Pronoun Trouble

[gb93433]

As "thees,thous, etc" carry the precise meanings of the Greek pronouns better then a generic "you" why shouldn't we want them?

That is not true. Greek pronouns carry much more impact and meaning than the archaic English thous, thees, etc. If you were to learn Greek you would realize how far off the statement you made is.

 

[Rippon]

Nobody in 1611 walked around saying these words(except for the Quakers, and we won't go into them here )

Why not? George Fox wasn't born until 13 years after the 1611 was published. Quakers didn't exist then.The Society of Friends formed in the mid-17th century.Ye should know that.

 

[EdSutton]

You Mean 'Contraction' Trouble, I Think!

Dear friend. I am sad to see that the basic functions of English grammar has elluded (sic) you. We all know that right (sic) proper English which uses contractions will always use two or more of the initial word and usually only one or two letters from the other.

Note:
Isn't
Ain't
Won't
It'll
It's

Thus, ya'll is perhaps the most acceptable form available. Perhaps Ya'llth might be acceptable in some circumstances but the rule is firm...[Smilie deleted, in order to print!]

"[Sigh!] There is nothing necessarily wrong with an attempt to "make up the rules, as you go along," I guess, but really... "Ya'llth"?

[FTR, the use of "right", where I have placed the second (sic) in the above post, is technically proper English grammar. However, the sound I heard was either that of your 7th grade grammar teacher turning over in her grave, if she happens to be deceased, or falling out of her chair, should she be alive and well.]

Punctuation is one facet of written grammar, as well, and the use of a comma would serve to make this of decidedly better construction. (I realize I may be getting somewhat 'long in the tooth', but I don't believe that I have fully reached the 'decrepit' stage, quite yet.) In the alternatives (a good legal phrase, FTR), one could either opt for several synonyms for "right", or infuse a conjunction for a better resultant phrase.

The usage of "elluded" is another matter. There happen to be only two possibilities, here, and I will leave it to you to respond as to which possibility this happens to be, in this particular case.

Now for the 'meat' of your post. Your purported 'rule' would be correct, were one to be attempting to make a contraction of the Southern slang "ya" and will, however, the contracted slang plural (or sometimes the singular usage of this word) is properly (assuming such a thing is actually a possibility, here) "y'all".

Here is a sentence that will serve to illustrate the difference.

"Y'all take care now, ya' hear, otherwise ya'll likely to run afoul of Language Cop!"

Incidentally, the use of"y'all's" - as the possessive form, is the only instance in the English language, where one can properly use two apostrophes in one word, for a bit of otherwise useless information.


And, since

,

here is a link to a picture from the Commonwealth of KY, showing the 'proper' usage. :thumbs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Y'all_Water_Tower

'Mumble...! Grumble...! :BangHead:

Everyone wants to be a critic! ...Mumble... - Amateurs!!!"

Signed, Language Cop

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

". As "thees,thous, etc" carry the precise meanings of the Greek pronouns better then a generic "you" why shouldn't we want them? I

I thought it was dangerous to delve into the Greek.

 

[Rippon]

Punctuation is one facet of written grammar, as well, and the use of a comma would serve to make this of decidedly better construction.

Was that first comma really necessary?

 

[KJVBibleThumper]

I thought it was dangerous to delve into the Greek.

It is, I am not however correcting the Bible at all, merely pointing a Greek fact in light of a normal argument I see laid against the KJV.

As I have to pack and get ready for college all day tomorrow, this is my last post on BB until the summer at least, so I just wanted to say a personal thanks for your good spirit and willingness to make reasoned and logical posts.

And with your post count as high as it is, I will be praying for your carpel tunnel syndrome.

To everyone else on this thread, thanks for your time, thanks for your patience, and thanks for the more or less good humour that I at least, saw and for not letting this thread get bogged down into a flame war.

As I said over in the Textual Criticism thread, if anyone feels that they did not get a fair chance to respond to something on here, my PCC email address is in my profile. Feel free to email me and I will do my best to answer your questions or statements as fast as I can, classes permitting.

