Protestant Purgatory?

[Hope of Glory]

Christ died for my sins, He was buried, and he rose again the third day.

Amen! And, as we're told in 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

What happens if we don't confess our sins?

 

[Hope of Glory]

works salvation

Oh, come on, James! It's not works when it fits into the person's theology who's posting it! Works aren't really works. Remember?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Do you watch TV for pleasure during primetime for 3 hours? On that day that you watched TV for 3 hours, did you give at least 3 hours to God in prayer and worship?

Here is one for all of you, most of you here are at work. How much time are giving to this board? Is it more than your allotted time for break? If so, you are stealing from your employer. If you died right now with the stain of theft on your soul, where would you go?

Let's see, I'm too cheap to pay for cable, so I don't watch TV, except that I did order the F1 racing season on DVD, so perhaps I've watched little enough TV that I can earn my way into heaven?

Oh, wait, it gets better: I own my own business, so I'm not stealing time from my employer (although he's a bit of a jerk at times), so perhaps this is enough to earn my way into heaven?

Well, that jerk is calling me to get back to work, so I have to go until later in the day...

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Let's see, I'm too cheap to pay for cable, so I don't watch TV, except that I did order the F1 racing season on DVD, so perhaps I've watched little enough TV that I can earn my way into heaven?

Oh, wait, it gets better: I own my own business, so I'm not stealing time from my employer (although he's a bit of a jerk at times), so perhaps this is enough to earn my way into heaven?

Nice evasive technique there.

I am sure there are things you do outside of work that are pleasurable and time consuming. Do you give equal time to God in prayer for each of these things?

How long did you watch the F1 DVD? On the same day did you give God equal or more time in Prayer and Worship?

 

[James_Newman]

The Blood of Christ was for the forgiveness of Sins. Christ died on the cross so that All Sins could be forgiven. Did the redemptive work do away with the need for punishment of the Sin?

If so, why do we have a penal system in a Jesus oriented system?


Example: A child breaks the neighbors window.

Confession: Child tells the neighbor he/she is sorry, and they they are the ones that broke the window.

Forgiveness: The neighbor tells the child that they forgive them.

Punishment: Mom and Dad pay for the replacement window, but make the child do some extra chores around the house to make up the cost of the window.



Somewhere "The wages of Sin is death" has to come into play somewhere.


I think Jesus gave us an example that all Sin has to be paid for:

Matt 5: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

You are right, all these things have to come into play, but they must be rightly divided and correctly applied.

1 John 4:10
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The ultimate punishment for sins is done away with. The believer will not spend eternity in the lake of fire, which the justice of God would demand. He is the propitiation for our sins in that regard, and we will not be the propitiation for our own sins in purgatory because they are already propitiated for. But we have conditional promises that we can fall short of. These promises are only to the believer. A believer may be in danger of hellfire for not living a holy life, and the question of how holy is not an argument against it. But that does not mean that going into that hellfire is somehow affecting the redemptive work of our eternal salvation. But lets assume that it somehow does have something to do with our redemption. The bible does not say that all believers must go through the fires of hell to be redeemed. Some believers will not suffer there, but will be exalted in glory with Christ to reign with Him during the millennium. So either these people were purged beforehand, or there is no merit to the idea that we must be purged to enter eternity.

Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

My sins are purged. Nevertheless, I may suffer loss for my sins at the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You are right, all these things have to come into play, but they must be rightly divided and correctly applied.

1 John 4:10
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The ultimate punishment for sins is done away with. The believer will not spend eternity in the lake of fire, which the justice of God would demand. He is the propitiation for our sins in that regard, and we will not be the propitiation for our own sins in purgatory because they are already propitiated for. But we have conditional promises that we can fall short of. These promises are only to the believer. A believer may be in danger of hellfire for not living a holy life, and the question of how holy is not an argument against it. But that does not mean that going into that hellfire is somehow affecting the redemptive work of our eternal salvation. But lets assume that it somehow does have something to do with our redemption. The bible does not say that all believers must go through the fires of hell to be redeemed. Some believers will not suffer there, but will be exalted in glory with Christ to reign with Him during the millennium. So either these people were purged beforehand, or there is no merit to the idea that we must be purged to enter eternity.

Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

My sins are purged. Nevertheless, I may suffer loss for my sins at the judgment seat of Christ.

Where one will suffer loss is not clear.

 

[James_Newman]

Where one will suffer loss is not clear.

One may very well suffer loss in this life for sins, but the context of 1Cor 3, suffering loss is at the judgment of believers.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Twins are separated at birth;

A gets a good christian family. A becomes saved at an early life. Lives a christian life.

B gets a sinful family. B lives a life of sin.


A and B end up in the Hospital on their death beds at a ripe old age of 100. A helps brings B to Jesus. B gets saved.

1 minute later A and B die.

What happens to each person.

 

[James_Newman]

They each appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

One may very well suffer loss in this life for sins, but the context of 1Cor 3, suffering loss is at the judgment of believers.

True, and they may also suffer loss in the next life.

I kill a man.

I ask Jesus to forgive me.

Jesus does forgive me.

Should I turn myself into the authorities for punishment?

or

Do I say to myself: "The slate is wiped clean by the blood of Jesus" and keep quiet?

 

[Inquiring Mind]

They each appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

Where is the Judgement Seat of Christ?

 

[James_Newman]

True, and they may also suffer loss in the next life.

I kill a man.

I ask Jesus to forgive me.

Jesus does forgive me.

Should I turn myself into the authorities for punishment?

or

Do I say to myself: "The slate is wiped clean by the blood of Jesus" and keep quiet?

The bible is clear that we will reap what we sow. If you murder someone, and have repented of it, you should probably turn yourself in as part of bringing forth fruits meet for repentance. But what does this have to do with the subject at hand?

 

[James_Newman]

Where is the Judgement Seat of Christ?

Here, there, or in the air? It's wherever the Lord sits down to judge His people. Better question is when is the judgment seat of Christ.

Hebrews 10:30
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[Inquiring Mind]

The bible is clear that we will reap what we sow. If you murder someone, and have repented of it, you should probably turn yourself in as part of bringing forth fruits meet for repentance. But what does this have to do with the subject at hand?

Why do I need to bring forth fruits of repentance if Christ has made atonement for my sin and any futrue sin I may commit prior to my death?

What does this have to do with Purification? We will get to it.

 

[James_Newman]

Why do I need to bring forth fruits of repentance if Christ has made atonement for my sin and any futrue sin I may commit prior to my death?

What does this have to do with Purification? We will get to it.

Oh, thats easy. So you don't go to hell.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Oh, thats easy. So you don't go to hell.

Why would I go to hell? Jesus has forgiven the Sin. Jesus has made atonement for the Sin.

 

[James_Newman]

Yes, he has. But we can still be chastened as children of God, even though we will never experience the eternal lake of fire. That is where you and I agree. Where you and I disagree is that this chastening is somehow affecting our salvation.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Yes, he has. But we can still be chastened as children of God, even though we will never experience the eternal lake of fire. That is where you and I agree. Where you and I disagree is that this chastening is somehow affecting our salvation.

You have not answered the question. You said I would go to hell for not turning myself in. Therefore you are saying that the sin requires temporal punishment.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Yes, he has. But we can still be chastened as children of God, even though we will never experience the eternal lake of fire. That is where you and I agree. Where you and I disagree is that this chastening is somehow affecting our salvation.

Can he not chasten us after death?

 

[James_Newman]

Can he not chasten us after death?

Of course He can.