Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

[Calminian]

The idea, already discussed, is that God could have saved us but without necessarily also promising us a resurrection body like unto his Son's physical image. But God, in his great grace, predestinated the believer to in fact inherit such a body.

This is not the definition of justification. Sorry, you are greatly misinformed in this area.

 

[George Antonios]

This is not the definition of justification. Sorry, you are greatly misinformed in this area.

Who said anything about justification?

 

[Calminian]

Who said anything about justification?

Paul, in the passage you and I cited.

Wait, you didn't know justification was mentioned on Romans 8:29-30? George, please tell me this is parody.

 

[George Antonios]

Paul, in the passage you and I cited.

Wait, you didn't know justification was mentioned on Romans 8:29-30? George, please tell me this is parody.

I meant between me and you talking. We were discussing predestination. Look at the OP table again and the defining cross-references. No one, in 7 pages, has yet disproved the OP with defining cross-references [which distinguish between the salvation of a lost man and the predestinated inheritance of believers] or by providing a verse where a lost man is predestinated unto salvation. Instead of thinly veiled scorn, how about you simply provide one such verse? Again, if you refer to Romans 8:29, you must then correct the OP table with defining cross-references. Until then, I wait.

 

[Calminian]

I meant between me and you talking. We were discussing predestination. Look at the OP table again and the defining cross-references. No one, in 7 pages, has yet disproved the OP.....

I've noticed you say this about most of your posts. I'll not comment on your subjective evaluations.

with defining cross-references [which distinguish between the salvation of a lost man and the predestinated inheritance of believers] or by providing a verse where a lost man is predestinated unto salvation. Instead of thinly veiled scorn, how about you simply provide one such verse? Again, if you refer to Romans 8:29, you must then correct the OP table with defining cross-references. Until then, I wait.

I think Paul has already corrected your OP. We are predestined to be called, justified and glorified, per v. 30. You can deny this, but Paul said it. You ignored this word (justified) in your OP. Perhaps you're not a big fan of Paul.

Either way, the debate is not about whether or not we're predestined to be saved (justified, glorified). The debate is on what basis.

 

[George Antonios]

I think Paul has already corrected your OP. We are predestined to be called, justified and glorified, per v. 30. You can deny this, but Paul said it.

Again, just disagreeing, without disproving the OP with defining cross-references, proves nothing except the fact that you disagree.

I've noticed you say this about most of your posts. I'll not comment on your subjective evaluations.

No, you certainly won't. And that was basically the reply of everyone else who disagreed.

 

[Scott Downey]

I meant between me and you talking. We were discussing predestination. Look at the OP table again and the defining cross-references. No one, in 7 pages, has yet disproved the OP with defining cross-references [which distinguish between the salvation of a lost man and the predestinated inheritance of believers] or by providing a verse where a lost man is predestinated unto salvation. Instead of thinly veiled scorn, how about you simply provide one such verse? Again, if you refer to Romans 8:29, you must then correct the OP table with defining cross-references. Until then, I wait.

Reading comprehension skills?
The verse says those he called He justified, there is a progression going on here.
God foreknows His people, He then predestines them, then God calls them, then God justifies them, then God glorifies them.
And these are all in the past tense, not present tense, meaning they are already as if accomplished in the Spirit from before the foundation of the earth, and they are just being walked out as God has preordained them to be as He has desired in God's perfect time for us.

And it can not be undone what God has decreed, their salvation is secure. No one is born saved, God has foreknown them saved as His people and so then they are His people, His children.

God declares things that are not as though they were.

 

[Calminian]

Again, just disagreeing, without disproving the OP with defining cross-references, proves nothing except the fact that you disagree.....

You ignored the word justification in your OP. I think that says it all. Until you address it, you're OP has not made an argument.

 

[Calminian]

Reading comprehension skills?
The verse says those he called He justified, there is a progression going on here.
God foreknows His people, He then predestines them, then God calls them, then God justifies them, then God glorifies them.
And these are all in the past tense, not present tense, meaning they are already as if accomplished in the Spirit from before the foundation of the earth, and they are just being walked out as God has preordained them to be as He has desired in God's perfect time for us.

And he conveniently chose not to comment on the word justified. Frankly, he needs to start over with the OP and not ignore this vital word.

 

[George Antonios]

Reading comprehension skills?
The verse says those he called He justified, there is a progression going on here.
God foreknows His people, He then predestines them, then God calls them, then God justifies them, then God glorifies them.
And these are all in the past tense, not present tense, meaning they are already as if accomplished in the Spirit from before the foundation of the earth, and they are just being walked out as God has preordained them to be as He has desired in God's perfect time for us.

God declares things that are not as though they were.

And it can not be undone what God has decreed, their salvation is secure. No one is born saved, God has foreknown them saved as His people and so then they are.