Everyone remember :godisgood:

Thumper

 

[preachinjesus]

"[Sigh!] There is nothing necessarily wrong with an attempt to "make up the rules, as you go along," I guess, but really... "Ya'llth"?

Things could get worser...

[FTR, the use of "right", where I have placed the second (sic) in the above post, is technically proper English grammar. However, the sound I heard was either that of your 7th grade grammar teacher turning over in her grave, if she happens to be deceased, or falling out of her chair, should she be alive and well.]

My 7th Grade grammar teacher died after I submitted my theme on "What I Want for Christmas" and openning line was, "I want an official Red Ryder Carbon Action 200 shot range model air rifle!"

Punctuation is one facet of written grammar, as well, and the use of a comma would serve to make this of decidedly better construction.

I second Rippon's questioning of the comma...and I'll also point out that the whole ",as well," in the above sentence is superfluous and should be eliminated so to keep with the coherency of thought.

(I realize I may be getting somewhat 'long in the tooth', but I don't believe that I have fully reached the 'decrepit' stage, quite yet.) In the alternatives (a good legal phrase, FTR), one could either opt for several synonyms for "right", or infuse a conjunction for a better resultant phrase.

Yet without it we wouldn't be enjoying this enlightening conversation.

Now for the 'meat' of your post. Your purported 'rule' would be correct, were one to be attempting to make a contraction of the Southern slang "ya" and will, however, the contracted slang plural (or sometimes the singular usage of this word) is properly (assuming such a thing is actually a possibility, here) "y'all".

Perhaps this is the case, but I might make the case that linguistically the "y" does not actually carry a solid sound in the above construction. If we choose to keep with the spirit of contractions we must add a vowel, perhaps an "o", from the conjuctive in question. Yet "yo'all" is probably a closer construction to a less Southernly geographic idiom. Thus to properly meld the dipthong, the combination of a "ou" and "a" would naturally carry longer sounding "a" into the antecedant portion of the conjugation.

"Y'all take care now, ya' hear, otherwise ya'll likely to run afoul of Language Cop!"

While this might appear, on the surface, to be correct, the inclusion of a prevailing dipthong might obsfucate the rule which is proposed.

here is a link to a picture from the Commonwealth of KY, showing the 'proper' usage. :thumbs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Y'all_Water_Tower

As a firm rule, anytime we refer to individuals from the state of Kentucky to solve proper English grammar questions we have erred on the side of ignorance.

Everyone wants to be a critic! ...Mumble... - Amateurs!!!"

Signed, Language Cop

Respectfully, the right proper Earl of Linguistics.:laugh:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I thought it was dangerous to delve into the Greek

It is,

I realise that Thumper has gone back to school, but to me this is an example of extreme and dangerous error. Folks like this are saying it is dangerous to examine the language in which the original human writer penned His holy and perfect Word. It says that God was wrong to use the Greek and then waited centuries to correct this dangerous language.

This strong Ruckmanite position is far from orthodox Biblical christianity. It is man made teaching which imho has no place in the church.

 

[EdSutton]

Things could get worser...

"Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet."

My 7th Grade grammar teacher died after I submitted my theme on "What I Want for Christmas" and openning (sic) line was, "I want an official Red Ryder Carbon Action 200 shot range model air rifle!"



I second Rippon's questioning of the comma...and I'll also point out that the whole ",as well," in the above sentence is superfluous and should be eliminated so to (sic) keep with the coherency of thought.



Yet without it we wouldn't be enjoying this enlightening conversation. (

Sorry, just couldn't help myself, here! - Ed)


Perhaps this is the case, but I might make the case that linguistically the "y" does not actually carry a solid sound in the above construction. If we choose to keep with the spirit of contractions we must add a vowel, perhaps an "o", from the conjuctive (sic) in question. Yet "yo'all" is probably a closer construction to a less Southernly (sic) geographic idiom. Thus to properly meld the dipthong (sic), the combination of a "ou" and "a" would naturally carry longer sounding "a" into the antecedant (sic) portion of the conjugation.



