George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I did more than that. And the OP has yet to be corrected with counter-defining cross references.
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Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation
- Thread starter George Antonios
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Particular
Well-Known Member
This is why I quickly deduced this thread was a waste of energy.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
So many complaints, so few defining cross-references.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
You may think you did more than that, but you didn't.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Ok David, you win.
Particular
Well-Known Member
[emoji2524]
I guess that's on me - i shouldn't have been lazy and should've split it up. Because I see my points have clearly failed to hit the mark altogether based on your responses.
I'm going to try micro-focusing on just this one point here - for the larger context, refer my earlier version
Biblical definition of the term "Adoption":
Your interpretation - adoption = redemption of bodies
My interpretation - adoption = placing as a son
When substituting our definitions in Gal 4:5-6,
Your interpretation gives -
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the redemption of bodies.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
My interpretation gives -
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the placing as a son.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Where is the linking cross-reference between v.5 and v.6 in your version? v.6 begins with "And because ye are sons" - where does v.5 mention they are sons or made sons according to your interpretation?
Whereas my interpretation continues the logical inferring perfectly.
How then do you still support your definition of adoption = redemption of bodies?
Walpole
Well-Known Member
I count eight posts of yours in this thread. Do you normally devote so much time to things you consider a waste of energy?
Anyone with a lick of common sense would have figured they need God to change a persons mind instead of trying themselves especially when that's the whole point of their brilliant theology.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
No, as I've already mentioned, both interpretations are true in their contexts.
In Romans 8, where Paul is speaking of predestination and adoption, it's the redemption of the body he's talking about, as he himself tells us: Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
See Romans 8:23 above.
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Particular
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:18-39 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hmmmm. i think you've gone beyond Paul and the Scriptures. While Paul taught election and predestination, he never taught sitting back and not trying to persuade men. Paul taught us to be all things to all men that by any means possible we might save some. Knowing the fear of the Lord, he taught us to persuade men. He also taught that evangelism is all of God and that God alone saves.
If your view of sovereignty causes you to sit back, I think you've missed the point.
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Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Romans 8, we have already received the adoption as God's children, we dont wait for it.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:23, is the glorification when we get a new body at the resurrection of the justified. It is an adoption for us to get glorified bodies.
First we are spiritually adopted into the beloved, which means we are His children so then we are saved, and then at His coming we get the redemption of our bodies.
So our salvation is multifaceted, and no one has yet received a resurrected body, that is still in the future.
Okay, I can work with this for now since you do find my interpretation of Gal 4 true within its own context.
How can you prove Rom 8 and Gal 4 are two different contexts? By your own words cross-referencing, I can go a step better and do whole verse referencing to show they are exactly the same context :
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Now, that these are the exact same stream of thoughts from Paul between Rom 8 and Gal 4, cross-referenced word-for-word and idea-for-idea, don't you at least acknowledge that a simple word association is not sufficient and that further interpretation is required?
I guess this point of mine too was missed in my loong post.
This is how I read Rom 8:23 -
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
What is all creation waiting for? The manifestation. The revelation. The apokalupsis.
Of whom? The sons of God. The Adoption (as per my interpretation, where Adoption = Placing as Sons).
And this is the same waiting mentioned in v.23 and so its equivalent without the grammatical device of abbreviating phrases to avoid repetition within the same context is -
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the manifestation of the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
The redemption of our bodies is a description of the manifestation, the apokalupsis, and not a definition itself of the word adoption. Just like in Heb 11:1, where faith is not defined, but described.
So I hold no contradictions within my own interpretation between all of Rom 8 and Gal 4.
Particular
Well-Known Member
So Christians are not adopted by God until they have their resurrected bodies sometime in the future? Until then we are not children of God or saved, we are still orphans in need of saving? God does not declare us to be his children because we don't have our new bodies?
Is that an accurate understanding of your position on adoption? Please clarify.
Not at all. I'm arguing for a distinction in the terms "adoption" and "manifestation of adoption". "Adoption" refers to the placing as sons by definition and occurs in the here and now for the believer. "Manifestation of adoption" refers to the redemption of bodies by description and occurs at the end of time.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Manifestation would be so that all creation sees us with glorified bodies, justifying what God has said what He will cause to happen for His children. Right now our life is hid with Christ in God.
BUT we have been raised with Christ, because HE LIVES, we live right now, we have the adoption as sons right now. When Christ appears, see v3.
Colossians 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Carnality but Christ
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
I have the sense some posters think we have not yet been raised with Christ.
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