Proper Sunday Dress

[annsni]

Salzer - how come you won't search out the scriptures with me or In the Light? Iron sharpeneth iron.

You know, I was like you, not that long ago. The pastor taught me that what we wore was important, and I in turn preached that message. Then I came across a young man named Tyrel, whose eyesight was bad; he couldn't play baseball because he couldn't see the ball, but basketballs were big enough. So he would go down to the "nasty" part of town and play basketball with the thugs, the druggies, and the criminals; and between games, he would read gospel tracts to them. He'd have to hold the tract practically touching his nose; he told me that the first time he did it, he got surprised because he finished the tract and moved it away from his face, and all the guys he'd been playing with and reading to were listening to him. He'd expected most of them to simply leave. On Thursday nights, Tyrel would go out with me as we visited other teen-agers, and helped me lead more than one young man to the Lord.

But one day, Tyrel's parents allowed him to dye his hair a different color. The pastor sat Tyrel down and talked to him about dressing like the world, and allowing the world to influence him, and started questioning his salvation; and ended by saying that Tyrel could no longer represent the church in any capacity. Tyrel was devastated; he couldn't understand how or why his hair color meant he was headed for hell; or why it meant he wasn't allowed to preach Jesus.

That pastor literally destroyed that young man's spirit. I have no doubt Tyrel is saved, because I believe that once saved, always saved; but Tyrel was knocked out of the Lord's service. That incident led me down a road of discovery, especially concerning "soul liberty"; and it also led me to discover some things about that particular pastor, such as he had a history of joining churches just so he could eventually be voted in as pastor, or building up "friends" in the church so that he could pull them away from that church and start his own where he would be in charge.

My brother or sister in Christ, let's discuss the scriptures themselves, and see if they actually support our notions, rather than let our notions drive our understanding of scripture. For example, the analysis I gave you of Timothy; in the context of that chapter, that verse isn't telling women to "dress modestly", but how all of us should behave.

Hey, I consider myself teachable; so let's search out the scriptures and see what we come up with. What say you?

What a sad testimony. I would not push "middle class perfectionism" on someone else who did not come from that culture. We have all sorts of people coming to our church and not everyone dresses as one would think would be proper but it is all they have. I'm grateful that they darken our doorstep and allow us the privilege of ministering to them - and we are seeing lives changed. Who cares if they are in jeans and a flannel shirt - or a torn pair of pants and a $2 Walmart shirt. They are there and their hearts are bent to the Lord. Again, man looks on the outward - God doesn't.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Salzer - how come you won't search out the scriptures with me or In the Light? Iron sharpeneth iron.

You know, I was like you, not that long ago. The pastor taught me that what we wore was important, and I in turn preached that message. Then I came across a young man named Tyrel, whose eyesight was bad; he couldn't play baseball because he couldn't see the ball, but basketballs were big enough. So he would go down to the "nasty" part of town and play basketball with the thugs, the druggies, and the criminals; and between games, he would read gospel tracts to them. He'd have to hold the tract practically touching his nose; he told me that the first time he did it, he got surprised because he finished the tract and moved it away from his face, and all the guys he'd been playing with and reading to were listening to him. He'd expected most of them to simply leave. On Thursday nights, Tyrel would go out with me as we visited other teen-agers, and helped me lead more than one young man to the Lord.

But one day, Tyrel's parents allowed him to dye his hair a different color. The pastor sat Tyrel down and talked to him about dressing like the world, and allowing the world to influence him, and started questioning his salvation; and ended by saying that Tyrel could no longer represent the church in any capacity. Tyrel was devastated; he couldn't understand how or why his hair color meant he was headed for hell; or why it meant he wasn't allowed to preach Jesus.

That pastor literally destroyed that young man's spirit. I have no doubt Tyrel is saved, because I believe that once saved, always saved; but Tyrel was knocked out of the Lord's service. That incident led me down a road of discovery, especially concerning "soul liberty"; and it also led me to discover some things about that particular pastor, such as he had a history of joining churches just so he could eventually be voted in as pastor, or building up "friends" in the church so that he could pull them away from that church and start his own where he would be in charge.

My brother or sister in Christ, let's discuss the scriptures themselves, and see if they actually support our notions, rather than let our notions drive our understanding of scripture. For example, the analysis I gave you of Timothy; in the context of that chapter, that verse isn't telling women to "dress modestly", but how all of us should behave.

Hey, I consider myself teachable; so let's search out the scriptures and see what we come up with. What say you?

