken, as has happened today, then crisis ensues. Scripture has much more to say about the Land in prophecy, including the fact that Israel will go through many more trials before Messiah comes to fully restore Israel as the head of all nations.
#11: The return of the Jewish people at the end of days will be initiated by God, and their return will signal the restoration of a barren and broken land.
The prophet Isaiah spoke of God's plan to bring His people back to Israel.
Isaiah 11
12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations
And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations
And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
When the Jews began to return from the nations of the world at the end of the last century, the land was barren and sparsely inhabited. In the 1860s, the author, Mark Twain, traveled in what was then a backward region of the Ottoman Turkish Empire, called Palestine and described the land, thusly: "Nowhere in all the waste around was there a foot of shade." He called the land a "blistering, naked, treeless land." Of the Galilee, he said, "There is no dew, nor flowers, nor birds, nor trees. There is a plain and an unshaded lake, and beyond them some barren mountains." His summary of Palestine: "Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren, they are dull of color, they are unpicturesque in shape. It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land."
This description matches the Ezekiel's prophecy of the "barren mountains of Israel" in Ezekiel 36:1-7. However, the prophet also says:
Ezekiel 36
8 " 'But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.
9 'For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown.
10 'I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt.
11 'I will multiply on you man and beast ; and they will increase and be fruitful ; and I will cause you to be inhabited as you were formerly and will treat you better than at the first. Thus you will know that I am the LORD.
12 'Yes, I will cause men - My people Israel - to walk on you and possess you, so that you will become their inheritance and never again bereave them of children.' "
8 " 'But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.
9 'For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown.
10 'I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt.
11 'I will multiply on you man and beast ; and they will increase and be fruitful ; and I will cause you to be inhabited as you were formerly and will treat you better than at the first. Thus you will know that I am the LORD.
12 'Yes, I will cause men - My people Israel - to walk on you and possess you, so that you will become their inheritance and never again bereave them of children.' "
Large waves of immigrants began to come in the 1880s. Since those early days, the deserts have been reforested, the rocky fields made fertile, the swamps drained and planted, the ancient terraces rebuilt, and the ruined cities of old re-established. Israel is now a nation of over six million people that is a food exporting nation that boasts high levels of literacy, health, education and welfare, high technology and agricultural development. It can be attributed to people loving the land, having respect for it, cultivating it, something the occupiers of the last 500 years have failed to do. But it can also be attributed to being nothing less than a modern-day miracle.
#12: The nations will be part of the return of the people and the restoration of the land.
In Romans 11:11-14, Paul teaches us Christians that we are grafted into the olive tree, which are the covenants, promises and hopes of Israel. We do not hold up the tree, but it holds us up, so we should not boast against His people, Israel. In verse 28, he tells us that they are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs. Without the faithfulness of the Jewish people in Israel, we would not have our example, our Bible, our Yeshua or our salvation. Therefore, he concludes that "by our mercy, they will receive [God's] mercy." (Romans 11:31).
Paul teaches us Christians that we have a debt to pay to the Jewish people, by blessing them in tangible ways. The day of Israel's full restoration is near. Messiah will make it possible and we shall all live in peace. Until He comes, we, who believe the Bible to be God's Word and that every promise of God will come to pass, must stand and support Israel's right to its land. It is a Divine right. We are patient with those who do not believe the Bible, nor accept Israel's right to the land. Yet, with love for all, we must strongly support Israel's right. We cannot do otherwise and have clear consciences. We cannot say on the one hand that we believe there is a God Who has revealed His perfect will in His Holy Scriptures, and on the other hand, deny Israel its right to the land God promised to her.
That is why you who claim Israel is being forgotten by God don't know what you are saying.
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thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Pointing out that I've answered the question already is to reveal your own pretense at ignorance that the question was already answered, and your refusal to deal with that answer. God bless.
You'll be waiting a long time.
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Ignorance on my part is never a pretense, but that is another issue. Let's see how many of the following passages you will ignore instead of reading them in a "normal, literal interpretative approach of Scripture".
