Prophecy concerning Israel

[Logos1]

Well, that is a nice theory, but you cannot deny that Israel has been reestablished as a nation. There is no other nation that has come back into existence after 1878 years. It is there whether you like it or not. To deny it is to deny reality.

What you do not understand is that the majority of Jews still believe themselves under the Old Covenant. They are going to build the temple, they are going to reestablish the sacrifices. I showed links where the Jews have already made many of the vessels for the temple.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/vessels_gallery_a1.htm

The Jews do not really care what you believe, they are planning to rebuild the temple and institute the sacrifices again. Period.

But there is a small remnant of Jews who will be saved during the tribulation, 144,000. This small remnant will accept Christ, the rest will not.

Jesus did not return in 70 A.D., and a person truly makes a fool of themselves trying to tell the world he did. Trust me, if Jesus returned in 70 A.D., the whole wide world would know about it. He is GOD. It would be known in every nation, it would be in ten thousands of books. When Jesus returns it will not be a secret as you would have people believe.

No one has attempted to deny the state of Israel exists. The fact that they exists does not mean they are in a covenant relationship with God. Their covenant relationship ended with the Old Covenant ended.

You are missing the point--I'm not making a point about what I believe--its about the work of Christ and what he said, did, and told us to believe. "The Jews don't care what I believe" I love the way you say that--but Christ didn't care that they believed they were still under the Old Covenant he still fulfilled the law and prophets and brought in the New Covenant whether they accepted it or not and the apostles spent the rest of the new testament telling us about it and that the way to salvation was through Christ not the Old Covenant law regardless of what the Jews believed. If you don't accept that you are arguing with Christ and the apostles not with me.

Misguided people can rebuild a physical temple but God won't honor it nor any sacrifices they make in it. In fact that is blasphemy against Christ. He said he is the ONLY WAY to the Father so going Old Covenant in the future won't cut it to wash away sin nor get you into heaven. It just denies the words and work of Christ.

Trust me on this one my friend the only way you will get into heaven is to go through Christ not through temple sacrifices.

And one final point--Christ did return in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD just as he said he would. He didn't say that would be the end of time. Just as he didn't force the Jews to recognize his first coming he didn't force Christians to recognize his second coming.

 

[Winman]

Misguided people can rebuild a physical temple but God won't honor it nor any sacrifices they make in it. In fact that is blasphemy against Christ. He said he is the ONLY WAY to the Father so going Old Covenant in the future won't cut it to wash away sin nor get you into heaven. It just denies the words and work of Christ.

Trust me on this one my friend the only way you will get into heaven is to go through Christ not through temple sacrifices.

And one final point--Christ did return in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD just as he said he would. He didn't say that would be the end of time. Just as he didn't force the Jews to recognize his first coming he didn't force Christians to recognize his second coming.

I am in absolute agreement with you that the only way to heaven for anyone is by trusting in Jesus Christ and him alone. Rebuilding the temple and reinstituting the sacrifices may be blasphemy, but that is what the scriptures say will take place.

And there is a problem in saying Jesus returned in 70 A.D.. If the 70 weeks were continuous without gap as RAdam argues, then Jesus should have returned around 40 A.D., not 70 A.D.. Isn't that so?

There is more evidence for this than 70 A.D. in the scriptures. For instance, Jesus said they will not have gone through all of the cities of Israel before he returns. Well, in Acts 8 it says there was a great persecution under Saul (Paul) and the believers fled "every where"

Matt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Now, in Acts 8 see that the believers were persecuted and fled "throughout" the regions of Judaea and Samaria. In fact, they fled into other countries as well, this is why Saul went to Damascus.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Most scholars believe this great persecution took place within one or two years of Jesus being crucified. Believers were fleeing for their lives and were scatted everywhere. Why didn't Jesus come at this time?

So, those of your persuasion tell us we are in error to believe there was a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, but you have a gap as well. This is inconsistent.

And once again, when Jesus returns it will be the greatest event in all of human history. Every single living person on earth will know about it. This did not happen in 70 A.D..

 

[Logos1]

Futurism breaks down every where you attempted to defend it based on the bible.

Good to hear from you Winman, my futurist friend.

