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Featured Propitiation do you know what it means?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Revmitchell, Feb 15, 2022.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    You still don't get it
     
    #141 SavedByGrace, Feb 16, 2022
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do get it. I once believed as you believe. But God convicted me that I needed to remain in His Word.

    What you seem not to get is that you are actively adding to Scripture what you feel it teaches (or should teach).

    That is not right.
     
    #142 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I think you are misunderstanding the use of the word theory. I will say I cannot account for how others on this board are using it but it seems that you believe the use of theory implies that there can be some question or doubt as to whether something is true. That is not how that word is always used.


    Definition of theory


    1: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomenathe wave theory of light
    2a: a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of actionher method is based on the theory that all children want to learn
    b: an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theoryin theory, we have always advocated freedom for all
    3a: a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation
    b: an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE
    c: a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subjecttheory of equations
    4: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an artmusic theory
    5: abstract thought : SPECULATION
    6: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
     
    #143 Revmitchell, Feb 16, 2022
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is the law of gravity. There are theories of gravity. The theory of relatively is not yet deemed to be a law.
     
    #144 37818, Feb 16, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2022
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Penal Substitution Theory is unproven conjecture (the standard of proof being God's Word).

    This is clear given @SavedByGrace 's failure to find even one verse that states what makes the theory unique (Christ experiencing God's wrath so we would not).

    Watch. He will rate this "funny" or "praying".....but what he will not do is actually prove me wrong because he can't.
     
    #145 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The JW says he does see the word trinity in the bible. That is the same reasoning Jonc is using in these threads.
    Jonc....where is the words Christus Victor found in scripture?
    You think it is there? Where?
     
    #146 Iconoclast, Feb 16, 2022
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You cannot "see" what is there.
    No one was born again in Acts, because those exact words are not found in Acts.
     
    #147 Iconoclast, Feb 16, 2022
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is not true.....the issue is you know of your post is false because we have had this discussion.

    If you cannot find a verse stating that the Father is God, another that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God or God's Spirit, and yet another that says Jesus is God and a verse stating that God is One then please pm me and I will help.

    The Doctrine of the Trinity is in what is written.

    Penal Substitution Theory is not.

    The reason yours is a strawman argument is that I am not asking for all of Penal Substitution Theory in one place.

    Provide a verse that says Jesus experienced God's wrath. Find another stating Jesus' death appeased God. Find a third stating that Jesus died so that we would not.

    You can't because they do not exist.
     
    #148 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It does not say trinity.
    If you are not able to find it in scripture[which is our standard].
    You are not believing in the sufficiency of scripture. You are adding mans teaching as you just told everyone.
    Same exact thing.
     
    #149 Iconoclast, Feb 16, 2022
  10. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    It is not a strange thing to have a series of scriptures and put them together and give a name to the theme of the scriptures. And you know it. Those verses in Isaiah 53 for example describe something going on. We have decided to call it penal substitution for the past 500 years. It was true before that. And it is true no matter what name we give it and it was true before it had a name. You are simply raising an absurd argument that scripture has to say the words of what we call the doctrine or else it is invalid. I am complaining about this: You owe the rest of us enough respect to refute the scriptures we site rather than side stepping the issue by bringing up the idea over and over that the name of the doctrine is not actually part of the text. That is not an argument.
     
    #150 DaveXR650, Feb 16, 2022
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Now rather os silly and you are better than this.

    I never asked for a verse stating the title of the Theory.

    Look through Scripture and find a verse simply stating Christ experienced God's wrath. Find snother saying Christ's death appeased God. Find another stating Christ died so we would not.

    You can't because they do not exist.

    I know you are heavily invested in Calvinism (which depends on Penal Substitution Theory). I do not expect you to turn to Scripture at this stage. BUT God may use this forum to turn people towards a more biblical view and reject the Theory for Scripture.
     
    #151 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is a problem with the use of words. Isaiah 53:6, ". . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ." Meaning what? Gibberish?
     
    #152 37818, Feb 16, 2022
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    None of the passages that have been resented teach that Christ experienced God's wrath, died instead of us dying, or even that Christ's death appeased God.

    What am I supposed to do? You guys give a passage and then a vo.etely unrelated conclusion.

    You say Isaiah 53 proves Christ suffered God's wrath instead of us suffering it.....but it doesn't!

    We can't discuss the passage because you guys keep adding to the passage what is not there and pretend to see it.

    Try this....HIGHLIGHT it in your Bible before posting.
     
    #153 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    then WHAT does this mean?

    Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted...Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand verses 4, 10

    which words do you not understand?
     
    #154 SavedByGrace, Feb 16, 2022
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You believe the trinity theory is taught...but cannot find one verse that says trinity.
    Same thing
     
    #155 Iconoclast, Feb 16, 2022
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  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    He will repeat the verses one by one, but ignore why they are written.
    He has done this in the last several threads.
     
    #156 Iconoclast, Feb 16, 2022
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  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Where did Gods wrath against believers sins go?
    Was it swept under the rug?
    Does God even punish sin?
     
    #157 Iconoclast, Feb 16, 2022
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is stupid.

    I am not looking for a verse that says "Penal Substitution Theory".

    I believe the doctrine of the Trinity because I can find a passage stating the Father is God, another that the Spirit is God's Spirit, and yet another that Jesus is Lord.

    Do the same with Penal Substitution Theory.

    Show me a passage stating that Jesus experienced God's wrath. Show me another that says Jesus died instead of us dying and yer another that says Christ's death appeased God.

    IF Penal Substitution Theory is biblical then you could. But you can't. It's just reformed Roman Catholic doctrine.
     
    #158 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You have a lot of questions. Why not just rely on Scripture?

    God forgave sinners. God does punish the unrighteous. There is no condemnation in Christ.

    You are approaching the Bibe as a Pharisee.
     
    #159 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    On what basis did God forgive guilty sinners?
     
    #160 Iconoclast, Feb 16, 2022
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