1. The land was promised to his seed, not to all of his physical descendants. The Hebrew word used in the text being translated as "for ever" is olam & should not be interpreted as for eternity. It used used to in other passages to mean a very long time. It may cover a person's lifetime (Exo 21:6; 1 Sa 1:22), a period of many generations (Josh 24:2), or the time of the present created order (Ps 73:12). Should we apply your "eternal" interpretation of "olam" to circumcision (Gen 17:10-13), the Passover(Exo 12:14), the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Exo 12:17), the priesthood of Aaron (Exo 29:9), the Sabbath (Exo 31:16-17), the sacrifices, with their portions for the priests (Lev 6:18; 7:34-36; 10:15),fasting and animal sacrifices on the Day of Atonement (Lev 16:29-34), or the Feast of Tabernacles (Lev 23:39-42)
Also, your interpretation of an eternal ownership of a plot of dirt is in direct contradiction to the teaching that the world will be destroyed by fire in the last day. Your interpretation also makes God a liar. If God meant "eternal" and Joshua said they possessed the land, then God lied because they no longer possess it.
2. Unconditional? The terms of that covenant made abiding in the land conditional on their continued obedience to God. Seriously, have you not seen all the "if you" statements placing conditions on the covenant? If you hearken, if you obey, if you don't turn to idols. How can you have missed them? I'll give you a few references to look up to help clear up this gross misunderstanding: Exodus 19:5, Deuteronomy 4:25-26(destroyed from the land AFTER possessing it), Deuteronomy 7:12-13, Deuteronomy 11:16-17, Deuteronomy 30:17-18(condition given as they were about to possess the land), Joshua 23:15-16(told them they could lose the land right after saying God had fulfilled His promise), 1 Kings 9:6-9, 2 Kings 21:8-9, Ezra 9:12-14(intermarriage with heathen breaks the covenant).
3. How has their occupation of the land been a redemptive blessing? Oh, they don't possess the land & haven't possessed it since they broke the covenant. All redemptive blessings come through the Seed of Abraham; not through lost, going to hell jews. That's just absurd & in contradiction to the New Covenant truths. Also, according to Romans 9, WE are the seed(descendants) of Abraham concerning the promises, not the fleshly descendants. Why is this so hard for dispies to undestand?
4. Irrelevant, but the descendants of Ishmael have occupied the land for centuries. Since Joshua said God gave them ALL of the land, & that they possessed it, that would make your "eternal" understanding of the dirt promise wrong, or it makes God a liar, if He meant "eternal".
5. Makes my point. The current nation of Israel, should really be Judah since the tribes of Israel no longer exist, is not a pure genetic bloodline of Isaac. They are not pure descendants of Abraham, besides, why would God give the land to a people who still live in unbelief. That is wholly against Scripture.
6. Read this verse very carefully. Then rethink this point & the previous one.
"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." Galatians 4:28-29
7. Here's a bonus. The great nation promise & the promise of peace while ruling the other nations was fulfilled under Solomon. Study the timeline, it fits perfectly. "Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking, and making merry. And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life." - 1 Kings 4:20-21. "And he reigned over all the kings from the river even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt." -2 Chronicles 9:26
8. Repeating the same falsehood as in 2.
9. Silly claim. The temporary land promised(remember the fervent heat of 2 Peter?) has gone through several name changes after the jews lost possession. Still stuck on the "eternal" nature of temporary dirt.
10. Nothing there of any eternal significance. Still doesn't negate God's promise to destroy the Israelites from off the land if they didn't meet the conditions of the covenant.
11. So, if they return to that land, which they possessed, as God promised, then His covenant was not eternal. They didn't possess it, then they did, then they didn't. Still contradicting your "eternal" covenant theory. BTW, only on Covenant is eternal, the Covenant in Jesus, the Seed of Abraham. Once you fully understand that, then your eyes will be opened & the rest will fall into place.