You have yet to correct the OP table with defining cross-references.

 

[George Antonios]

You ignored the word justification in your OP. I think that says it all. Until you address it, you're OP has not made an argument.

You have yet to correct the OP table with defining cross-references.

 

[Calminian]

You have yet to correct the OP table with defining cross-references.

I did. The OP is worthless because it ignores the word justified. It's incoherent. All one has to do is read Romans 8:30 to completely dismiss your thesis.

Paul's word is inspired and sufficient. Your incomplete OP table is neither.

 

[George Antonios]

I did. The OP is worthless because it ignores the word justified. It's incoherent. All one has to do is read Romans 8:30 to completely dismiss your thesis.

Paul's word is inspired. Your OP table is not.

Maybe you can't see my point maybe because you've never encountered it before. You may still disagree, but let me explain it:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The predestination of Romans 8:30 is the predestination of Romans 8:29. The predestination of Romans 8:29 is a predestination of the believer [and one must first show that that predestination happens exclusively in eternity past and not at all at the moment of one's salvation] to obtain a resurrection body like Christ's resurrection body. This was demonstrated in the OP with defining cross-references. Now, in v.30, Paul is saying: whom he did predestinate [the believers, whose destiny God fixed to obtain a certain inheritance and a resurrection body like unto his Son's] God first had to "call" them and "justify" them and "glorify" them in Christ Jesus. You don't get a resurrection body like unto Christ's unless you've been justified by faith in Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Maybe you can't see my point maybe because you've never encountered it before. You may still disagree, but let me explain it:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The predestination of Romans 8:30 is the predestination of Romans 8:29. The predestination of Romans 8:29 is a predestination of the believer [and one must first show that that predestination happens exclusively in eternity past and not at all at the moment of one's salvation] to obtain a resurrection body like Christ's resurrection body. This was demonstrated in the OP with defining cross-references. Now, in v.30, Paul is saying: whom he did predestinate [the believers, whose destiny God fixed to obtain a certain inheritance and a resurrection body like unto his Son's] God first had to "call" them and "justify" them and "glorify" them in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians also has this word predestined and its in reference to certain people God predestined to be saved. God 'chose us in Him', before we were born to be in Christ to the praise of the glory of His grace. Not the predestination of believers, because they could not believe who had not yet been born.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

 

[Calminian]

Maybe you can't see my point maybe because you've never encountered it before. You may still disagree, but let me explain it:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The predestination of Romans 8:30 is the predestination of Romans 8:29. The predestination of Romans 8:29 is a predestination of the believer [and one must first show that that predestination happens exclusively in eternity past and not at all at the moment of one's salvation] to obtain a resurrection body like Christ's resurrection body. This was demonstrated in the OP with defining cross-references. Now, in v.30, Paul is saying: whom he did predestinate [the believers, whose destiny God fixed to obtain a certain inheritance and a resurrection body like unto his Son's] God first had to "call" them and "justify" them and "glorify" them in Christ Jesus.

As I've tried to explain to you, even Arminians, who agree with you that Paul is speaking about predestination of believers whom he foreknew, would disagree with you. Either way, regardless of your view of foreknowledge, we are destined to be named (called), saved (justified) and raised up on the last day (glorified).

All of these follow predestination, which is based on God's foreknowledge (eternity past).

I think you need to think further on these things.

 

[George Antonios]

Ephesians also has this word predestined and its in reference to certain people God predestined to be saved. God 'chose us in Him', before we were born to be in Christ to the praise of the glory of His grace. Not the predestination of believers, because they could not believe who had not yet been born.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

There is no predestination to salvation here. Please refer to verses and cross-references in the OP.

 

[Calminian]

George do you make a distinction between faith and salvation?

 

[George Antonios]

Either way, regardless if your view of foreknowledge, we are destined to be named (called), saved (justified) and raised up on the last day (glorified).

Right, only Paul did not say that. He only said that believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of God's son [his physical resurrection body as pointed out by defining cross-references in the OP].

 

[Calminian]

Right, only Paul did not say that. He only said that believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of God's son [his physical resurrection body as pointed out by defining cross-references in the OP].

He doesn't say what? That those predestined are called, justified and glorified? I'm sorry, but you're simply ignoring the plain written word, which is leading you to great confusion. You need to study this issue further.

 

[George Antonios]

He doesn't say what? That those predestined are called, justified and glorified?

The above is very different from the below:

we are destined to be named (called), saved (justified) and raised up on the last day (glorified).

Of course the predestinated are called, justified, and glorified. They just weren't predestinated to be called, justified, and glorified. Very different wordings and meanings my friend.
The called/justified/glorified get predestinated to get a resurrection body like Christ and an inheritance.
That's what it's saying. And that's what the cross-references in the OP confirm.

Catch you later.