Protestant Purgatory?

[DHK]

You never did explain how God chastises you for sins that He doesn't see.

He doesn't. God is not a Roman Catholic. Are you?
We shall all give account of ourselves before the judgement seat of Christ.

 

[Lacy Evans]

What is an RA and GA?

http://www.royalambassadors.org/site/c.9oIDLOOyGrF/b.315401/k.76A2/Who_Are_Royal_Ambassadors.htm

http://www.gapassport.com/gallery/

 

[Lacy Evans]

He doesn't. God is not a Roman Catholic. Are you?
We shall all give account of ourselves before the judgement seat of Christ.

Do you get a satisfying tickly feeling when you sidestep the point?

Lacy

 

[DHK]

Do you get a satisfying tickly feeling when you sidestep the point?

Lacy

I have not side-stepped anything. Where in the Bible does it teach that God will chastise us for every unconfessed sin? Your doctrine is straight from the Hellish doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and has nothing to do with the Bible whatsoever.
DHK

 

[James_Newman]

I have not side-stepped anything. Where in the Bible does it teach that God will chastise us for every unconfessed sin? Your doctrine is straight from the Hellish doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and has nothing to do with the Bible whatsoever.
DHK

Well at least it tries to be consistent. Maybe I should rephrase the question.

If God doesn't see your sins, for what reason does He chastise you, seeing as you have no sins that God can see?

 

[DHK]

Well at least it tries to be consistent. Maybe I should rephrase the question.

If God doesn't see your sins, for what reason does He chastise you, seeing as you have no sins that God can see?

I have answered this question before--in fact on numerous occasions. "Are ye yet without understanding?
All my sins: past, present, and future, are under the blood, never to be remembered again. God will never bring them up again--even the future ones. They were all forgiven, every one of them, even the future ones that I haven't committed yet. All of that is in respect to salvation and my standing before God as a Christian. Therefore, there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

However, as a believer in Christ, there is a matter of fellowship that does not affect my salvation one iota. It affects my walk with God, not my salvation. It is not God's will that I sin (IJohn 2:1). But I am human, and I will sin. Whether I confess that sin or not is irrelevant concerning my salvation. It is God's will that I confess my sin (1John 1:9), to resore me to fellowship with God--not to salvation which I can never lose, neither to avoid chastisement which is according to his will.
There is no teaching in the Bible that requires God to chastise us for each and every sin that we commit. That is RCC doctrine. If the sin goes unconfessed, so what! I am still saved. I will still go to heaven. I will give account of it in the day of judgement (for believers). There is no ME. That is a heretical false teaching based on Catholic doctrine.
DHK

 

[Lacy Evans]

There are not two aspects to salvation; there is only one.

Salvation may be used in more than one context.

So when we say the same thing it's only right when you say it and only wrong when I say it? Que Paso?

The filthy rags, at the point of salvation, are put under the blood. Our sins, at the point of salvation are forgiven once and for all, never to remembered again.
As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed them from us.
He has cast them behind his back to remeber them no more.
He has buried them in the depths of the deepest see.
Thereforre, there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--none.

You type and type to prove to me something I already believe and have repeatedly stated?

No one is justified in a secondary sense. That is not what the Bible says.
It says:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
IT does not say:
Being justified in a secondary sense by faith we have peace with God.
You are adding to the Scripture and creating heresy.

I aint added nuthin.

James 2
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I just don't use one to cancel out the other.

Then you say:
We are truly justified...by yielding to the Spirit and doing...

See above scripture.

Here is cultish Catholicism at its best.

Here is a debater with no argument resorting to rhetoric. What a novel concept.

You just said that we are saved by works, by doing

.
I just quoted James.

Do you go to confess your sins to the priest as well?

Absolutely
Hebrews 4:14-16
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

How many works do you have to do before you get saved?

In what sense? If you are talking about Acts 27:31, only one. I just stay on the boat!

How many works have to outweigh the bad works you do before you get saved?
You really believe that you are "saved by doing" as you just wrote??

SAVED FROM CHASTENING!!! In this life and at the JSOC. Did anyone bother to read DeHaan?

That is heresy--it is what every cult believes in; what every major world religion believes in. Christianity alone believes in--saved by grace through faith alone.
But you don't believe that.

You're a big old liar! Shame on you!

I am as holy as God is.

Oh my bad, I didn't know. Please forgive me, my lord, for calling you a liar? Oh wait, I'm a Christian so I don't need forgiveness, because I am already as holy as God!

