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Proposal of a New Theological Degree
- Thread starter Rhetorician
- Start date
The three year M.Div. is followed by a three year pure research Ph.D. in England and Scotland.
I think that a three year M.A/Ph.D. program should be offered by most seminaries for those who want to teach and a three year M.Div. should be offered to those who want pastoral ministry.
I looked at my M.Div. curriculum recently and realized how impractical all of my "practical" courses were. But I'm still using my "academic theology" courses!
Perhaps a M.A./Ph.D. program would take four years because of the dissertation, but I still think seminaries are cheating the guy who wants to teach, especially if he has a B.A. in Bible/languages!
I think that a three year M.A/Ph.D. program should be offered by most seminaries for those who want to teach and a three year M.Div. should be offered to those who want pastoral ministry.
I looked at my M.Div. curriculum recently and realized how impractical all of my "practical" courses were. But I'm still using my "academic theology" courses!
Perhaps a M.A./Ph.D. program would take four years because of the dissertation, but I still think seminaries are cheating the guy who wants to teach, especially if he has a B.A. in Bible/languages!
I also agree with the idea that a four year B.A. in Bible/languages should be followed up with a one year M.Div.
We are really penalizing the B.A. in Bible.
The truth is, the M.Div. is really the descendent of the three year Bible institute diploma.
Having just completed my dissertation for the D.Min., if it gets me a new church with a $25,000 raise, then I'm all for it!!!
The fact is, the D.Min at G-C is a real doctorate and I am humbled by the experience.
We are really penalizing the B.A. in Bible.
The truth is, the M.Div. is really the descendent of the three year Bible institute diploma.
Having just completed my dissertation for the D.Min., if it gets me a new church with a $25,000 raise, then I'm all for it!!!
The fact is, the D.Min at G-C is a real doctorate and I am humbled by the experience.
Paul33,
I know how you feel about your DMin. Mine was based on two masters and 39 PhD hrs from a secular university. It ended up being 54 hrs total.
I am sure you know all I am about to recount!
As to the MDiv/PhD vs the MA/PhD, the MA is considered a university degree. So the PhD is based upon it. The MDiv is considered a seminary degree of the PhD/ThD is based on it, and it assumes the Biblical Languages. It has only been in the last few years that seminaries have changed the shorter masters degrees to make them "MAs" to line up with what the universities are doing.
There are very few religious insitituions who allow a PhD/MA combination. Wheaton is one of the few. Maybe some others can give us some insight here.
What has been happening in my circle, SBC, men have been getting the MDiv and then going to a secular u. and then getting the PhD in some cognate. This helps the seminary where they end up teaching with the accrediting agencies.
For what it is worth!
rd
I know how you feel about your DMin. Mine was based on two masters and 39 PhD hrs from a secular university. It ended up being 54 hrs total.
I am sure you know all I am about to recount!
As to the MDiv/PhD vs the MA/PhD, the MA is considered a university degree. So the PhD is based upon it. The MDiv is considered a seminary degree of the PhD/ThD is based on it, and it assumes the Biblical Languages. It has only been in the last few years that seminaries have changed the shorter masters degrees to make them "MAs" to line up with what the universities are doing.
There are very few religious insitituions who allow a PhD/MA combination. Wheaton is one of the few. Maybe some others can give us some insight here.
What has been happening in my circle, SBC, men have been getting the MDiv and then going to a secular u. and then getting the PhD in some cognate. This helps the seminary where they end up teaching with the accrediting agencies.
For what it is worth!
rd
UZ,
Glad to see you back, I for one have missed you!
You said and I quote:
"Hi Rhet
Would one problem be that doctoral programs should be taught at doc levels and not at MDiv levels?"
The short and simple answer would be "yes." It is a problem at the seminary b/c the MDiv is "graduate professional" level. And the PhD (and ThD for you) has a focus on research as you and I both know well.
BUT; (and it's a big BUT) @ the university, the MA and PhD are both research oriented. As a "special student" while applying for the PhD and taking MA courses, I sat in classes w/MA & PhD students. We all did the same level of work; reading assignments, research, as well as papers etc.
When I matriculated for the PhD, there was still no difference. "Special Students" (read non degree), MA students, and PhD students all did the same work side-by-side. The course #s were different and show differently on my transcript, but the course content was the same. The profs also expected as much from the MA & "special students" as they did the PhD students.
FYI from my limited experience.
I hope this helps.
sdg!
rd
Glad to see you back, I for one have missed you!
