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Protestant Purgatory?
- Thread starter Linda64
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James_Newman
New Member
DHK said:
If you weren't so busy issuing papal bull about what James really meant when he said a man is justified by works and not faith only, you might already know how I reconcile Romans 4:5. It is the whole point of these threads. Being justified by faith alone is how we secure our eternal salvation. Being justified by works added to faith is how we enter the kingdom. They are not talking about the same justification. James is talking about the justification of a saved man who is already justified by faith. If we apply James 2:24 to eternal salvation, then we have a serious problem because James is not saying that a man is justified by faith and works is the outcome, he is saying man is justified by works. Changing what the bible says to avoid sticky issues is hardly a solution.
"Being justified by faith is alone is how we secure our eternal salvation."James_Newman said:
So far so good.
"They are not talking about the same justification."
Wrong. They are. There is only one justification. We are justified through the blood of Jesus Christ, made righteous in his sight because of the atoning blood of His Son--just as if I had never sinned. That is the only justification that the Bible speaks of.
"Being justified by works added to faith is how we enter the kingdom."
Heresy! That is that old Catholic doctrine again of salavation by works. It is a slap on the face, spitting into the face of Jesus Christ, telling him that that His blood wasn't sufficient enough to bring you into the Kingdom. What an insult!!!
DHK
Diggin in da Word
New Member
Jesus Christ Himself said we cannot enter the kingdom of God except by the water and the Spirit.
Where are the works?
Jesus said in Matthew 5:20
The only way our righteousness can ever exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees is if it is not our righteousness we rely on, but Christ's righteousness. Our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord. Our works are nothing but detestable garments and therefore nothing we can do of our own will cause us to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven; except trusting Christ as Savior and putting on His Righteousness.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Romans 5:1 you see "HAVE BEEN justified" referencing the past justification that happens at the new birth - at conversion. This is what we see in Romans 3 as well.
In Romans 2:11-13 we see "WILL BE JUSTIFIED" on that future day when according to "My gospel God will judge the secrets of all mankind through the man Christ Jesus" -- and in that FUTURE judgmetn the rules of Romans 2 and James 2 are applied.
Obviously.
But in the past justification - the one that happens at conversion it is "by faith alone".
In Christ,
Bob
In Romans 2:11-13 we see "WILL BE JUSTIFIED" on that future day when according to "My gospel God will judge the secrets of all mankind through the man Christ Jesus" -- and in that FUTURE judgmetn the rules of Romans 2 and James 2 are applied.
Obviously.
But in the past justification - the one that happens at conversion it is "by faith alone".
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rom 2
5 But [b]because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God, [/b]
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]
7 to those who [b]by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; [/b]
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and [b]do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. [/b]
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and [b]peace to everyone who does good[/b], to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God[/b].
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for [b]it is not the hearers of the Law[/b] who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified[/b].
Let "the text" speak.
#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.
This is devastating to Calvinism.
#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.
This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.
#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospel.
#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.
#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcome.
#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to
Rom 2:11
The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".
Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.
It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.
Why treat ALL in this way?
ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??
How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?
ANSWER: It does not.
5 But [b]because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God, [/b]
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]
7 to those who [b]by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; [/b]
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and [b]do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. [/b]
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and [b]peace to everyone who does good[/b], to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God[/b].
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for [b]it is not the hearers of the Law[/b] who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified[/b].
Let "the text" speak.
#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.
This is devastating to Calvinism.
#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.
This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.
#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospel.
#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.
#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcome.
#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to
Rom 2:11
The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".
Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.
It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.
Why treat ALL in this way?
ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??
How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?
ANSWER: It does not.
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No, in the OT, when the Bible spoke of discipline and chastening it was always in the form of a rod taken to a child. It was not the loss of a reward. That is the New Age concept of discipline. It isn't so in the Bible. Discipline was always negative reinforcement, not positive. In otherwords it involved punishment, not the taking away of a reward. The believers at Corinth were chastisedLacy Evans said:
1Cor.11:30
For this cause some of you are sickly, some weak, and some of you sleep.
No reward was taken away. But some of them were killed, others were were made sick and weak.
Ananias and Sappira were killed on the spot.
Chastening is discipline and always applies to the earth.
The JSOC is not blisslful. It is in heaven, but it is never blissful to stand before the Almighty Judge and give account of the deeds done in your body whether good or bad. It is not blissful to lose reward that you could have gained. Paul said:
2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
--He knew of the JSOC, and in verse 10 of the same chapter refers to it.
I don't quite know what you are talking about. I don't decide anything. The Lord decides according to His Word, and according to what each believer has done on this earth.
That is similar to what I do with my children. I also reward them according to their works. They get praise for work well done. The school does the same thing when they suffer with a failure for work poorly done. In fact the whole world operates on a system of rewards and loss of reward. I don't find it odd the Lord of Creation designed it to be so. It is in man's nature to be that way. He created us that way. And we will be rewarded for the works that we do on this earth whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
DHK
James_Newman
New Member
DHK said:
No, this is the doctrine of Millennial Reward according to works. You don't have to do anything to secure your eternal salvation, which is exactly the opposite of what the Catholic Church teaches. We believe you can go out and sin like the devil and have a great time at it, and you will still be saved (and if you say not, then it is you who is saying the blood was not sufficient...). You're just going to spend a thousand years in hell while Christians who USED the blood to overcome their flesh and live holy lives will be rewarded. The fact that this reward is called a salvation, or that you have to be justified to receive it is no argument against it.
James_Newman
New Member
Why do you insist that God becomes a New Ager after we die? How can you deny God the right to use the rod at the judgment seat? Discipline IN THIS LIFE always applies to this life. But what about the rich man being tormented in the flames of hell? Did he forget that discipline was only in this life?DHK said:
The Lord did not design the public school system that you are equating with the JSOC. It is man's fallen nature to not properly discipline children. This is the Lord's idea of reward for failure to do what is required.
Proverbs 19:29 Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools.
Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Receiving bad at the judgment seat will not be a frowny face on your report card.
James_Newman
New Member
BobRyan said:
It was probably an accident, brother.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
Funny, my Bible teaches me that those who are put in hell have no way out of hell,
except being taken out after 1000 years
only to be cast forever into the lake of fire.
I find nowhere where one is taken out of hell and given entrance into God's kingdom. Your doctrine of ME is not only heresy, it is downright blasphemy.
James_Newman
New Member
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. So now all you have to do is show that nobody that came out of hell was written in this book.
Lacy Evans
New Member
BobRyan said:
There are numerous warnings about Hell but i don't see any directed at a believer concerning the LOF. In fact Rev 20, says that the only ones in hell who are cast into the LOF are those who are not found written in the book of life. This would be the end of the "Til" IMHO.
Lacy
Re 20:14 -
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 -
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Hope of Glory
New Member
BobRyan said:
Not only that, Bob, but often we are told in Scriptures that we need to being justified in the present tense for something. That can stop. Our past justification cannot stop; it was an event.
We're told that Elizabeth and Zechariah were just because they walked in the commandments of the Lord; works.
One is an event, and that is the justification in the past tense for a saved person; one is present tense, and that justification involves works; fruit-bearing.
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