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

However my holiness was given to me when I was saved. God no longer sees DHK and his sin.

For what part of God's holiness does he chastens you when you sin?

He looks down upon me and sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I am clothed in His righteousness. All my sins are under the blood. He will never look upon them again. In my standing before God, I am as holy as he is.

For what part of Christ's blood does he chastens you when you sin?

However as long as you believe that your salvation must be attained by works you can never attain that standing.

Are you mis-stating my position me because you are dull or because you so desparately want to win an argument?

Without holiness no man can see God.
Are you as holy as God?
DHK

"Am I as holy as you and God?" you mean.

 

[Lacy Evans]

All my sins: past, present, and future, are under the blood, never to be remembered again. God will never bring them up again--even the future ones. They were all forgiven, every one of them, even the future ones that I haven't committed yet. All of that is in respect to salvation and my standing before God as a Christian. Therefore, there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

However, as a believer in Christ, there is a matter of fellowship that does not affect my salvation one iota. It affects my walk with God, not my salvation. It is not God's will that I sin (IJohn 2:1). But I am human, and I will sin. Whether I confess that sin or not is irrelevant concerning my salvation. It is God's will that I confess my sin (1John 1:9), to resore me to fellowship with God--not to salvation which I can never lose, neither to avoid chastisement which is according to his will.
There is no teaching in the Bible that requires God to chastise us for each and every sin that we commit. That is RCC doctrine. If the sin goes unconfessed, so what! I am still saved. I will still go to heaven. I will give account of it in the day of judgement (for believers). DHK

This is exactly my position and exactly what I (and James, And JJump and HoG, etc.) have been saying all along! Again I ask, "Que Paso?"

There is no ME. That is a heretical false teaching based on Catholic doctrine.

So you jump from perfectly stating my position to concluding that my views on ME are wrong. The doctrine Eternal Security is the absolute foundation of Millennial Exclusion. If we could stop repeating what we agree upon, then perhaps we could establish and debate what we don't agree upon.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

I have not side-stepped anything. Where in the Bible does it teach that God will chastise us for every unconfessed sin? Your doctrine is straight from the Hellish doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and has nothing to do with the Bible whatsoever.
DHK

I can get you pretty close.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.


1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Scary huh?

 

[James_Newman]

I have answered this question before--in fact on numerous occasions. "Are ye yet without understanding?
All my sins: past, present, and future, are under the blood, never to be remembered again. God will never bring them up again--even the future ones. They were all forgiven, every one of them, even the future ones that I haven't committed yet. All of that is in respect to salvation and my standing before God as a Christian. Therefore, there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

However, as a believer in Christ, there is a matter of fellowship that does not affect my salvation one iota. It affects my walk with God, not my salvation. It is not God's will that I sin (IJohn 2:1). But I am human, and I will sin. Whether I confess that sin or not is irrelevant concerning my salvation. It is God's will that I confess my sin (1John 1:9), to resore me to fellowship with God--not to salvation which I can never lose, neither to avoid chastisement which is according to his will.
There is no teaching in the Bible that requires God to chastise us for each and every sin that we commit. That is RCC doctrine. If the sin goes unconfessed, so what! I am still saved. I will still go to heaven. I will give account of it in the day of judgement (for believers). There is no ME. That is a heretical false teaching based on Catholic doctrine.
DHK

There is a teaching in the bible that says what a man sows, he will also reap. Can a man take fire into his bosom and his clothes not be burned? If God can see your sins to chastise you in this life, He can see them in the next. How else do you suppose you will be required to give account at the judgment?

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

What terror is there in knowing that God can't see your sins and you will never be chastened at the judgment? Oh, none. Paul must be smoking something, huh?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The true child of God will not experience 'the terror of the Lord'.

It is the unbeliever who will experience the terror of the Lord.

The believer, knowing the terror of the Lord that is in store for the unbeliever, should persuade men to turn from their wickedness and toward God.

 

[DHK]

So when we say the same thing it's only right when you say it and only wrong when I say it? Que Paso?

We do not say the same thing. There is only one salvation--salvation by grace through faith. You have added works into the mix which is heresy. There are not two salvations. There is one and only one. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That is the only salvation that there is.

You type and type to prove to me something I already believe and have repeatedly stated?