The scriptures don’t say anything about rebuilding the temple a third time (if you should fine any biblical reference that says “3rd” please be kind enough to share it with us). Since the temple is strictly an Old Covenant feature and not needed in the New Covenant any future temple build is done outside the plan of God and work of Christ. Think about it Winman—if Jesus took away the sin of the World—what purpose could animal sacrifices serve. It’s just misguided people not understanding the bible. People setting themselves up in direct conflict with God’s divine plan and the work and words of Christ. Why support this misguided effort if you think the blood of Christ is what washes away our sin? Why join in a blasphemy against Christ?

I’m sorry Winman, but somebody has confused you with what the bible says about the 70 weeks. The bible doesn’t say anything about a gap—needing to add a gap when the bible doesn’t allow for it is just one more example of futurist distorting the bible so they can twist the proverbial second coming into something future to us. I don’t usually don’t even bother arguing the 70 weeks, but it is simple. Here’s the deal.

I’m going to assume for the sake of brevity we are pretty much in agreement through the 69th week. The 70th week starts when Christ is baptized. Then half way into the week, after 3.5 years Christ is cut-off. This is when his atonement renders the temple sacrifices useless. Then for 3.5 more years the spreading of Christianity is done only among the Jews. Notice Daniel 9:24 seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city… note the 70 weeks is decreed for the Jewish people to learn about and accept Christ as the Messiah which completes the 70 years. Then the spreading of Christianity is carried to the gentiles.

Your next paragraph when you mix up not going through all the cities with fleeing every where you are mingling unrelated parts of the scripture to confuse. I find obfuscation such as that a typical futurist tactic. Come on Winman I expected better than that from you—don’t stoop to it.

Excuse me, “Most scholars believe this great persecution took place within one or two years of Jesus being crucified.” Would you be referring to the great tribulation—I thought you futurist put that in our future. Which “most scholars” would that be—care to name a few?

And finally you stated in error “when Jesus returns it will be the greatest event in all of human history. Every single living person on earth will know about it.” Hmm, did you ever read 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 where it describes the Thessalonians thinking that Jesus had already come and they had missed it? They didn’t think Christ would appear in the sky above them and everyone see him or the world was destroyed in fire and they some how survived it or time would come to an end and they were still around. Further proof that you are wrong is Paul’s answer to them. He didn’t correct them by saying no friends when Christ returns the world will be destroyed and you won’t be able to miss it. He didn’t correct their expectations about Christ’s return he merely corrected their timing to say it hadn’t happened yet and gave them a guidepost about the timing in the Man of Lawlessness (most likely Nero). So yet again the futurist claim is at odds with the Holy Scriptures.

So let me ask you Winman—do you think the bible is inerrant? And if you do what do you do with John 21: 20 – 23 when Jesus says John will live until he comes back? Do you think John is still alive today?

 

[J.D.]

Thank you RAdam and others for using Jesus' hermeneutic: "Search the scriptures...they are they which speak of me".

1948 was not the rebirth of ancient Israel, but he birth of modern Israel.

P.S.: They may build a temple, but God will not be in it.

 

[Winman]

Think about it Winman—if Jesus took away the sin of the World—what purpose could animal sacrifices serve. It’s just misguided people not understanding the bible. People setting themselves up in direct conflict with God’s divine plan and the work and words of Christ. Why support this misguided effort if you think the blood of Christ is what washes away our sin? Why join in a blasphemy against Christ?

I know Jesus took away the sins of the world, I know animal sacrifices are not needed, where in the world do you get an idea like that?

The Jews are the ones planning to rebuild the temple, the Jews are the ones planning to reinstitute the animal sacrifices.

Time will tell who is correct. I believe there will be a major conflict between Israel and the Muslim world very soon. Israel will take control of the Temple Mount. There will be a major peace treaty and at that time the Jews will rebuild the temple. They are already prepared, the only thing preventing them at this time from rebuilding the temple is that at the current time the Muslims have control of the Temple Mount. However, if there was to be a major war, Israel could easily capture it, and I believe they will.

I don't know if you have been paying attention to the news lately. There is great talk of Iran having nuclear abilities. Future war with Iran is not spoken of as "ever happening" but "when it will happen". Many other Muslim nations might join in league against Israel. This could turn into a global conflict.

A senior Iranian lawmaker says the new round of anti-Iran UN Security Council sanctions is an open declaration of war against Iran by the six major powers.

That quote is dated today, 7/11/10

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=134263&sectionid=351020104

All any of us can do is wait and see. We may not have to wait long.