12. What a terrible understanding of Romans 11. Christ is the tree into whom we are all grafted. No person, or nation of persons, will be grafted in apart from Him. Your worship of a nation of unbelievers is troubling. Do you also believe that "all Israel" being saved refers to every genetic descendant of Abraham from Isaac? The only interpretation of "all Israel" which does not contradict every single teaching of the New Covenant is given by Paul. Read & understand:
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Romans 4:16-17
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:26-29
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Galatians 4:28-29
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Romans 9:4-8
1. The land was promised to his seed, not to all of his physical descendants. The Hebrew word used in the text being translated as "for ever" is olam & should not be interpreted as for eternity. It used used to in other passages to mean a very long time. It may cover a person's lifetime (Exo 21:6; 1 Sa 1:22), a period of many generations (Josh 24:2), or the time of the present created order (Ps 73:12). Should we apply your "eternal" interpretation of "olam" to circumcision (Gen 17:10-13), the Passover(Exo 12:14), the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Exo 12:17), the priesthood of Aaron (Exo 29:9), the Sabbath (Exo 31:16-17), the sacrifices, with their portions for the priests (Lev 6:18; 7:34-36; 10:15),fasting and animal sacrifices on the Day of Atonement (Lev 16:29-34), or the Feast of Tabernacles (Lev 23:39-42)
Also, your interpretation of an eternal ownership of a plot of dirt is in direct contradiction to the teaching that the world will be destroyed by fire in the last day. Your interpretation also makes God a liar. If God meant "eternal" and Joshua said they possessed the land, then God lied because they no longer possess it.
2. Unconditional? The terms of that covenant made abiding in the land conditional on their continued obedience to God. Seriously, have you not seen all the "if you" statements placing conditions on the covenant? If you hearken, if you obey, if you don't turn to idols. How can you have missed them? I'll give you a few references to look up to help clear up this gross misunderstanding: Exodus 19:5, Deuteronomy 4:25-26(destroyed from the land AFTER possessing it), Deuteronomy 7:12-13, Deuteronomy 11:16-17, Deuteronomy 30:17-18(condition given as they were about to possess the land), Joshua 23:15-16(told them they could lose the land right after saying God had fulfilled His promise), 1 Kings 9:6-9, 2 Kings 21:8-9, Ezra 9:12-14(intermarriage with heathen breaks the covenant).
3. How has their occupation of the land been a redemptive blessing? Oh, they don't possess the land & haven't possessed it since they broke the covenant. All redemptive blessings come through the Seed of Abraham; not through lost, going to hell jews. That's just absurd & in contradiction to the New Covenant truths. Also, according to Romans 9, WE are the seed(descendants) of Abraham concerning the promises, not the fleshly descendants. Why is this so hard for dispies to undestand?
4. Irrelevant, but the descendants of Ishmael have occupied the land for centuries. Since Joshua said God gave them ALL of the land, & that they possessed it, that would make your "eternal" understanding of the dirt promise wrong, or it makes God a liar, if He meant "eternal".
5. Makes my point. The current nation of Israel, should really be Judah since the tribes of Israel no longer exist, is not a pure genetic bloodline of Isaac. They are not pure descendants of Abraham, besides, why would God give the land to a people who still live in unbelief. That is wholly against Scripture.
6. Read this verse very carefully. Then rethink this point & the previous one.
"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." Galatians 4:28-29
7. Here's a bonus. The great nation promise & the promise of peace while ruling the other nations was fulfilled under Solomon. Study the timeline, it fits perfectly. "Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking, and making merry. And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life." - 1 Kings 4:20-21. "And he reigned over all the kings from the river even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt." -2 Chronicles 9:26
8. Repeating the same falsehood as in 2.
9. Silly claim. The temporary land promised(remember the fervent heat of 2 Peter?) has gone through several name changes after the jews lost possession. Still stuck on the "eternal" nature of temporary dirt.
10. Nothing there of any eternal significance. Still doesn't negate God's promise to destroy the Israelites from off the land if they didn't meet the conditions of the covenant.
11. So, if they return to that land, which they possessed, as God promised, then His covenant was not eternal. They didn't possess it, then they did, then they didn't. Still contradicting your "eternal" covenant theory. BTW, only on Covenant is eternal, the Covenant in Jesus, the Seed of Abraham. Once you fully understand that, then your eyes will be opened & the rest will fall into place.