You said and I quote:
"Hi Rhet
Would one problem be that doctoral programs should be taught at doc levels and not at MDiv levels?"
The short and simple answer would be "yes." It is a problem at the seminary b/c the MDiv is "graduate professional" level. And the PhD (and ThD for you) has a focus on research as you and I both know well.
BUT; (and it's a big BUT) @ the university, the MA and PhD are both research oriented. As a "special student" while applying for the PhD and taking MA courses, I sat in classes w/MA & PhD students. We all did the same level of work; reading assignments, research, as well as papers etc.
When I matriculated for the PhD, there was still no difference. "Special Students" (read non degree), MA students, and PhD students all did the same work side-by-side. The course #s were different and show differently on my transcript, but the course content was the same. The profs also expected as much from the MA & "special students" as they did the PhD students.
FYI from my limited experience.
I hope this helps.
sdg!
rd
Okay. Today we have
128-134 undergrad credits for a BA/BS
4 years full time
32-42 grad credits for a MA/MS
1.5 to 2 years full time
64 grad credits for a PhD including research and thesis
2-3 years, mostly full time
Modern Seminary education is SKEWED! When I started, you were to have an earned BA/BS and then after 96 grad credits, got a BD (Bachelor of Divinity). This was changed to MDiv (Master of Divinity) to show it WAS grad work.
Then 32 MORE credits for a ThM
Then 32 MORE credits for a ThD
That is disproportionately out of line and SHOULD be rethought.
I like having a program parallel to the PhD or MD in credits and years AND becoming a "doctor".
128-134 undergrad credits for a BA/BS
4 years full time
32-42 grad credits for a MA/MS
1.5 to 2 years full time
64 grad credits for a PhD including research and thesis
2-3 years, mostly full time
Modern Seminary education is SKEWED! When I started, you were to have an earned BA/BS and then after 96 grad credits, got a BD (Bachelor of Divinity). This was changed to MDiv (Master of Divinity) to show it WAS grad work.
Then 32 MORE credits for a ThM
Then 32 MORE credits for a ThD
That is disproportionately out of line and SHOULD be rethought.
I like having a program parallel to the PhD or MD in credits and years AND becoming a "doctor".
Another thought with the 4-year doctoral program instead of 8 years for MDiv, ThM, ThD - there should be a REAL
(1) Core requirement taken in the undergrad - level such as English, History, lots of Humanities, Latin, Greek
(2) Qualifying exam or not allowed to enter grad work
(3) Core curriculum
18 cr Theology Proper
18 cr Practical/Pastoral Theology
18 cr Languages
12 cr Church History
12 cr Denominational Studies
(4) Comprehensive exam following
(5) Research
8 credits on a "project" that would relate to the core program
(6) Dissertation
16 credits for a publishable contribution
(This is 100-102 grad credits for the degree which may be high)
(7) Final Oral defense AND overall competency
(8) Residency - I would LOVE to add a "residency" requirement for a year before letting someone take the degree and hang out a shingle . .
(1) Core requirement taken in the undergrad - level such as English, History, lots of Humanities, Latin, Greek
(2) Qualifying exam or not allowed to enter grad work
(3) Core curriculum
18 cr Theology Proper
18 cr Practical/Pastoral Theology
18 cr Languages
12 cr Church History
12 cr Denominational Studies
(4) Comprehensive exam following
(5) Research
8 credits on a "project" that would relate to the core program
(6) Dissertation
16 credits for a publishable contribution
(This is 100-102 grad credits for the degree which may be high)
(7) Final Oral defense AND overall competency
(8) Residency - I would LOVE to add a "residency" requirement for a year before letting someone take the degree and hang out a shingle . .
We are in agreement, Dr. Bob!
Bob Jones University has offered the M.A./Ph.D. route for many years now. As a university, I understand why. They have since started a seminary where one can earn an M.Div. in three years.
Are the seminaries listening? Come on TEDS, SBS, DTS, let's get with the program!
Bob Jones University has offered the M.A./Ph.D. route for many years now. As a university, I understand why. They have since started a seminary where one can earn an M.Div. in three years.
Are the seminaries listening? Come on TEDS, SBS, DTS, let's get with the program!
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Are you suggesting that the only people who know what phylacteries are are those who have formal education and don't say "haint" and "your'n"? If not, then I fail to see what your point is, in light of the discussions of the past several days.
Again, no one has decried knowledge. What we have decried is the ridiculously absurd notion that the institutions of higher education have a monopoly on knowledge.