No You keep repeating the opposite. You tell us that our sins will be chastised. We will be punished. We will be excluded from the Millennial Kingdom. That is the exact opposite of what "I typed and typed." No misuderstandings (or lies) please. We are not saved by works as you suggest. We are saved by grace through faith.

I aint added nuthin.

The Bible does not say: "We are justified in a secondary sense.
It says we are justified faith
It sure looks to me that you are adding to the word of God. In fact you are butchering it.

James 2
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I just don't use one to cancel out the other.

This is a favorite portion of Scripture of the Catholics. They use it all the time. It is no wonder that you use it too. It has nothing to do with salvation. The entire theme of James--written to Christians--is practical Christian living. He demonstrates that true faith is evidenced by ones works. The key verse is the challnege he gives: Show me thy works without thy faith; and I will show thee my faith by my works. This passage has nothing to do with salvation. The fact that you posted it in evidence of your position is proof of the fact that your position is cultish and that you believe salvation is by works rather than by faith. Heresy!

See above scripture.

I don't have to see the above Scripture.
To say: "We are justified...by doing" is heresy. It is more of your Catholicism. Will you be spouting off indulgences as well? Are you a Catholic in disguise?

Here is a debater with no argument resorting to rhetoric. What a novel concept.

Is it a novel concept to attribute salvation to works. That is a slap in the face of Christ who paid the penalty of your sins with his blood. And you think that you can add to that by your works. How shameful!

.I just quoted James.[/quote\
Yes you did, and entirely out of its context, might I add. Learn to rightly divide the Word of truth, not butcher it.

Absolutely
Hebrews 4:14-16
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

But you don't have the confidence that God forgives your sins--{b]all of them[/b]

In what sense? If you are talking about Acts 27:31, only one. I just stay on the boat!

If you are honest with yourself and before God you don't stay on the boat. You sin. You do it every day. You are not perfect.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
--Quite often you are off the boat and out of fellowship with God.

Only God is true. You are not.
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
--The lie you told above demonstrates that you are not on the boat. No one stays on the boat.

SAVED FROM CHASTENING!!! In this life and at the JSOC. Did anyone bother to read DeHaan?

No, Dehaan is not perfect. I read the Bible.
However, you did write "justified by doing," didn't you?

You're a big old liar! Shame on you!

Let's get this stratight.
I wrote that every cult and major religion believes in salvation by works. By your statement above you also believe the same thing. Now why are you calling me a liar?

Oh my bad, I didn't know. Please forgive me my lord for calling you a liar? Oh wait, I'm a Christian so I don't need forgiveness, because I am already as holy as God!

I don't know about you and your religion. But I don't need forgiveness like a Catholic. I don't need a daily confessional. My sins are all forgiven. They are under the blood. They don't have to be forgiven. When I got saved He forgave all my sins--all of them.

For what part of God's holiness does he chastens you when you sin?

I don't receive any chastening for the standing that I have before God.

For what part of Christ's blood does he chastens you when you sin?

My sins are all under the blood as far as my salvation is concerned. His blood covers them all. I will never receive chastening for any sin in respect to salvation. There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Are you mis-stating my position me because you are dull or because you so desparately want to win an argument?

No, I am showing you the ridiculousness of trying to transform a Catholic doctrine into a Baptist doctrine. It is pure heresy.

"Am I as holy as you and God?" you mean.

No, "If you were to stand before God right now and he were to ask you, "Why should I allow you to enter into my heaven?" what would you answer?
Are you as holy as God?
DHK

 

[DHK]

So you jump from perfectly stating my position to concluding that my views on ME are wrong. The doctrine Eternal Security is the absolute foundation of Millennial Exclusion. If we could stop repeating what we agree upon, then perhaps we could establish and debate what we don't agree upon.

lacy

If you believe in ME you don't believe in eternal security. The two are mutually exclusive. Eternal means eternal--that without end and without interruption. It does not mean it will go for X number of years, be interrupted for 1,000 years while it is lost in purgatory, and then regained. That is not eternal life. Jesus said "I give unto them eternal life." You do not believe in that statement. You believe in salvation, salvation lost, and then salvation regained. That position, like the Catholic's is heretical. It denies the very definition of eternal, and thus the position of OSAS. It infers a postion of salvation by works.
DHK

 

[James_Newman]

The true child of God will not experience 'the terror of the Lord'.

It is the unbeliever who will experience the terror of the Lord.

The believer, knowing the terror of the Lord that is in store for the unbeliever, should persuade men to turn from their wickedness and toward God.