 

[Logos1]

Greetings Winman,

Hope you enjoyed a fine Sunday.

First, upon rereading my previous post about the 70 weeks I think I should clarify one point a bit further. At the end of the 70 weeks, this period corresponds to the time Stephen was stoned and when the Christians felt the need to flee Jerusalem for their safety that is when they began taking the gospel to the gentiles.

To address your last post. Let’s say for the sake of argument that everything you suggested in it actually happens and I wouldn’t have any problem saying that all these secular scenarios could happen, but if they did they have absolutely nothing to do with any prophecy in the bible and any similarity would be purely coincidental.

I expect much conflict yet in the Middle East before peace finally comes to that region, but the point is all bible prophecy is fulfilled and what is happening now is not fulfillment of any bible prophecy.

Since the Jewish people’s covenant relationship ended in 70 A.D. with the destruction of the Temple and the end of the Old Covenant they no longer enjoy any special relationship with God. We are all equal now. The modern day state of Israel (and we should certainly back them as our ally) nor any of their temple building efforts has any connection to bible prophecy.

Oh by the way, did you have any answer to the question on John at the end of my last post?

Best regards,

Logos1

 

[Winman]

Logos1

Go to the thread asking about America in prophesy, I just wrote there what I believe may be a reference to America in prophesy. Then read Revelations chapter 12 for yourself and see what you think.

Now, I could be wrong, but I believe I could very well be right. This is what we see in the world right now. Many nations at this time are lining up either with Israel, or against it. It is happening.

Anyway, see what you think for yourself. I will read that verse in John and get back to you.

 

[Winman]

So let me ask you Winman—do you think the bible is inerrant? And if you do what do you do with John 21: 20 – 23 when Jesus says John will live until he comes back? Do you think John is still alive today?

You are not really paying attention here. It does not say John will be alive when Jesus returns, in fact it makes a point to mention that.

John 21: 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Do you see where I highlighted in red? This verse makes it very clear that that is not what Jesus was really saying. Yes, many people took it wrong and believed that (including you), but this verse is very clear in showing that is not what Jesus said.

 

[Logos1]

So Winman do you think the modern state of Israel is a continuation of the ancient Jewish state that was in a covenant relationship with God?

If the answer is yes that would mean the Jews still lived under the Old Covenant. We know that can't be true since the bible tells us of the end of the Old Covenant and the onset of the New Covenant.

If the answer is no then by definition you have already severed their covenant relationship to God and of course since they are not in a covenant relationship why would there need to for any further prophecy about them? What purpose could that serve?

Either way you are at a dead end. You have no place to go with this.

 

[Logos1]

Another slick attempt obfuscation

You are not really paying attention here. It does not say John will be alive when Jesus returns, in fact it makes a point to mention that.

John 21: 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Do you see where I highlighted in red? This verse makes it very clear that that is not what Jesus was really saying. Yes, many people took it wrong and believed that (including you), but this verse is very clear in showing that is not what Jesus said.

Winman do you really think you can slick that one past anybody?

Jesus was saying he wouldn't live for ever and never die then he turns around and says he will tarry (live) till his return.

So the question remains unanswered by you--which is it? Did Jesus return and and John tarry (live) till then and later die or is he still tarrying (living) until Jesus returns?

This is one of the fun parts of debating futurists--they paint themselves into a box on this one and look silly trying to obfuscate out of it!

 

[Winman]

I am not an expert on the covenants, so I really can't answer your question.

All I know is that there are many prophesies in the OT concerning the "end times", and they speak of the nation of Israel.

Now, you will probably say we are in the end times and have been for thousands of years, but I think these prophesies are speaking of the very end, the 7 year tribulation when Jesus will return and set foot on Mt. Olivet. There is no way that happened in 70 A.D..

Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Now, say what you will, this did not happen in 70 A.D.. The mount of Olives did not divide in two, and the Jews did not flee through the valley.

The enemies of Israel did not have their skin, eyes, and tongue dissolve away while they stood on their feet. This actually sounds exactly like atomic warefare and what happened at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And that may be how the enemies of Israel will be destroyed, with nuclear weapons.

So, no way in my opinion any of this happened in 70 A.D..