While this might appear, on the surface, to be correct, the inclusion of a prevailing dipthong (sic) might obsfucate (sic) the rule which is proposed.

"...that he was a prophet indeed."

As a firm rule, anytime we refer to individuals from the state of Kentucky to solve proper English grammar questions we have erred on the side of ignorance.

Well, I was privileged to attend a reunion of my Bible College over the past Labor Day weekend, at the Marietta Conference Center, and I understand that it was was found that when I drove from Kentucky to Georgia, I single-handedly managed to lower the IQ of both states, and when I returned to Kentucky the following Tuesday, managed to elevate the IQ of both places.

However there is one thing that the statisticians found very puzzling, when they ran the figures.

It seems that on both the days I traveled, they ran across an unexplained, three-hour long upward spike in the IQ of Tennes...

Ed

 

[Mexdeaf]

I thought it was dangerous to delve into the Greek

I realise that Thumper has gone back to school, but to me this is an example of extreme and dangerous error. Folks like this are saying it is dangerous to examine the language in which the original human writer penned His holy and perfect Word. It says that God was wrong to use the Greek and then waited centuries to correct this dangerous language.

This strong Ruckmanite position is far from orthodox Biblical christianity. It is man made teaching which imho has no place in the church.

You, sir, are correct.

I cringe at the great deal of heresy that is being fed to our future pastors and Christian leaders under the guise of being so-called "old path truths". Those of us who actually walked those paths with those who blazed them know that the 'old paths' were actually much broader (at least when it comes to versions of the Scriptures) than some would like to admit.

And I further cringe at the fact that many who will be led astray by these pernicious teachings will, once they discover that they have been deceived, turn away from the faith.

 

[Mexdeaf]

"Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.""...that he was a prophet indeed."Well, I was privileged to attend a reunion of my Bible College over the past Labor Day weekend, at the Marietta Conference Center, and I understand that it was was found that when I drove from Kentucky to Georgia, I single-handedly managed to lower the IQ of both states, and when I returned to Kentucky the following Tuesday, managed to elevate the IQ of both places.

However there is one thing that the statisticians found very puzzling, when they ran the figures.

It seems that on both the days I traveled, they ran across an unexplained, three-hour long upward spike in the IQ of Tennes...

Ed

You are a righteous, er... riotous act. :laugh:

 

[EdSutton]

It is man made teaching which imho has no place in the church.

I believe your opinion of any "man made teaching" which attempts to substitute for the word(s) of God, which He has given us, should never be humble!

And that is my not-so-humble opinion on that subject!

Ed

 

[robycop3]

I hope ya do well in school, BT-and I hope you shuck the man-made KJVO doctrine while you're there!

The KJVO doctrine has no truth in it-and not one quark of SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, even from the KJV itself.

The current KJVO theory comes from a CULT OFFICIAL'S book, 7TH DAY ADVENTIST official Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson's 1930 book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated.

You cannot even BEGIN to prove that the valid MVs are any less the word of God than the KJV is, or the earlier English versions. And by "valid versions", I mean those that accurately follow the sources from which they're translated. The validity of those sources is another question entirely.

Being quite young in comparison to myself(I'll be 61 in April) I know someone has led you astray with their KJVO hooey. I hope you sincerely **PRAY** for guidance in this subject, that the HOLY SPIRIT opens your eyes to the TRUTH, that is, that KJVO is bogus as a $3 bill & is entirely MAN-MADE, as are mosta the doctrines of the Roman Catholics.

And, I shall add my prayers as well. You seem to have the makings of a great worker for the Lord, & I wish you every success, free of the man-made hooey with which some people try to pollute the IFB body of beliefs.