I have known my fair share of pastors like that. Some just do not know better, but most are church-destroyers, aka wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[salzer mtn]

Don you seem to be a sincere person. From the beginning of my post i stated as long as a garmet is clean it doesn't matter if it is a suit or overalls. If someone came in of the streets looking like John the Baptist i have no problem with that. But if John continually comes week after week and smells like the wilderness should the congregation be expected to smell him week after week. If he was offended by the pastor explaining to him he needed to wash and put some clean clothes on, then old John is just a rebellious person. I still won't go along with women wearing pants in the church. As i have said, if it is a young lady built like ( use your imagination) that comes dressed like this week after week i question myself, what is her real purpose for being there. Some churches in my area have what they call a old timers day. The men dress like farmers and the women come in long dresses. I don't agree with this because the emphasis of the service is centered around dress. It's just a gimmick to get people to come to church. I don't go to churches like this because of doctrinal differences. I guess what really got the snow ball going down hill is when after my first post the next poster came back and said, well i guess we know what tripps your drigger.

 

[salzer mtn]

Going rabbit hunting, be back later.

 

[InTheLight]

From the beginning of my post i stated as long as a garmet is clean it doesn't matter if it is a suit or overalls. If someone came in of the streets looking like John the Baptist i have no problem with that. But if John continually comes week after week and smells like the wilderness should the congregation be expected to smell him week after week. If he was offended by the pastor explaining to him he needed to wash and put some clean clothes on, then old John is just a rebellious person.

I think you are changing your position. Here is your first post on the matter:

In all the churches i attended as a child growing up people dressed up or as the saying goes they put on their Sunday best. In some churches in my area they still do but as the times has changed you see less men with a suit on and tie or a lady with a dress on. I know clothes don't have anything to do with being spiritual unless there is a lack of clothing but i do think it shows the world that when you go to the house of God to worship God you have enough respect for His presence to clothe your body in the best you have whether it be a suit, or the best over-alls you have.

Which caused me to ask the (still unanswered) question about whether women wearing gold jewelry, pearls, fancy hairdos, and expensive dresses, i.e. their "Sunday best" should be allowable, considering 1 Tim. 2:9.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Going rabbit hunting, be back later.

"Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wabbits"

 

[salzer mtn]

I think you are changing your position. Here is your first post on the matter:



Which caused me to ask the (still unanswered) question about whether women wearing gold jewelry, pearls, fancy hairdos, and expensive dresses, i.e. their "Sunday best" should be allowable, considering 1 Tim. 2:9.

There are people that go to churches for many different reasons other than worshipping the Lord. Some go to see and be seen, some go for prestige purposes, some go just to fellowship. Some go because they simply were brought up in a church and it's just habbit. Years ago where i live in the horse and wagon day's, when your nearest neighbor lived at least two miles or more from you, a lot of people went to church on Sunday because that was one of the few places to go to meet and fellowship for some that didn't go for the real reason. Maybe it's more culture than anything else but after working all week in the fields or at a saw mill, men and women put on their Sunday best when they went to church because other than going to town on occasion they stayed at home on the farm or at work. Im sure in those days if some rich lady was to move in and start going to church wearing her gold jewelry, pearls, fancy hairdo and a fancy dress among hard working poor women it might cause gossip, backbitting, and insecurity. Back when this scripture was written the majority of people were poor that went to church. Today this same woman decked in her fine linen would not be out of place at all among at lot of richer church members.

 

[Don]

Don you seem to be a sincere person. From the beginning of my post i stated as long as a garmet is clean it doesn't matter if it is a suit or overalls. If someone came in of the streets looking like John the Baptist i have no problem with that. But if John continually comes week after week and smells like the wilderness should the congregation be expected to smell him week after week. If he was offended by the pastor explaining to him he needed to wash and put some clean clothes on, then old John is just a rebellious person. I still won't go along with women wearing pants in the church. As i have said, if it is a young lady built like ( use your imagination) that comes dressed like this week after week i question myself, what is her real purpose for being there. Some churches in my area have what they call a old timers day. The men dress like farmers and the women come in long dresses. I don't agree with this because the emphasis of the service is centered around dress. It's just a gimmick to get people to come to church. I don't go to churches like this because of doctrinal differences. I guess what really got the snow ball going down hill is when after my first post the next poster came back and said, well i guess we know what tripps your drigger.