Mark Osgatharp
Paul33,
When one looks at the difference in the univ. MA compared to the seminary MDiv they are (or were)truly "apples and oranges."
The MA has traditionally been a university degree moving towards their PhD in research.
The MDiv, however, has been a graduate/professional degree that assumed: the incoming student DID NOT have an undergrad degree in religion or Bible, and that the same student was going into the pastoral/ministerial vocation.
The MDiv used to be the general degree upon which the ThM led to the ThD for research at the seminary. In this sense, the ThM was equal to the university MA; as an entrance degree into their own respective doctorate. But, the ThM had to be built on the MDiv b/c of the need to do research in the BLs that were taken in the MDiv work. It seems to be a "Catch 22" all around.
Things have b/c somewhat confused it appears. The seminaries are now calling any specialized degree less than 90 sem hrs a "master of arts" in XXXXX.
Then the seminaries have changed the nomenclature of the ThD to that of the PhD to fall in line with the universities. It seems that the seminaries want to have the same standing in the academic world as the contemporary universities.
Go figure! We don't generally do minister training "in house" in the churches anymore. Then, we want the secular accrediting agencies to "sanction" what we do in the seminaries. Then, if that is not enough; we want to call our theological degree a philosophical degree.
One brother on another thread said, "Around and around it goes, and where it stops nobody knows!"
sdg!
rd
When one looks at the difference in the univ. MA compared to the seminary MDiv they are (or were)truly "apples and oranges."
The MA has traditionally been a university degree moving towards their PhD in research.
The MDiv, however, has been a graduate/professional degree that assumed: the incoming student DID NOT have an undergrad degree in religion or Bible, and that the same student was going into the pastoral/ministerial vocation.
The MDiv used to be the general degree upon which the ThM led to the ThD for research at the seminary. In this sense, the ThM was equal to the university MA; as an entrance degree into their own respective doctorate. But, the ThM had to be built on the MDiv b/c of the need to do research in the BLs that were taken in the MDiv work. It seems to be a "Catch 22" all around.
Things have b/c somewhat confused it appears. The seminaries are now calling any specialized degree less than 90 sem hrs a "master of arts" in XXXXX.
Then the seminaries have changed the nomenclature of the ThD to that of the PhD to fall in line with the universities. It seems that the seminaries want to have the same standing in the academic world as the contemporary universities.
Go figure! We don't generally do minister training "in house" in the churches anymore. Then, we want the secular accrediting agencies to "sanction" what we do in the seminaries. Then, if that is not enough; we want to call our theological degree a philosophical degree.
One brother on another thread said, "Around and around it goes, and where it stops nobody knows!"
sdg!
rd
Dr. Bob,
You said in your post above and I quote:
"I like having a program parallel to the PhD or MD in credits and years AND becoming a 'doctor'."
That is what I am lobbying to have. I fully agree. A full 4 years of masters and doctoral degree combined and call it some type of "professional doctorate." To me, that makes much more sense than the 96 hr MDiv.
sdg!
rd
You said in your post above and I quote:
"I like having a program parallel to the PhD or MD in credits and years AND becoming a 'doctor'."
That is what I am lobbying to have. I fully agree. A full 4 years of masters and doctoral degree combined and call it some type of "professional doctorate." To me, that makes much more sense than the 96 hr MDiv.
sdg!
rd
It's too bad the D.Div. is normally understood to be an honoary degree, because a four year seminary degree leading to the Doctor of Divinity would be a great idea.
Rhet, I understand the professional nature of the M.Div. degree without needing a B.A. in Bible/Theology. I do think that historically the M.Div. may be the descendent of the three year bible institute degree or at best, the four year Bible college degree.
Think this through.
B.A. in English = 4 years
M.A. in English = 1 year
Ph.D. in English = 2 years
M.Div. in theology = three years
Th.M. in theology = one year
Th.D./Ph.D. in theology = two years
or
M.Div. in theology = three years
Ph.D. in theology = three years
It seems that the M.Div. is functioning as a B.A. for doctoral purposes. If so, is this because it has its roots in the undergraduate schools?
I believe that a seven year combination of bachelors, masters, and doctoral studies in Bible/theology should lead to a Ph.D.
Well that's my rant anyway!
Rhet, I understand the professional nature of the M.Div. degree without needing a B.A. in Bible/Theology. I do think that historically the M.Div. may be the descendent of the three year bible institute degree or at best, the four year Bible college degree.
