View attachment 3425 I ask you all to be as careful with terms as you can be. Our Calvinist brethren often denounce conflation of terms. We are not talking about election here. The thread is about
predestination unto
salvation. And please
define terms with
cross-references, not general one-liners.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Your position from this verse is that adoption = redemption of our body.
I simply know from common language that adoption does not mean that - when I adopt a child, I'm not redeeming its body. You'd argue against man's dictionaries. So I head to Strong's NT dictionary -
G5206 uihothesia - From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).
The word uihothesia is a compound of G5207 uihos meaning Son and G5087 tithēmi meaning To Place, literally and figuratively. This aligns perfectly with my common language knowledge too, since when I adopt a child, I am 'Placing as Son/Daughter' this child.
If this isn't enough, I'll persist -
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
v.1-3 show that for a time, we are servants in bondage to the law - just like a child having to grow up to the appointed time set by the father to assume heirship without the need for tutors and governors. Until such time, there is no difference between the heir and the servant - the heirship is not fully realized yet. But v.4-5 has an end of that time, Christ Himself redeeming us from under the servant bondage to the law so that we may receive the adoption, the Placing of Sons and Daughters, the heirship realized.
Now as per
your interpretation of v.5, we were redeemed from under the law so that our bodies may be redeemed.
As per
my interpretation, we were redeemed from under the law so that we may be placed as sons/daughters.
Which of these lead on consistently to v.6-7 ?
Gal 4:6 And
because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but
a son; and if a son, then
an heir of God through Christ.
my interpretation - given that in v.5 we are placed as sons, v.6 has God sending us the Spirit of His Son, and we are enabled to cry out Abba Father, as sons do. And now we are no longer the same as the v.1 servant, but an heir
because we are sons.
your interpretation - what's the connection between v.5 'redemption of our bodies' and v.6 'because ye are sons'? Where's the word association in cross-references?
Do you see the dependence of God sending the Spirit of His Son, on us having to be made sons - if we're not made sons, then no Spirit and no crying out Abba Father. And do you see we cannot be made sons unless we are redeemed from bondage under the law. These are events that happen now in the believer's life - not after the final resurrection. We are redeemed now from the law, we receive the adoption now to be sons, and so we receive the Spirit now so that we can call out to God as our Abba Father - now, and not at the end of times. Doesn't this directly contradict your interpretation of redemption of bodies at the end of times?
How do I read Rom 8:23 -
"Not only all creation but we ourselves groan waiting..."
where has Paul referenced the waiting of all creation -
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
What are they waiting for - the manifestation, the revealing(ESV) of the adoption. See how this fits perfectly with Strong's definition of Adoption=Placed Sons.
Consequently I read Rom 8:23 as "Not only all creation but we ourselves groan waiting for the manifestation of the adoption". And this perfectly fits with "manifestation of the adoption" = "redemption of our bodies". See how it's completely consistent with Adoption=Placed Sons.
On the other hand, as per your interpretation comparing equal parts of v.19 and v.23, what is the word association between "sons of God" in v.19 and "redemption of our bodies" in v.23? See how you've ignored simple grammatical devices to build up an entire doctrine that anyway is contradicted in Gal 4..
And to conclude this really long post (which I usually don't do and apologize for not taking the efforts to split up), since it's been shown from Gal 4 that adoption must mean placing as sons in the here and now for a believer and given the reconciliation of Rom 8 redemption of our bodies to be the manifestation of the adoption at the end of times, we now must revisit Eph 1:5.
If we were predestinated to the adoption, then by definition God predestinated us to be placed Sons. And we know from Gal 3:26, that we become Sons only by faith in Christ Jesus. So if God predestinated something that was dependent on another thing, it follows God must've predestinated the dependency too - implying God predestinated our faith too. And it's undisputed that whosoever has faith, has salvation - therefore God has predestinated our salvation.
This is pretty conclusive and I've been faithful to Scriptures and in intent too - I hope you find it in you to agree. Again, this doesn't prove all your beliefs are wrong - I too don't agree with the calvinists when they say God doesn't make a genuine offer of salvation to the non-elect, which is why I hold Single Predestination as the only faithful interpretation of Scriptures.