Unbelievers don't appear at the judgment seat of Christ...

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

What is the therefore there for?

 

[Lacy Evans]

No, "If you were to stand before God right now and he were to ask you, "Why should I allow you to enter into my heaven?" what would you answer?
Are you as holy as God?
DHK

Praiase God I will never have to answer that particular question because God knows his own. He bought me with a price.

But with respect to reward, he might have a couple of questions.

Have you suffered? 2 Tim 2:12 Rom 8:17

Have you fought the good fight? 2Tim 4:6-8

Have you neglected the "So great Salvation"? Heb 2:3

Have you held fast to the end? Heb 3:12-19

Have you labored? Heb 4:11

Have you been slothful? Heb 6:8-12

Have you "trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith[ you were] sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Heb 10:25-31

Have you followed peace with all men? Heb 12:14

Have you said in your heart My lord delayeth his coming;
And beg[a]n to smite [your] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken? (Matt 24:42-51)

Have you been profitable? (Matt 25:14-30)?

Have you ministered to the Lord by serving the "Least of these"? Matt 25:31-46

Have you continued in his goodness? (Rom 11:21,22)

Ok I'm done. You can go back to calling me a catholic now and saying that I apply all these things to salvation after I repeatedly tell you I am applying them only to reward.


lacy

 

[Linda64]

If you believe in ME you don't believe in eternal security. The two are mutually exclusive. Eternal means eternal--that without end and without interruption. It does not mean it will go for X number of years, be interrupted for 1,000 years while it is lost in purgatory, and then regained. That is not eternal life. Jesus said "I give unto them eternal life." You do not believe in that statement. You believe in salvation, salvation lost, and then salvation regained. That position, like the Catholic's is heretical. It denies the very definition of eternal, and thus the position of OSAS. It infers a postion of salvation by works.
DHK

Amen DHK!! You could not have stated that any better. ME is nothing but a Protestant Purgatory based on Catholic doctrine.

 

[James_Newman]

This is a favorite portion of Scripture of the Catholics. They use it all the time. It is no wonder that you use it too. It has nothing to do with salvation. The entire theme of James--written to Christians--is practical Christian living. He demonstrates that true faith is evidenced by ones works. The key verse is the challnege he gives: Show me thy works without thy faith; and I will show thee my faith by my works. This passage has nothing to do with salvation. The fact that you posted it in evidence of your position is proof of the fact that your position is cultish and that you believe salvation is by works rather than by faith. Heresy!

I don't have to see the above Scripture.
To say: "We are justified...by doing" is heresy. It is more of your Catholicism. Will you be spouting off indulgences as well? Are you a Catholic in disguise?

Ah, the old "thats the verse the Blah Blah's use" defense. Still doesn't change the fact that James is plainly teaching this "heresy" that we are justified by works. In case you missed it:
James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Is James a Catholic?

 

[Lacy Evans]

If you believe in ME you don't believe in eternal security. The two are mutually exclusive. Eternal means eternal--that without end and without interruption. It does not mean it will go for X number of years, be interrupted for 1,000 years while it is lost in purgatory, and then regained.

This is absolutely wrong because the child of God is still saved when he is being chastened. He never loses his salvation.

Psalms 139:7-12
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Those who champion ME are the staunchest (and sanest) defenders of OSAS.

That is not eternal life. Jesus said "I give unto them eternal life." You do not believe in that statement. You believe in salvation, salvation lost, and then salvation regained.

So say you. But I know what I believe. It is never lost. Even in the most severe chastening that the Bible reveals has no effect on salvation.

That position, like the Catholic's is heretical. It denies the very definition of eternal, and thus the position of OSAS. It infers a postion of salvation by works.

So when I am chastened for a time in this life have I temporarily lost my salvation? What if God kills me? (1 Cor 11:27-32) What about the loss at the JSOC?
What if I just lose a couple of jewels from my crown? (That is an especially scary proposition considering the place where I am going has golden streets, don't you think?)

[sarcasm] For which sin that God can't see does he deny me my blood bought crown? [/sarcasm]

Chastening, no matter how severe it is, or where it occurs, has any effect on either eternity or salvation.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Amen DHK!! You could not have stated that any better. ME is nothing but a Protestant Purgatory based on Catholic doctrine.

Amen DHK!! You could not have stated that any better had you said that communnion is nothing but a Protestant Mass based on Catholic doctrine.

 

[Blammo]

1 John 4:17-18 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.