As for your example of Old John - I knew a guy like that in Colorado. His name was Gordon. You could always tell what he had for breakfast by looking at his beard. Sometimes you could tell what he had for breakfast yesterday. And he'd take a bath, when the water company received a payment and turned his water back on. But Gordon also did "chalk talks"; bible stories that he told while drawing pictures with chalk. It always amazed me that we could have 200 kids under the age of 12 causing us all kinds of confusion and stress; but whenever Gordon started his talks, there was absolute silence. It was one of the most powerful things I've ever seen, and a most powerful way of how God used someone that most of us typically looked down on because of how he looked and smelled.

As for the example of the woman, I agree with you. But I don't just stop there; I also look at the woman who came to church wearing $100,000 pearls and have to ask, "who are you here to impress? God or us?"

And while we're talking about well-formed women, let's not forget well-formed men. That pastor I mentioned in a previous post would take a few moments each sermon to talk about women wearing sleeveless blouses; while ignoring the fact that men wear sleeveless shirts all the time. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing him talk about how men should dress; it was only about women. Let's face it: How many of us guys start strutting like a fancy peacock when we're around pretty girls? How come that pastor didn't preach to all of God's children?

You had a very good post when you talked about being careful not to cause others to stumble. You stopped a little short, though; you should have included Romans 15:1. In fact, some years back on this very message board, I posted a small rant about weak Christians, Christians who think they're strong, and strong Christians. A weak Christian says "you can't." A Christian who think they're strong says "I can." A strong Christian says, "I can -- but I won't, because my brother is weak."

That said, we can't go around all the time wondering if we're making others stumble. The follow-up to "I can, but I won't" is the gist of Romans 15:1, which is to build the weaker brother up; not let him remain weak, but educate, exhort, and make him/her strong.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

There are people that go to churches for many different reasons other than worshipping the Lord. Some go to see and be seen, some go for prestige purposes, some go just to fellowship. Some go because they simply were brought up in a church and it's just habbit. Years ago where i live in the horse and wagon day's, when your nearest neighbor lived at least two miles or more from you, a lot of people went to church on Sunday because that was one of the few places to go to meet and fellowship for some that didn't go for the real reason. Maybe it's more culture than anything else but after working all week in the fields or at a saw mill, men and women put on their Sunday best when they went to church because other than going to town on occasion they stayed at home on the farm or at work. Im sure in those days if some rich lady was to move in and start going to church wearing her gold jewelry, pearls, fancy hairdo and a fancy dress among hard working poor women it might cause gossip, backbitting, and insecurity. Back when this scripture was written the majority of people were poor that went to church. Today this same woman decked in her fine linen would not be out of place at all among at lot of richer church members.

Nice. You admitted that dressing up is just a tradition, not Biblical, while completely avoided the substance of the question. Congrats!

 

[salzer mtn]

And while we're talking about well-formed women, let's not forget well-formed men. That pastor I mentioned in a previous post would take a few moments each sermon to talk about women wearing sleeveless blouses; while ignoring the fact that men wear sleeveless shirts all the time. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing him talk about how men should dress; it was only about women. Let's face it: How many of us guys start strutting like a fancy peacock when we're around pretty girls? How come that pastor didn't preach to all of God's children?

My father-in-law lived to be 90 years old and as long as i knew him he never wore a short sleeve shirt. I can see your point on a well built man, wearing clothing that might cause some women to desire him. It can work both ways. What a lot of men and women don't understand when they say my spouse would not lust after the opposite sex is, every person does not react the same way every time, given the same circumstances. you may be on the highest hill top one day and in the deepest valley the next. It can be on the hill top that Satan temps you to pride, in the valley of dispare Satan comes to us to tempt telling us whats the use to go on, throw in the towel, you were happier when you were not going to church than you are now. So for the weaker brother, i would say men and women both should watch their garments.

 

[InTheLight]

Nice. You admitted that dressing up is just a tradition, not Biblical, while completely avoided the substance of the question. Congrats!

Pretty much. That is the problem with setting rules like "women shouldn't wear pants to church" when the Bible doesn't say anything about it. But when the Bible says, women should not wear "gold, pearls, or expensive clothes" there is little or no condemnation. I guess you are allowed to broadly apply scripture ('women should dress modestly") to make up rules to fit your particular issue (no pants on women).

As long as we're on the subject another verse that gets broad application by stricter sects of Baptists is 1 John 2:15, Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him which of course means that you shouldn't attend movies, listen to pop music, play cards, or go to sporting events.

