Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
They had ears .
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Proof ALL does not mean all men
- Thread starter Scott Downey
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Yet another attempt by the Reformed to "prove" their theory, that the death of Jesus Christ does not include the entire human race. Typically, they will take words out of the context, and suppose, through a lack of knowledge on Greek word usage, that "all", ONLY when it suits them, does not mean "everyone without exception". This puts them on the same level as the JW's, and others, who using cunning and tricks to push their unbiblical NONSENSE!
The title of this thread is: "Proof all does not mean all men", to show that Jesus only died for the "elect"
Let us take a close look at this rather foolish thread, and the comments by those who are more interested their their pet "theology", than what the Word of God actually does say!
In Romans 3:12, Paul writes, "ALL have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”. This refers to the "elect", and not all of mankind!
in verse 23 of this chapter, Paul again says, "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", which is also ONLY of the "elect", and the rest of the human race, and therefore not part of "sinners"!
In Colossians 3:22, we read: "But the scripture hath concluded ALL under sin", that is, ONLY "the elect". again, the rest of the human race is excluded, and therefore not "under sin"!
Jesus is said to have told the unbelieving Jews, that God was not their Father, and this is used to show that Jesus did not die for them! YET, these SAME unbelieving Jews, in chapter 5 of John's Gospel, who wanted to murder Jesus (verses 17-18); that He was preaching to THEM, "these things I say, that ye might be saved" (verse 34). And to these SAME Jews, that, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." (24-25); and again, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (39-40). This entire section is spoken to the Jews who wanted to murder Jesus for claiming to be "equal with God". And it is very clear, that Jesus wanted ALL of these Jews to be SAVED! THIS, is the real heart of the God of the Bible, and NOT the HERESY that Reformed theology teaches!
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
The GOSPEL is God’s enabling grace and the ONLY reason some do not have “ears to hear” is if they have become blinded or calloused against it because they have continually closed their eyes to the truth (John 12:39-41; Acts 28:23-28). There is nothing in scripture, as far as I can tell, which suggests men are born in such condition that would prevent them from responding to “the double edge sword” of the Holy Spirit’s soul piercing gospel truth (Heb. 4:12).
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Those who call themselves "5 Point Calvinists", who pretend that these "points" have the sanction of the name that the use here, John Calvin, and really DISHONEST in this, because John Calvin himself, did NOT teach that the "ALL" never did reafer to the entire human race. These are his OWN words
John 3:16
That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found inthe world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.
Mark 14:24
Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one
Colossians 1:14
He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated
And YET, these rather shameful people, will still misuse this term "Calvinism", for their unbiblical nonsense, even though the person himself they claim to follow, does NOT teach the deceptions that the hold to! This is blatant dishonesty!
Let us take another Reformed theologian, on John 3:16
But there are others of these passages, to which I think, the candid mind will admit, this sort of explanation is inapplicable. In John 3:16, make “the world” which Christ loved, to mean “the elect world,” and we reach the absurdity that some of the elect may not believe, and perish. Dabney, Lectures, 525.
The "candid mind will admit", says Dabney, that "the word" in John 3:16, does NOT mean, “the elect world”, as some try to twist this to mean! Again, this from another Reformed theologian, like Calvin, is just IGNORED!
John 3:16
That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found inthe world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.
Mark 14:24
Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one
Colossians 1:14
He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated
And YET, these rather shameful people, will still misuse this term "Calvinism", for their unbiblical nonsense, even though the person himself they claim to follow, does NOT teach the deceptions that the hold to! This is blatant dishonesty!
Let us take another Reformed theologian, on John 3:16
But there are others of these passages, to which I think, the candid mind will admit, this sort of explanation is inapplicable. In John 3:16, make “the world” which Christ loved, to mean “the elect world,” and we reach the absurdity that some of the elect may not believe, and perish. Dabney, Lectures, 525.
The "candid mind will admit", says Dabney, that "the word" in John 3:16, does NOT mean, “the elect world”, as some try to twist this to mean! Again, this from another Reformed theologian, like Calvin, is just IGNORED!
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
the death of Jesus Christ does not include the entire human race
Jesus didn't Come and Die, to have none, possibly, to believe.
None would have or would have wanted to Come to Jesus, based on their Will to Sin and Love of Darkness, as was the case with Adam and all Mankind, in Adam (because they/we would have done the same as he did; for three reasons, below
.People have to be Taught Total Depravity before they can get Limited Atonement.
If they can't be Taught Total Depravity, they won't get Limited Atonement.
Fall of Man
from: The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink
First:
"Though Adam had been made in the image of God, taken into communion with Him, fitted to rejoice in all the manifestations of His wisdom and goodness which surrounded him in Eden, nevertheless he was capable of falling.
Since it is a point which has sorely puzzled many of the Lord’s people, we will endeavor to explain how it was possible for a holy person, devoid of any corruption, to sin First, Adam’s liability to falling lay in the fact that he was just a creature.
As such he was entirely dependent on Him "which holdeth our soul in life" (Ps. 66:9).
As our natural life continues only so long as God sustains it, so it was with Adam’s spiritual life: he stood only so long as he was divinely upheld.
Moreover, as a creature, he was finite and therefore possessed no invincible power with which to repel opposition. Nor was he endowed with omniscience, which would have made him incapable of being deceived or mistaking evil for an apparent good.
Thus, though man’s original condition was one of high moral excellence. with no evil tendency in any part of his nature. with nothing in him which in the least deviated from the moral law, yet, being only a creature. he was capable of falling.
Second, Adam’s susceptibility to falling lay in his mutability. Changeableness is the very law or radical characteristic of the creature, to distinguish it from the Creator.
God alone is without variableness or shadow of turning (James 1:17).