12. What a terrible understanding of Romans 11. Christ is the tree into whom we are all grafted. No person, or nation of persons, will be grafted in apart from Him. Your worship of a nation of unbelievers is troubling. Do you also believe that "all Israel" being saved refers to every genetic descendant of Abraham from Isaac? The only interpretation of "all Israel" which does not contradict every single teaching of the New Covenant is given by Paul. Read & understand:
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Romans 4:16-17
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:26-29
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Galatians 4:28-29
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Romans 9:4-8
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The blood where in was the life, temporal of the promised seed of the Old Covenant is shed to bring about the life, eternal for the children of the New Covenant.
for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:26 YLT
Before the foundation of the world it was foreordained the Christ, as of a lamb without spot and without blemish, (Do lambs live forever?) would shed his precious blood, where in is the life/soul of the flesh, for redemption.
Also before the world began God made a promise, a covenant if you will, the hope of eternal life?
God the Father of the Christ had faith in his Son of being obedient unto death even the death of the cross in making a promise of the hope of eternal life for the Christ, as of a lamb without spot and without blemish.
What is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen?
Is it not the resurrected Jesus the Christ? And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17
Would there be, "F A I T H" if Christ is not raised from the dead?
The blood of the old was given so there could be life without blood under the new.
for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:26 YLT
Before the foundation of the world it was foreordained the Christ, as of a lamb without spot and without blemish, (Do lambs live forever?) would shed his precious blood, where in is the life/soul of the flesh, for redemption.
Also before the world began God made a promise, a covenant if you will, the hope of eternal life?
God the Father of the Christ had faith in his Son of being obedient unto death even the death of the cross in making a promise of the hope of eternal life for the Christ, as of a lamb without spot and without blemish.
What is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen?
Is it not the resurrected Jesus the Christ? And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17
Would there be, "F A I T H" if Christ is not raised from the dead?
The blood of the old was given so there could be life without blood under the new.
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Keep it up and I'm gonna start thinking you're a good sport with a good spirit!
...and actually, oddly, I never even had you in mind when I made the post, .... my bad for stereotyping. Keep it up
“'Tis ordinarily said, that the Jews were a typical people, the whole divine economy toward them is doctrinal and instructive to us, not immediately or literally, but by way of Anagogy” - Henry Hammond
Anagoge: 1. An elevation of mind to things celestial. 2. The spiritual meaning or application; esp. the application of the types and allegories of the Old Testament to subjects of the New.
Question for you d-CON . Where do these passages fit into your dispy chronology?:
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as grain is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least kernel fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, The evil shall not overtake nor meet us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations that are called by my name, saith Jehovah that doeth this. Amos 9
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hos 1
Anagoge: 1. An elevation of mind to things celestial. 2. The spiritual meaning or application; esp. the application of the types and allegories of the Old Testament to subjects of the New.
Question for you d-CON
. Where do these passages fit into your dispy chronology?:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as grain is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least kernel fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, The evil shall not overtake nor meet us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations that are called by my name, saith Jehovah that doeth this. Amos 9
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hos 1
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Do any of these passages negate the many that I posted? Not if you read them in their proper context, no, they do not.“'Tis ordinarily said, that the Jews were a typical people, the whole divine economy toward them is doctrinal and instructive to us, not immediately or literally, but by way of Anagogy” - Henry Hammond
Anagoge: 1. An elevation of mind to things celestial. 2. The spiritual meaning or application; esp. the application of the types and allegories of the Old Testament to subjects of the New.
Question for you d-CON
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as grain is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least kernel fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, The evil shall not overtake nor meet us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations that are called by my name, saith Jehovah that doeth this. Amos 9
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hos 1
And I am a good sport with a Holy Spirit. :thumbsup:
Actually the passages I quoted are described as FULFILLED under the NT, and should cause any serious student of the Word to consider a much broader and deeper meaning to prophecies concerning Israel; mainly which Israel?
...Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever... Mt 21:19
What do you think? Was this the Son of God simply losing his temper at a tree, or, is there a much broader and deeper meaning to be pondered?
...Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever... Mt 21:19
What do you think? Was this the Son of God simply losing his temper at a tree, or, is there a much broader and deeper meaning to be pondered?
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
There is only one Israel, and as I pointed out to you, Ezekiel 37:12 clearly teaches that the land will live again under that name, and your passage (Hosea 1:10) proves He will again call Israel "My people." You're selectively ignoring the relationship these two passages have. They do not negate one another, but complement one another.
Oh, there is indeed a much broader and deeper meaning, but not the one you have embraced. This passage is emblematic of the Jews He found in Israel at the time of His ministry: He found nothing but mere words, empty boasts, an outward show of religion, an external profession, and a bare performance of pompous ceremonies which they did by rote, not faith. He found mere traditions of the true gospel of God from the Old Testament, and as a result, Christ rejected them, and in a little time after, the kingdom of God, the Gospel, was taken away from them, and their temple, city, and nation, entirely destroyed. But again, that was just that generation. Most of the prophecies of Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah or Daniel go unfulfilled to this day. But that will change, and Israel will be reestablished. I've shown this through those lengthy posts -- in fact, I quoted Amos as well, but with an exegesis of the prophet you did not include.
There is no doubt that the church and Israel are separate in God's plans, though faithful Israel and the faithful church have two things in common: Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation, and many in both think they have that which they do not possess.
convicted1
Guest
Israel of the OT was a type and shadow of the church that was to come. There was a "church in the wilderness"(Acts 7:38). God has a promise to the seed and not seeds,this seed which is Christ(Galatians 3:16). We who are saved, are grafted into this Seed, into this Vine, the True Vine.
We have the same promises that God gave to Abraham.
We have the same promises that God gave to Abraham.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Except for the land, which is Israel's, and Israel's alone, to be fulfilled in the millennial reign.
Ample Scriptural evidence has been given. But those who refuse to see the truth cannot be convinced of it. this#whatever is without excuse. MANY passages have been posted which completely undermine the foundation of his dispie doctrine of lost genetic descendants of Abraham receiving an eternal dirt reward based on their DNA. He cannot even realize that flesh will not & cannot receive eternal rewards. All flesh will be destroyed. The universe will be destroyed. Dispies are a tenacious people. They never let little things like plain-stated Biblical truths dissuade them from their firmly held personal beliefs.
Joshua said the land promise was fulfilled, Paul said the fleshly seed will not inherit the promise & that the spiritual seed are the true descendants of Abraham & heirs of all the promises, but that's not good enough for this#is.
There is no difference between the dispie who ignores this truth & those who ignore the "salvation is not by works" passages in order to lean on their own works.
Joshua said the land promise was fulfilled, Paul said the fleshly seed will not inherit the promise & that the spiritual seed are the true descendants of Abraham & heirs of all the promises, but that's not good enough for this#is.
There is no difference between the dispie who ignores this truth & those who ignore the "salvation is not by works" passages in order to lean on their own works.
convicted1
Guest
This "land" will pass away with a great noise, shall melt with fervent heat, and will be no more. Abraham searched for a city whose Builder and Maker is God.
More convoluted dispie logic. The "eternal" promise will be fulfilled in a brief period of time. If the dirt promise was eternal, then they would have never ceased occupation of the land, not a single jew would ever die, & the world would never end.
Israel committed every sin which God said would place them in breach of the dirt covenant. They received the land by promise, but lost it through unbelief & disobedience. You've been shown the Scripture which bears this out.
Good post con1....along with michael1711......some view OT Israel as the center of God's complete plan.I used to until many of these other passages became clear. The One Eternal Body...The bride consisting of all saints for all time with Jesus as the head are God's eternal purpose.Eph 3:9-11
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
convicted1
Guest
I was agreeing with you. I hope you didn't think I was disagreeing with you.
This world, upon Jesus' return, is gone, imo.............