Prophecy and Tongues

[Gina B]

This is one issue that has always caused me some confusion, because it doesn't appear to have been "for the times" and taken away, as other things in the early church seem to have been.

Acts says these things were happening, and prophesied to happen in the last days. Aren't these still the last days? Surely the last days haven't ended.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


So if that's the case, why would prophecy and tongues no longer be part of things?



If they're not, how do we know they ended? Where is that?



How would you handle it if you were a pastor and felt strongly that someone was meant to speak, and you asked if someone had something to say, and they spoke out in a tongue nobody knew, and then someone stood up and interpreted it right after? How would you react and what would you say/do in that situation?



What would you do as a member, not the pastor?

 

[beameup]

It was partially fulfilled (see Acts), but its complete fulfillment is during the Tribulation,
after the "Bride of Christ" is removed from the earth (harpazo).

 

[OldRegular]

It was partially fulfilled (see Acts), but its complete fulfillment is during the Tribulation,
after the "Bride of Christ" is removed from the earth (harpazo).

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[agedman]

This is one issue that has always caused me some confusion, because it doesn't appear to have been "for the times" and taken away, as other things in the early church seem to have been.

Acts says these things were happening, and prophesied to happen in the last days. Aren't these still the last days? Surely the last days haven't ended.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


So if that's the case, why would prophecy and tongues no longer be part of things?

You remember that tongues in the Scriptures mean languages spoken that are not native to the speaker. It was never some heavenly utterance that needed interpretation. Acts records that people heard the gospel in their own native language.

The only place in which "tongues" may be involved is when the believer is so overwhelmed they have no ability to rationally pray: "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words"

BUT then the believer wouldn't realize they were using "tongues" but one passing by might think they were drunk - remember Hannah being confronted by Eli?

There are missionary accounts in which a missionary spoke say in English but the folks heard it in their own language. Those occurrences are not what the typical charisma thinking person considers as "tongues."

If they're not, how do we know they ended? Where is that?

Folks usually point to Corinthians: "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away...."

There are some who do not accept this verse as any "gifts" ceased, some do because the "that which is perfect" is assumed to mean the Scriptures being complete.

How would you handle it if you were a pastor and felt strongly that someone was meant to speak, and you asked if someone had something to say, and they spoke out in a tongue nobody knew, and then someone stood up and interpreted it right after? How would you react and what would you say/do in that situation?

In your illustration, if the pastor "felt strongly that someone was meant to speak" then it follows that the pastor would also be enlightened as who that person was. God doesn't leave those matters up to humankind engineering.

So, I don't expect a pastor to just ask if "someone had something to say."

What would you do as a member, not the pastor?

Sit quietly, not say a word one way or another. I pray for the leadership of the church that they will be very wise in how to handle the situation.

As a member of the assembly, I am not the one to bring any accusation, but respectfully wait upon the leadership to deal appropriately.

 

[Revmitchell]

This is one issue that has always caused me some confusion, because it doesn't appear to have been "for the times" and taken away, as other things in the early church seem to have been.

Acts says these things were happening, and prophesied to happen in the last days. Aren't these still the last days? Surely the last days haven't ended.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


So if that's the case, why would prophecy and tongues no longer be part of things?



If they're not, how do we know they ended? Where is that?



How would you handle it if you were a pastor and felt strongly that someone was meant to speak, and you asked if someone had something to say, and they spoke out in a tongue nobody knew, and then someone stood up and interpreted it right after? How would you react and what would you say/do in that situation?



What would you do as a member, not the pastor?

The issue is not whether they should still be happening. Scripture no where declares them that way. The real issue is the nature of them. What does on in a lot of churches is an abomination and only feeds the flesh.

 

[salzer mtn]

After the Lord saved me I no longer speak with a blasphemes tongue, but I speak with a new tongue of phrase to God.

 

[exscentric]

Tongues is often related to healing. All the arguments relating to tongues seem to have answers from both sides yet healing was very definite. COMPLETE healing of disease. Paul was healing by proxy in Acts - they took handkerchiefs from him to outlying areas and people were healed YET later in his ministry he could not heal himself, Timothy or one other (whom he left sick) thus indication of his gift of healing had diminished/passed away.

If that doesn't do it invite a local charismatic to come on down to your local hospital and empty it, the news should pick it up and all will know healing is still here as Paul did it. Have invited many over the years and none have shown up.

This has nothing to do with the healing spoken of in James where a specific process is laid out.