 

[RAdam]

For the "he" to refer to the "prince that shall come", the prince that shall come would have to be a personal noun used in the context. It is not. The personal nouns that are used are "Messiah" and "the people of the prince that shall come." One is singular, one is plural. Since the angel told Daniel "he" and not "they", he must be referring to Messiah. Messiah would confirm the covenant with many for one week. What covenant? The new covenant, of which He was the mediator. He confirmed it first by His personal public ministry for 3 and a half years until His ascension. He confirmed it by His apostles and preachers for the last 3 and a half years. After this period of time He gives up the Jewish nation unto judgement, which would fall on them in 70 AD.

Remember the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 23, "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation." Then you have His preaching in Matthew 22 in the parable of the marriage supper, "And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage." So you have Jesus before and after His death and ascension preaching to the Jews personally and through His servants, but was largely rejected. In consequence of this, He would destroy them and their city. He would send His servants to the Gentiles, and curiously they had much more success among them.

 

[Winman]

I agree with you completely that the marriage parable in Matthew 22 is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.. I believe that.

But there are many other prophesies that show Israel and Jerusalem in the last days, the example I just gave you in Zechariah is just one.

These events did not happen in 70 A.D.. The mount of Olives did not divide in two. The land did not turn into a great plain.

Men were not vaporized while they stood on their feet in 70 A.D..

We do not see all the nations of the earth coming to Jerusalem to worship and keep the feast of tabernacles.

And in Zechariah 14 is is plain that Jesus is coming to defend Jerusalem from these many nations that come against it, not destroy it.

You choose to ignore these many prophesies that show Israel and Jerusalem in the last days.

There is really no use in going on with this, I will never agree with your position because there are too many scriptures that in my mind prove to me you are in error.

 

[Logos1]

Zechariah 14 is completely fuliflled prophecy in every way

Hello Winman,

1. America is not mentioned in bible prophecy anywhere

2. I don't blame you for not wanting to answer the question on John--it is an impossible position for a futurist to reconcile.

3. I'll give you that Zechariah can be difficult to understand. When I was switching my position from futurist to full preterist I has some reservations because I didn't see how Zechariah was fulfilled. Now that I understand how it was fulfilled I see it as more resounding proof of the preterist position.

I did a post on Zechariah 14 and it was so long it took more than one post to do so I won't repeat all of it here. I'll give you the link.
In short--the Tenth Legion was Christ's foot stepping down on the Mount of Olives in judgment, it was split by virtue of their trenching activities and what you think are atomic weapons describes the Jews inside Jerusalem not those on the outside. The skin melting off their bones is a great description of the Jews inside starving during the siege of Jerusalem. This would also be the time as detailed by Josephus when the Deut. 28 prophecy was fulfilled when they cannibalized their young.

The link is here:

http://baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=65347&page=8&highlight=preterist

Zechariah 14 is a great prophecy and it was describing the 70 AD events in wonderful detail.

 

[Winman]

1. I believe the great eagle mentioned in Revelations 12 could possibly be a reference to America.

2. I absolutely answered your question in John and showed that you were in error. Go back and read post #68.

3. I am glad you agree that Zechariah 14 does not fit your system. The Lord is coming to defend Jerusalem against all these nations that come against it, not destroy it. Men will vaporize while they stand on their feet. Afterward all the nations will come up to Jerusalem and worship the Lord.

None of these things happened in 70 A.D. or at any time since then. They are future. But I have a feeling you will see this come to pass soon, the world is choosing sides right now for or against Israel. There is talk of war with Iran, and many nations are lining up behind Iran against Israel.

All I can say is watch and see. Time will tell.

 

[Logos1]

Winman why put words in my mouth and

Wineman, If I wasn't such a jolly elf I would say something like you must live in your own reality, but I'll resist the urge--besides I find your dodging and restating my position proof that you have run out of legitimate responses.

At least by normal and conventional uses of the term respond you haven't done so you just tried to obfuscate, restate, and turn it into a different question.

Saying I said Zechariah 14 didn't fit my position is a double dose of obfuscation. LOL, I just have to laugh. No one reading my post would come away with any opinion except that I firmly believe that Zechariah is resounding reinforcement of the preterist position.

Seems I don't get any legitimate effort by you to debate or discuss the subject just dodges, restating positions opposite from what actually say and such attempts at trickery.

When ever I debate futurist on their own site after two or three rounds they ban me, delete my posts, or delete part of it--since you can't control the board here might you be trying the same by the means available to you.