Therefore He "cannot be tempted with evil" (James 1:13),that is, induced to sin. This statement clearly implies that the creature as such has a capacity to be so tempted—not only a depraved creature, but even an unfallen one.
Immutability and impeccability (non-liability to sin) are qualities that essentially distinguish the Creator from the creature.
The angels possess neither.
Further, God alone acts from His own power, whereas the creature acts by a power given to him which is distinct from himself.
Goodwin, pointed this out: "God’s own goodness and happiness is His ultimate end, therefore He can never act but holily, for He acts by Himself and for Himself, and so cannot fail in acting, but is holy in all His ways and works, and cannot be otherwise."
But man neither acts immediately by his own power nor is himself the legitimate end of his acting, but rather God. Thus, with all faculties, man may falter when using them.
Third, Adam’s liability to falling lay in the freedom of his will.
He was not only a rational creature, but also a moral one.
Freedom of will is a property which belongs to man as a rational and responsible being.
As we cannot separate understanding from the mind, neither can we part liberty from the will, especially in connection with things within its own sphere, especially when considering that all the faculties of man’s soul were in a state of perfection before the fall.
With Adam and Eve the freedom of their will consisted in a power of choosing or embracing what appeared agreeable and good to the dictates of their understandings, or in refusing and avoiding what was evil. There was no constraint or force laid upon them to act contrary to the dictates of their own wills.
Such freedom also infers a power to act pursuant to what the will chooses, otherwise it could not obtain the good desired or avoid the evil detested: and in such a case its liberty would be little more than a name.
Freedom of action is opposed to that which is involuntary or compelled, and the will is both self-inclining and self-determining in the acting, both internally and externally; for then only can it be said to be free."
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Gods word is quick and powerful.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Non functional ears which cant hear what God says is what GOD gave them.
Romans 11:8
Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”
But ears that hear God are only for the elect, eyes that can see with spiritual understanding of God's plan are only for the elect, God did this to the non elect, to make them blind and deaf to Him. Meaning God is not aiding them to salvation, without which help they will not be saved, as God did not choose them for salvation, they are not elect.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
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Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
2 Thessalonians 2, shows not all are chosen to be saved.
As The apostle explains to us this choice was from the beginning
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
G746 - archē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
'from the beginning' in this verse is origin, that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause.
So the choice of their salvation originated from God, not from their own decision.
That they God loved from the origin also implies before time began it originated with God that God loved them with a great love and not the others, just as Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 teach. Before they had any mind to make that choice, God made that choice for them and not the others because of His love for them. Obviously they were in His mind from the very utter beginning of how He would love them and chose them only, leaving the others with ears that cant hear, eyes that cant see, a mind that cant understand, by direct intervention of His own will.
This is so that the calling of God by election for salvation would stand as the truth. It would originate with His choice and will alone for any particular person.
Just as Romans 9 teaches
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
As The apostle explains to us this choice was from the beginning
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
G746 - archē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
'from the beginning' in this verse is origin, that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause.
So the choice of their salvation originated from God, not from their own decision.
That they God loved from the origin also implies before time began it originated with God that God loved them with a great love and not the others, just as Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 teach. Before they had any mind to make that choice, God made that choice for them and not the others because of His love for them. Obviously they were in His mind from the very utter beginning of how He would love them and chose them only, leaving the others with ears that cant hear, eyes that cant see, a mind that cant understand, by direct intervention of His own will.
This is so that the calling of God by election for salvation would stand as the truth. It would originate with His choice and will alone for any particular person.
Just as Romans 9 teaches
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Its talking about Israel s TEMPOPARY Judicial ' blindness ' . They are the elect ,proving ' elect ' has nothing to do with ' to be saved before the foundation of the world ' nonsense. No thats not what eph 1.4 means either.
The whole book of Romans is addressed to the Jews. Why do you apply it to your self presuming that you also are a Jew. There is a warning for those who claim they are Jews and are not.Claiming election for your self and not being a Jew is the same thing.
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
But did they have ears to HEAR. There is a difference. Deaf people have ears but they can't hear.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Those verses don't actually support your position.
Even today there are few places a person can go where everyone is deaf as well.
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Sure they do it's your perspective that keeps you from seeing this all you see is Calvinistic being unable to discern what is actually said in scripture by your preconceived notions. According to your perspective everything that does not line up with Calvinism is wrong. An example of this is Acts 16:31. In reality it tells me how we are saved. What does it tell you?
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Then you're a Calvinist that believes we have to believe first in order to be saved. Most Calvinist claim that Salvation comes before belief. I'm glad you answered correctly.
MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
To me he does have a partial point, David.
Judicial blinding happened to the nation because of their closing their ears and eyes to God under the first covenant ( John 12:37-41, Acts of the Apostles 28:25-29 )...
But to me, there's more to it:
The blinding of Israel only affects physical Israel, and not God's elect within the nation.
Where I don't think he's seeing it rests in Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18 and John 3:19-20 to name a few.
We as sinners need the Lord to give us "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" because of the nature of what constant disobedience has done to us as a race...
Darkened our hearts and minds ( Romans 1:21-25, Ephesians 4:17-19 ) to the point that we are unwilling to hearken to or even believe God's words.
I'm not sure what you see, but what I see is:
Israel, after the flesh and unconverted by God, did and does reject His words...
and they were always going to.
Yet He turned around and did as He told them that He would under the first covenant, which they agreed to obey all of, and blinded them for their rejection;
Again, we're back to God is sovereign, and we as men are fully responsible.
I should have been more clear. Not everyone is deaf although there are some yet even the deaf can in fact understand what is being said. Some read lips others use sign We have deaf people in church and they love the Lord as much as anyone. Sign is one of the ways men began to understand each other and in some cases is a universal type of Language.especially among the American Indians
MB
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