 

[beameup]

Tongues is often related to healing. All the arguments relating to tongues seem to
have answers from both sides yet healing was very definite. COMPLETE healing of disease. Paul was healing by proxy in Acts -
they took handkerchiefs from him to outlying areas and people were healed YET later in his ministry he could not heal himself,
Timothy or one other (whom he left sick) thus indication of his gift of healing had diminished/passed away.

The "sign gifts" diminished and finally totally passed away with the passing away of the Nation of Israel.
The "sign gifts" will return to those believing Israelis during the Tribulation, with the removal of the Bride of Christ from the earth.

It is very common for prophecies to be "partially fulfilled" with the Tribulation being the complete fulfillment.
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;
he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering
of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Luke 4:18-19 & 21b
Jesus left out the rest of the prophecy for fulfillment at a later date:
and the day of vengeance of our God (ie: Tribulation). Isa 61

This is regular old standard understanding of prophecy :laugh:

 

[JonC]

What would you do as a member, not the pastor?

I understand your question to be that if tongues were practiced as described in Scripture, then how would I react. I would hope that I’d re-evaluate my understanding and at least allow the possibility (if practiced biblically - not meaning my interpretation of when tongues may cease, but strictly from a biblical standpoint). I may, however, think that this was a hoax contrived by two other members. I tend to allow my own understanding to dictate what I will believe, although I try not to.

 

[Gina B]

Healing? Where can I find information on that? If that's what it is about, why does it say that it doesn't benefit anyone but the person speaking, that it is just private communication, but the interpreter is the one who causes benefit to others because he/she can tell others what is being said? And it says to only have a couple speak at a time, and only with an interpreter or it will not benefit anyone because then they won't know what the words are. Where does healing fit in there?

I understand a lot of things died down, but does that mean that they weren't meant to be continued? Is there any chance that we're afraid of things that may hit too hard spiritually, and may cause fear because we haven't seen them and since we haven't, we only associate them with evil now? That the enemy has taken a good thing and mimicked it, and now we have a good thing gone from our lives simply because we let fear take over, rather than the truth?

Or is it really all just fake stuff now? I don't know. I've seen some crazy stuff that seems so fake. I've also never seen a really good argument against it being taken away, but I've pretty much just always believed what I was told...that it is not for our times, that it's fake, something to fear, and it wasn't much of an issue to think about and seemed like a side issue, so why worry about it? It was easier to just go with what is commonly said.

But that isn't making sense to me when I'm just sitting here reading the Bible. Everything I'm reading goes against what I've been told and that bothers me. Even if it isn't something personal to me, the truth matters.

So I need to know the truth.

 

[TipofTheTongueTheology]

Study Material....

Healing? Where can I find information on that? If that's what it is about, why does it say that it doesn't benefit anyone but the person speaking, that it is just private communication, but the interpreter is the one who causes benefit to others because he/she can tell others what is being said? And it says to only have a couple speak at a time, and only with an interpreter or it will not benefit anyone because then they won't know what the words are. Where does healing fit in there?

I understand a lot of things died down, but does that mean that they weren't meant to be continued? Is there any chance that we're afraid of things that may hit too hard spiritually, and may cause fear because we haven't seen them and since we haven't, we only associate them with evil now? That the enemy has taken a good thing and mimicked it, and now we have a good thing gone from our lives simply because we let fear take over, rather than the truth?

Or is it really all just fake stuff now? I don't know. I've seen some crazy stuff that seems so fake. I've also never seen a really good argument against it being taken away, but I've pretty much just always believed what I was told...that it is not for our times, that it's fake, something to fear, and it wasn't much of an issue to think about and seemed like a side issue, so why worry about it? It was easier to just go with what is commonly said.

But that isn't making sense to me when I'm just sitting here reading the Bible. Everything I'm reading goes against what I've been told and that bothers me. Even if it isn't something personal to me, the truth matters.

So I need to know the truth.

I am not about to write a note thinking that I can answer all of your questions because as you have probably have seen this is not a simple topic. But I can share with you some helpful material. It will take time to study it but if you want to get a better understanding, if you haven't already, you should study this material.

Links:
1. http://tipofthetonguetheology.blogspot.com/search/label/Continuationism

2. http://www.gty.org/resources/Sermon-Series/219

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM

Though you may not agree with everything that is in the material it will at least give you a better understanding of the arguments. My studies have led me to be a soft continuist. I do not believe the Bible is a cessationist book but I do see its emphasis of spiritual gifts primarily for the early church, particularly to fulfill prophecy.