God bless you Winman. I enjoy debating you and I wouldn't let these boards, upset me and I hope you don't--I would do something else with my time if that were the case. I'm use to this kind of treatment from futurist. Why don't you try an honest answer to my positions with out all the trickery.

God Bless,

Logos1

 

[ashleysdad]

Winman do you really think you can slick that one past anybody?

Jesus was saying he wouldn't live for ever and never die then he turns around and says he will tarry (live) till his return.

So the question remains unanswered by you--which is it? Did Jesus return and and John tarry (live) till then and later die or is he still tarrying (living) until Jesus returns?

This is one of the fun parts of debating futurists--they paint themselves into a box on this one and look silly trying to obfuscate out of it!

Okay, I have to ask, how does this verse at all indicate what you are saying that it indicates. Jesus is basically telling Peter to worry about himself and Gods will for his life and not worry about John and what Gods will for Johns life was. The text could not be more plain. No where in it does Jesus ever say that John would live to see the second coming. Read vs 23 again. The key phrase is "if I will that he tarry till I come what is that to thee?" The thought that is expressed here is that Jesus is telling Peter "don't worry about John, worry about yourself". You cannot use this passage to justify a preterist viewpoint. To attempt to do so demonstrates poor reading comprehension skills. If you want to hold to the preterist view point that is fine, but don't mis-apply scripture to justify it. Jesus never said that John would be alive for the second coming. He simply told Peter to follow Him.

 

[ashleysdad]

Hello Winman,

1. America is not mentioned in bible prophecy anywhere

2. I don't blame you for not wanting to answer the question on John--it is an impossible position for a futurist to reconcile.

3. I'll give you that Zechariah can be difficult to understand. When I was switching my position from futurist to full preterist I has some reservations because I didn't see how Zechariah was fulfilled. Now that I understand how it was fulfilled I see it as more resounding proof of the preterist position.

I did a post on Zechariah 14 and it was so long it took more than one post to do so I won't repeat all of it here. I'll give you the link.
In short--the Tenth Legion was Christ's foot stepping down on the Mount of Olives in judgment, it was split by virtue of their trenching activities and what you think are atomic weapons describes the Jews inside Jerusalem not those on the outside. The skin melting off their bones is a great description of the Jews inside starving during the siege of Jerusalem. This would also be the time as detailed by Josephus when the Deut. 28 prophecy was fulfilled when they cannibalized their young.

The link is here:

http://baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=65347&page=8&highlight=preterist

Zechariah 14 is a great prophecy and it was describing the 70 AD events in wonderful detail.

So.. Christ returned to the earth and set foot on the Mt. of Olives in the form of the Roman 10th legion, how does this fufill what is written in Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." This verse says that when Christ returns to the earth every eye will see Him. Not some symbolic form of Him. This was NOT fufilled in the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. Every eye did not see Jesus because Jesus did not come back in 70 A.D. Also where was the great white horse and the armies of Heaven that are spoken of in Revelation 19. These events will be visual events that people will see, not speculate about.

 

[Logos1]

Greetings Ashleysdad,

It’s a pleasure to hear from you and a double pleasure that you actually debate in a legitimate manner and not twist around what another is saying to wiggle out of answering a question. I hope Winman is taking notes.

In the matter regarding John, you are right in the point he is telling Peter to follow him. If you can’t see the implied point that John will live till he comes back then look at a more direct to the point instance of this by looking at the verse you quoted in your second post Rev 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, AND THEY ALSO WHO PIERCED HIM…

So the dilemma remains the same for a futurist—did those who pierced him live till his return in 70 AD and die afterwards or do you think they are still alive today?

Now let’s deal with the second post and Rev 1:7 in regards to eyes, clouds, etc.

God or in this case Christ to be specific presence is understood to be present in the term clouds as he came in judgment against Jerusalem. As they say let the bible interpret the bible. I would never suggest that anyone merely accept my opinion on a matter—look to a higher source and see what the inspired scripture says on the matter.

Clouds are often used as term to denote the presence of God in the Old Testament. You will often find if you divorce New Testament scripture from its Jewish roots (keep in mind that the Jewish authors are largely writing to a Jewish audience) and treat verses like they are Greek or Western literature and try to stand them on their own with no Old Testament connection you get an entirely different meaning that steers you in the wrong direction. A great example is Isaiah 19:1
An oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt;
and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,
and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

This refers to the Babylonians coming to lay waste Egypt as a result of their idol worship. No one actually saw God riding on a cloud. It was understood that you could see the presence of the Lord guiding human events as he used the Babylonians to punish Egypt. He came in judgment against Egypt in this instance. Everyone could see God here too. The term see doesn’t just mean see with the eye in the bible it also means see or comprehend with the mind.