 

[Ed Edwards]

My wife used to be a Public Schools certified English Teacher in the state of Texas. I still can't find out what the rules for thee, thou, etc. are.
Anybody here know the rules for the personal pronouns used in the 15th century (1401-1500)? I know some people who use 'KJV talk' in their prayers - I don't think they know the rules for 15th century English either?

I guess I should check with my Daughter. She is a Public Schools certified, English as A Second Language, Elementary School (grades pre-school to 6) Teacher. She also works as the coordinator in her Elementary required by the USofA Federal Government of the programs specified for, English as A Second Language, learning by the 'No Student Left Behind' program. Not that that helps her with the thee & thou stuff. But her avocation is Medieval Fair Story Teller. So I'm sure she has to know the thee & thou stuff to be authinic.

Does anybody want to talk about other pronouns?

Do not the 'he's have to match something in the text? How about capital 'H' 'He' for member of the Holy Trinity and just little 'h' 'he' for us common folks? Some of the MVs have this, you know?

 

[EdSutton]

I hope ya do well in school, BT-and I hope you shuck the man-made KJVO doctrine while you're there!

I'll second that motion, and the Amendment to the motion, as well.

(Hey! Gomme' a beak! I'm our Church Moderator, so I don't get to do very often!) :laugh:

(I'll be 61 in April) I

Man, You are getting old!

Obviously, I'll never catch up to you, on that (considering I am four months behind you)! :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[gb93433]

My wife used to be a Public Schools certified English Teacher in the state of Texas. I still can't find out what the rules for thee, thou, etc. are.
Anybody here know the rules for the personal pronouns used in the 15th century (1401-1500)? I know some people who use 'KJV talk' in their prayers - I don't think they know the rules for 15th century English either?

I have yet to find any KJVO preacher use the KJVO language in their preaching being consistent with their view of the English language. In essence they are hypocritical about what they say and do.

 

[Keith M]

IMO, the entire KJ VO position is a man-made myth based in hypocrisy and ignorance. The problem is that, once people are hooked into the false KJVO position, it takes a lot to get them off that hook. Bible believers need to pray for KJVOs every day...

 

[gb93433]

IMO, the entire KJVO position is a man-made myth based in hypocrisy and ignorance. The problem is that, once people are hooked into the false KJVO position, it takes a lot to get them off that hook.

It is obvious to non-Christians too. However it is much like a cult and the guru leading is often looked upon as some sort of prophet or authority figure.

 

[Rippon]

I'm thankful that as English evolved, good men with vision translated the inspired Word into English of that day.

And as language evolved I was thankful for 1901 ASV. And now I'm thankful for more updating.

I am not speaking about its precision or other commendable features -- but the ASV of 1901 used Elizabethan English throughout.There was no language update as such.So the plowboys (yes,the American spelling) had to wait two more years for Weymouth's New Testament translation in 1903.The latter used modern speech.In other words it was more Tyndalish (if I may coin a word).

 

[HankD]

There is an irony in saying that it is "dangerous to delve into the Greek".

The KJV translators themselves did this (delve into the Greek and Hebrew).

Speaking of the ancient translators of the past:

If you ask what they had before them, truly it was the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, the Greek of the New.

These are the two golden pipes, or rather conduits, where-through the olive branches empty themselves into the gold. Saint Augustine calleth them precedent, or original tongues; Saint Jerome, fountains. The same Saint Jerome affirmeth, and Gratian hath not spared to put it into his Decree, That as the credit of the old Books (he meaneth of the Old Testament) is to be tried by the Hebrew Volumes, so of the New by the Greek tongue, he meaneth by the original Greek. If truth be to be tried by these tongues, then whence should a Translation be made, but out of them? These tongues therefore, the Scriptures we say in those tongues, we set before us to translate, being the tongues wherein God was pleased to speak to his Church by his Prophets and Apostles.

Emboldening my own.

Here is another contradiction to the “only” position of any group of “onlies” (such as the Latin Vulgate Only group).

Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures:

Both of these quotes are taken from the 1611 KJV Prologue The Translators to The Reader.


HankD