Respectfully, :thumbsup:
Tip of the Tongue Theology
http://tipofthetonguetheology.blogspot.com/

 

[prophet]

Prophecy is simply revealing the Word of God. We have a closed 'Canon' a more sure word of prophecy than having, the Father speak out loud from Heaven, while Jesus stands next to you, Peter said.
First called Seers(see-ers), prophets had the Word revealed to them in 'visions' that they 'saw' while in a trance, or asleep, I Sam. explains.
Later called 'prophets', with no change to the method of revelation, these gave way to the last revelators, called apostles. These apostles had also witnessed the risen Christ.
One of these, Peter, explained that we have a more sure Word of prophecy. Paul admonishes us to covet the best gifts, rather prophecy, than any other.
I Cor. 14 even gives us the setting of teaching the Word in the assembly being prophecy.
Prophecy is a gift.
Prophecy is still very much available.
Prophecy is now relegated to teaching the revealed written Word, and no longer includes receiving intransic revelation, or dreams.

Please go investigate the scriptures, and see If these things be so :2Pe 1:17-21
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So if that's the case, why would prophecy and tongues no longer be part of things?

Peter quoted the prophet Joel here, specifically Joel 2:28-32. There have been three primary views concerning Peter’s explanation of Joel’s prophecy. The three views are: 1) prophecy is fulfilled in the church; 2) prophecy is fulfilled in the future; and 3) the church presently benefits by the New Covenant and, hence, was launched at Pentecost, though the prophecy was not completely fulfilled.

Those who argue for complete fulfillment say Joel’s prophecy was completely fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. The adherents of this argument must live by a non-literal hermeneutic in order to "spiritualize" the cataclysmic events involved with this prophecy. The argument that there is no fulfillment of Joel in Acts, is primarily based on the fact that Joel’s text is addressed specifically to the Jew and the context is clearly the "Day of the Lord" that future time of final judgment on all the nations including Israel.

I subscribe to the third interpretation. The partial or continuous fulfillment argument says Joel’s prophecy was partially fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost, but finds complete fulfillment in the future. In this argument, the outpouring of the Spirit is fulfilled but the rest of the prophecy with regard to Israel is future. In this view a distinction between the church and Israel is preserved, and, hence, satisfies Peter’s statement "this is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel." Since the Old Testament promise of the outpouring of the Spirit is linked to the New Covenant, there is no reason to dissociate Joel’s prophecy from those of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Zechariah.

This goes along with my dispensational view of the Bible, in that it unites the Jewish and Gentile believers under their own commonality, i.e., faith in Christ toward salvation. It does not negate, as many attempt to do, a literal fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant to faithful -- through Christ -- Israel. I believe that tongues, prophecy and "knowledge" -- to be interpreted as "special knowledge" that God gave to an individual, or those around him/her, in regards to a calling or ministry God had for them -- passed into disuse when the canon of Scripture was completed, and was in fact dying out as Paul wrote his many letters to the churches of Europe, Asia and the Mideast while under house arrest in Rome.

With the completion of the canon, the believer has everything he/she needs in order to bring peace to the chaos, and understand the will of God for his/her life. Discipleship, Bible study both individually and corporately, and prayer can help clarify any confusion, and that includes speaking with mature believers who can help one discern what God is saying. That doesn't require "special knowledge" as the mature believer has presumably been in the Word long enough to be able to help decipher the impressions the newer believer may be having during that study and prayer time.

In answer to your question ...

... how do we know they ended? Where is that?

... it is in Paul's first letter to the church at Corinth.

1 Corinthians 13, NASB
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.​

Here Paul writes of the three "signs and wonders" gifts in use at the time the gospel was being spread throughout the known world. These are not what Peter was talking about in the Temple courts that day of Pentecost. He was speaking of the giving of the Holy Spirit, but not of the complete fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel, which will not be completed until the 144,000 Jewish evangelists come forth during the Tribulation. Many will claim that this passage speaks not of the canon, but of Christ, as being "the perfect to come," but Christ is not a "the." Christ is a Person, and the article used to describe "the perfect" is neuter, and cannot be speaking of any person, Christ, or anyone else.

How would you handle it if you were a pastor and felt strongly that someone was meant to speak, and you asked if someone had something to say, and they spoke out in a tongue nobody knew, and then someone stood up and interpreted it right after? How would you react and what would you say/do in that situation?

Obviously I do not believe this will happen, because I don't believe tongues are valid today, and therefore no one is truly "inspired" to so speak. If someone were to interrupt a service in that fashion, whether at the pastor's "invitation" or not, God is not the author of confusion. He is not going to interrupt worship with nonsense. Therefore, the interruption would come from the other end of the spiritual spectrum.