Think this through.
B.A. in English = 4 years
M.A. in English = 1 year
Ph.D. in English = 2 years
M.Div. in theology = three years
Th.M. in theology = one year
Th.D./Ph.D. in theology = two years
or
M.Div. in theology = three years
Ph.D. in theology = three years
It seems that the M.Div. is functioning as a B.A. for doctoral purposes. If so, is this because it has its roots in the undergraduate schools?
I believe that a seven year combination of bachelors, masters, and doctoral studies in Bible/theology should lead to a Ph.D.
Well that's my rant anyway!
4 years = B.A. in English
1 year = M.A. in English
2 years = Ph.D. in English
________
7 years
3 years = M.Div. in theology
1 year = Th.M. in theology
2 years = Th.D./Ph.D. in theology
_______
6 years
You forgot a year or two:
4 years = B.A.
[3 years = M.Div. at a seminary
4 years = M.Div. if doing M.A. level work.
1 year = Th.M. in theology
4 years = Th.D./Ph.D. in theology
________
13 years
And the PhD in English above should probably be:
8 or 9 years . . .
1 year = M.A. in English
2 years = Ph.D. in English
________
7 years
3 years = M.Div. in theology
1 year = Th.M. in theology
2 years = Th.D./Ph.D. in theology
_______
6 years
You forgot a year or two:
4 years = B.A.
[3 years = M.Div. at a seminary
4 years = M.Div. if doing M.A. level work.
1 year = Th.M. in theology
4 years = Th.D./Ph.D. in theology
________
13 years
And the PhD in English above should probably be:
8 or 9 years . . .
I don't know too many that have done their class work in 2 years.
I do know one professor that did 3 MA's in ONE SUMMER. He did already have one MA. And he got permission to use transfer credit (they were in one of those consortiums) in the other MA's. They all did allow him to do reduced course work.
But, he did 48 graduate hours in one summer (If I remember correctly - he took 16 hours at each school).
He was smarter than I am . . . by just a little bit. But, mostly - HE DID NOT SLEEP. He got four hours sleep a night.
But, I do not think that the rest of us should go crazy trying to complete our degrees.
I do know one professor that did 3 MA's in ONE SUMMER. He did already have one MA. And he got permission to use transfer credit (they were in one of those consortiums) in the other MA's. They all did allow him to do reduced course work.
But, he did 48 graduate hours in one summer (If I remember correctly - he took 16 hours at each school).
He was smarter than I am . . . by just a little bit. But, mostly - HE DID NOT SLEEP. He got four hours sleep a night.
But, I do not think that the rest of us should go crazy trying to complete our degrees.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
So what are we going to do with the fact that Jesus said not to be called "master"?
Mark Osgatharp
Mark Osgatharp
I was using the BJU model.
MA/Ph.D. takes three years.
Well, as you have articulated, probably four years.
My main point is that the poor sap who earned a B.A. in Bible/theology is getting cheated by the seminaries who then want him to get a three year M.Div. before he can start on their four year Ph.D.
MA/Ph.D. takes three years.
Well, as you have articulated, probably four years.
My main point is that the poor sap who earned a B.A. in Bible/theology is getting cheated by the seminaries who then want him to get a three year M.Div. before he can start on their four year Ph.D.
Paul33,
That is a "yes" and "no" that the BA in Bible/Theology is being cheated.
It is true he does have to do some work in those areas; BUT, and it is a big but: Most of the times the person will get to do advanced work in those areas or intensives.
Let's say the MDiv demanded 8 sem hrs of NT Survey but the Bible college student had NT survey. He would be allowed to take 8 sem hrs in NT Intensives or Electives instead of those NT Survey hrs.
There is a trade off. It is a misnomer to think that the MDiv or BA student is cheated and has to redo the work. Even if the work has to be redone, it is on the graduate level.
sdg!
rd
That is a "yes" and "no" that the BA in Bible/Theology is being cheated.
It is true he does have to do some work in those areas; BUT, and it is a big but: Most of the times the person will get to do advanced work in those areas or intensives.
Let's say the MDiv demanded 8 sem hrs of NT Survey but the Bible college student had NT survey. He would be allowed to take 8 sem hrs in NT Intensives or Electives instead of those NT Survey hrs.
There is a trade off. It is a misnomer to think that the MDiv or BA student is cheated and has to redo the work. Even if the work has to be redone, it is on the graduate level.
sdg!
rd