 

[Monster]

Pretty much. That is the problem with setting rules like "women shouldn't wear pants to church" when the Bible doesn't say anything about it. But when the Bible says, women should not wear "gold, pearls, or expensive clothes" there is little or no condemnation. I guess you are allowed to broadly apply scripture ('women should dress modestly") to make up rules to fit your particular issue (no pants on women).

As long as we're on the subject another verse that gets broad application by stricter sects of Baptists is 1 John 2:15, Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him which of course means that you shouldn't attend movies, listen to pop music, play cards, or go to sporting events.

Phew! I hate sports and would never go to see them...looks like I'm in!:thumbsup:

 

[InTheLight]

Phew! I hate sports and would never go to see them...looks like I'm in!:thumbsup:

Well, that's fine so long as you maintain it's a personal preference. But if you go around saying the Bible, according to 1 John 2:15, says it's a sin to go to a football game, I'm not agreeing.

 

[salzer mtn]

Pretty much. That is the problem with setting rules like "women shouldn't wear pants to church" when the Bible doesn't say anything about it. But when the Bible says, women should not wear "gold, pearls, or expensive clothes" there is little or no condemnation. I guess you are allowed to broadly apply scripture ('women should dress modestly") to make up rules to fit your particular issue (no pants on women).

As long as we're on the subject another verse that gets broad application by stricter sects of Baptists is 1 John 2:15, Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him which of course means that you shouldn't attend movies, listen to pop music, play cards, or go to sporting events.

I'm thinking of riding my horse to church next Sunday and set him right on the front pew, after all the bible don't say anything against it. Whatcha thank ?

 

[salzer mtn]

As long as we're on the subject another verse that gets broad application by stricter sects of Baptists is 1 John 2:15, Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him which of course means that you shouldn't attend movies, listen to pop music, play cards, or go to sporting events.

When a person loves a item or someone they cherish it, they have a passion for it, they are attracted to it, they have a strong affection for it. If you have these desires toward those things that you typed in your post then they are your God and the love toward the Father is not in you because you have set your effections on earthly things.

 

[saturneptune]

When a person loves a item or someone they cherish it, they have a passion for it, they are attracted to it, they have a strong affection for it. If you have these desires toward those things that you typed in your post then they are your God and the love toward the Father is not in you because you have set your effections on earthly things.

You seem very focused on worldly things. It may be in a negative way, but that is all you seem to think about. It almost seems like you have a genuine fear of material objects. That is all they are is objects. The daily Christian walk is not as you describe. One who is walking with Jesus everyday thinks about spiritual things. These things are no concern one way (pursuit of worldly goods) or the other (an unhealthy fear of objects to the point of being obcessed. People like this think so much about the harm this or that does, they have no time for Jesus Christ.

Your posts really miss the concept.

 

[annsni]

I'm thinking of riding my horse to church next Sunday and set him right on the front pew, after all the bible don't say anything against it. Whatcha thank ?

Now I'd be having a problem with that. You're definitely dressed all wrong!! Now if you came in dressed properly, then maybe:

 

[Arbo]

Aww... Annsni, you beat me to it.

I was going to post:

I'm thinking of riding my horse to church next Sunday and set him right on the front pew, after all the bible don't say anything against it. Whatcha thank ?

As long as your horse isn't dressed immodestly like this:

 

[annsni]

But it's a skirt!!!

 

[salzer mtn]

You seem very focused on worldly things. It may be in a negative way, but that is all you seem to think about. It almost seems like you have a genuine fear of material objects. That is all they are is objects. The daily Christian walk is not as you describe. One who is walking with Jesus everyday thinks about spiritual things. These things are no concern one way (pursuit of worldly goods) or the other (an unhealthy fear of objects to the point of being obcessed. People like this think so much about the harm this or that does, they have no time for Jesus Christ.

Your posts really miss the concept.

One who claims to be a christain but is caught up in worldly activity to the extreem certainly doesn't have time to walk with Jesus every day or think about Spiritual things, wouldn't you agree. One learns to do in moderation when it comes to worldy things, wouldn't you agree. But I guess it would depend upon what your interpretation of walking with Jesus is. When Jesus told the disciples, come follow me and i will make you fishers of men, they followed him, but first they left there nets. The closer a person gets to the Lord, the gold of this world becomes fools gold. The more you fall in love with the Lord, the less you love the world. Christ becomes everything to you. He is not just one thing you hold dear, he is everything you hold dear.