What would you do as a member, not the pastor?

Get up and leave. I have no desire to be in a church that encourages disruption, confusion, and lies.

 

[prophet]

Exo 7:1
Chapter 7
1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh:and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
(KJV)
Aaron was simply to speak Moses' words. Prophecy defined.

 

[Luke2427]

This is one issue that has always caused me some confusion, because it doesn't appear to have been "for the times" and taken away, as other things in the early church seem to have been.

Acts says these things were happening, and prophesied to happen in the last days. Aren't these still the last days? Surely the last days haven't ended.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So if that's the case, why would prophecy and tongues no longer be part of things?



If they're not, how do we know they ended? Where is that?



How would you handle it if you were a pastor and felt strongly that someone was meant to speak, and you asked if someone had something to say, and they spoke out in a tongue nobody knew, and then someone stood up and interpreted it right after? How would you react and what would you say/do in that situation?



What would you do as a member, not the pastor?

These are good questions.

This was inaugural of the age- not intended to permeate it. We know this because...

1. It hasn't. Before the birth of the Pentecostal movement at the turn of the last century almost NNE practiced "tongues" and "prophecy" for nearly two thousand years. A few extremely small heretical groups would pop up for a brief span here and there throughout history and then it would go silent for hundreds of years and then another group might pop up for a few years and go away and so on.
One of the best proofs for the cessation of the charismatic gifts is... that they CEASED. They really did. I don't think any reputable scholar denies this fact.

2. The Bible said it would cease. I Corinthians 13 says that the revelation they were getting at the time was like that of a child that when he grows up his child like speech would go away and be replaced with better, more full speech. Tongues and prophecy maintained the church until the better source of revelation could be completed- the Word of God. When that which is full (perfect) is come then that which is in part (tongues and prophecy) is done away.

3. The Biblical and historical pattern of miracles is that they pop up for a brief span of time, usher in a new age and disappear. That's why no one is parting great bodies of water today. That miracle ceased. It was a gift given to a few, accomplished what it was supposed to accomplish and went away. One should no more expect to speak in tongues today than he should expect to part the Red Sea. Miracles are always for brief spans of time and them go away.

With the infallible word of God speaking on the outside and the Holy Spirit of God speaking on the inside we have something far better than prophecy and tongues. To want them is to want to go backwards. They were a means to an end. We get the end (the complete Word of God to guide us).

 

[Aaron]

This is one issue that has always caused me some confusion, because it doesn't appear to have been "for the times" and taken away, as other things in the early church seem to have been.

Acts says these things were happening, and prophesied to happen in the last days. Aren't these still the last days? Surely the last days haven't ended.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


So if that's the case, why would prophecy and tongues no longer be part of things?



If they're not, how do we know they ended? Where is that?



How would you handle it if you were a pastor and felt strongly that someone was meant to speak, and you asked if someone had something to say, and they spoke out in a tongue nobody knew, and then someone stood up and interpreted it right after? How would you react and what would you say/do in that situation?



What would you do as a member, not the pastor?

It's like asking how to know which writings are inspired and which are not. No one is going to have a satisfactory answer for you on this subject. I think Revmitchell had the best answer so far.

That doesn't mean that you can't know. Ask the Lord and focus on the things you do know. The Apostle said he would rather speak five words in a known tongue than 10,000 in an unknown tongue, so don't worry that you might be missing out on something while you wait for His answer.

 

[Gina B]

You guys really pulled through on this one. Thank you for all the wisdom and sharing the resources for me to go study with. This shall keep me busy for a time as I go through it all.

TND, thanks for that well written post - it was appreciated!

 

[Iconoclast]

thisnumbersdisconnected

Those who argue for complete fulfillment say Joel’s prophecy was completely fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. The adherents of this argument must live by a non-literal hermeneutic in order to "spiritualize" the cataclysmic events involved with this prophecy.

This is not at all biblically accurate in that metaphorical language used has a literal meaning.....in the bible...the sun moon and stars speak of government administrations being replaced or completely destroyed.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

This is not at all biblically accurate in that metaphorical language used has a literal meaning.....in the bible...the sun moon and stars speak of government administrations being replaced or completely destroyed.

That's true if one adheres to an ethereally spiritual, rather than "real-time" physical, eschatology. Otherwise, the literal nature of the language must be interpreted as describing literal, real-time events. Your methodology has numerous problems with overreaching to explain a real event as being spiritual in nature.

 

[Rhys]

I've struggled a bit with 1 Corinthians 14:

1. Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

If 'tongues' just means 'foreign languages,' how is it that none but God may understand the speaker?