There are many instances of God’s presence being found in the clouds in the Old Testament, but you never actually saw God you understood that clouds represented his presence.

Also look at Matthew ch 26 when the high priest asked Jesus if he was the Messiah Jesus replied in v. 64 You have said it…in the future you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power coming on the clouds of heaven. V. 65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, He has blasphemed!

The priests understood this direct reference to being God as a result of his presence coming on the clouds.

Jesus was speaking to them in the Old Testament language they understood. He didn’t tell them there was a new way to interpret God’s presence being found in the clouds nor changed the long understood reference to God’s presence. If Jesus wanted to change the meaning of this reference he would have told us the new way to interpret it.

So based on established biblical meanings we can only stick to the established interpretation in Rev 1:7. Every eye will see him—everyone will understand that the Roman army laying waste to Jerusalem implies God is using the Roman army to come in judgment against Jerusalem just as he said he would. Coming on the clouds—just as always before you don’t see Jesus standing on a cloud, but realize his presence is found in the events unfolding here at Jerusalem.

As far as the white horse goes—riding a white horse was something that victors of battles did in their victory parades at the time. It is symbolic of Christ’s victory. Think about it—why would the creator of the universe need a horse to ride around the sky on. What does a horse offer him he doesn’t already have? Its just common imagery for victory. It drives home the point of Christ’s victory.

The heavenly armies—even though you might get someone to make a legitimate argument that this represents the visions of armies seen in the skies around Jerusalem as 70 AD approached and other events which are recorded in the Talmond such as a temple door opening every night and an oil based candle being extinguished along with some other interesting events I think the answer can be found in the bible.

Rev 19: 14 The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses…
We are already in the realm of the symbolic since we are putting Christ on a white horse in this passage and I think the symbolism continues here. This passage seems to echo the often used Jewish phraseology found in the Old Testament denoting the presence of God. It is very similar to other New Testament verses like 1 Thes 3:13 where it says at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. These seems to be a direct reference back to the Old Testament verses like Deut 33:2 …he came from the ten thousands of holy ones with flaming fire…this refers to God leading the Hebrews from slavery to the promised land, but no one actually saw God and his holy ones it is a Jewish phrase which denotes God’s presence being found in the events. Also like Psalm 68:17…the chariots of God are twice ten thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them…again no one saw God’s chariots this denotes his presence.

Well I’ve gone way beyond brevity, but I wanted to give you honest, meat and potatoes answers to your questions and not merely brush them off (as I’m not mentioning his name here) has done too often.

I encourage you too keep coming up with such probing questions Ashleysdad. I was an ardent futurist myself most of my life and Preterism seemed as foolish to me as it does to you now, but in the end I just wanted to find the truth where ever it took me. I’m sure no one could have persuaded me to become a full Preterist, but as I searched and probed for answers I found the futurist position contradicting and unable to provide satisfying answers. I found full Preterism to bring bible prophecy into harmony with the rest of the bible and actual historical events. I was my own worst critic of Preterism till its logic and I guess the Holy Spirit convicted me of its rightness in understanding the bible.

Regards,

Logos1

 

[RAdam]

This thread provides great evidence for why both the preterist and futurist positions are wrong. The preterist takes prophecy that is clearly not yet fulfilled and tries to make it fit history, and is not unlike a person jamming pieces of a jigsaw puzzle where they clearly don't fit yet tries to convince everyone that's exactly where it goes. The futurist takes prophecy that is clearly completely fulfilled and moves it to the future even though we can look back at clear historical events that fulfill it beyond all doubt, like Daniel 9, the first portion of the Olivet Discourse, etc. Both positions are extremes and don't work.

The truth is Zechariah 14 doesn't look like it has happened yet, although I'm not as studied on that text as I am on others. Clearly the Olivet Discourse deals with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and with the Second Coming of Christ and end of the world. Clearly Daniel 9 is fulfilled in total, but Daniel has other prophecies that aren't fulfilled yet. To try to make all prophecy fit in either a future box or a past box is wrong.