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Featured Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Dec 20, 2019.

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  1. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    This is not the definition of justification. Sorry, you are greatly misinformed in this area.
     
    #121 Calminian, Dec 23, 2019
  2. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Who said anything about justification?
     
    #122 George Antonios, Dec 23, 2019
  3. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Paul, in the passage you and I cited.

    Wait, you didn't know justification was mentioned on Romans 8:29-30? George, please tell me this is parody.
     
    #123 Calminian, Dec 23, 2019
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  4. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I meant between me and you talking. We were discussing predestination. Look at the OP table again and the defining cross-references. No one, in 7 pages, has yet disproved the OP with defining cross-references [which distinguish between the salvation of a lost man and the predestinated inheritance of believers] or by providing a verse where a lost man is predestinated unto salvation. Instead of thinly veiled scorn, how about you simply provide one such verse? Again, if you refer to Romans 8:29, you must then correct the OP table with defining cross-references. Until then, I wait.
     
    #124 George Antonios, Dec 23, 2019
  5. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I've noticed you say this about most of your posts. I'll not comment on your subjective evaluations.

    I think Paul has already corrected your OP. We are predestined to be called, justified and glorified, per v. 30. You can deny this, but Paul said it. You ignored this word (justified) in your OP. Perhaps you're not a big fan of Paul.

    Either way, the debate is not about whether or not we're predestined to be saved (justified, glorified). The debate is on what basis.
     
    #125 Calminian, Dec 23, 2019
  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Again, just disagreeing, without disproving the OP with defining cross-references, proves nothing except the fact that you disagree.

    No, you certainly won't. And that was basically the reply of everyone else who disagreed.
     
    #126 George Antonios, Dec 23, 2019
  7. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Reading comprehension skills?
    The verse says those he called He justified, there is a progression going on here.
    God foreknows His people, He then predestines them, then God calls them, then God justifies them, then God glorifies them.
    And these are all in the past tense, not present tense, meaning they are already as if accomplished in the Spirit from before the foundation of the earth, and they are just being walked out as God has preordained them to be as He has desired in God's perfect time for us.

    And it can not be undone what God has decreed, their salvation is secure. No one is born saved, God has foreknown them saved as His people and so then they are His people, His children.

    God declares things that are not as though they were.
     
    #127 Scott Downey, Dec 23, 2019
  8. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    You ignored the word justification in your OP. I think that says it all. Until you address it, you're OP has not made an argument.
     
    #128 Calminian, Dec 23, 2019
  9. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    And he conveniently chose not to comment on the word justified. Frankly, he needs to start over with the OP and not ignore this vital word.
     
    #129 Calminian, Dec 23, 2019
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  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You have yet to correct the OP table with defining cross-references.
     
    #130 George Antonios, Dec 23, 2019
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You have yet to correct the OP table with defining cross-references.
     
    #131 George Antonios, Dec 23, 2019
  12. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I did. The OP is worthless because it ignores the word justified. It's incoherent. All one has to do is read Romans 8:30 to completely dismiss your thesis.

    Paul's word is inspired and sufficient. Your incomplete OP table is neither.
     
    #132 Calminian, Dec 23, 2019
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  13. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you can't see my point maybe because you've never encountered it before. You may still disagree, but let me explain it:

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    The predestination of Romans 8:30 is the predestination of Romans 8:29. The predestination of Romans 8:29 is a predestination of the believer [and one must first show that that predestination happens exclusively in eternity past and not at all at the moment of one's salvation] to obtain a resurrection body like Christ's resurrection body. This was demonstrated in the OP with defining cross-references. Now, in v.30, Paul is saying: whom he did predestinate [the believers, whose destiny God fixed to obtain a certain inheritance and a resurrection body like unto his Son's] God first had to "call" them and "justify" them and "glorify" them in Christ Jesus. You don't get a resurrection body like unto Christ's unless you've been justified by faith in Christ.
     
    #133 George Antonios, Dec 23, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
  14. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians also has this word predestined and its in reference to certain people God predestined to be saved. God 'chose us in Him', before we were born to be in Christ to the praise of the glory of His grace. Not the predestination of believers, because they could not believe who had not yet been born.

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
     
    #134 Scott Downey, Dec 23, 2019
  15. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    As I've tried to explain to you, even Arminians, who agree with you that Paul is speaking about predestination of believers whom he foreknew, would disagree with you. Either way, regardless of your view of foreknowledge, we are destined to be named (called), saved (justified) and raised up on the last day (glorified).

    All of these follow predestination, which is based on God's foreknowledge (eternity past).

    I think you need to think further on these things.
     
    #135 Calminian, Dec 23, 2019
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  16. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    There is no predestination to salvation here. Please refer to verses and cross-references in the OP.
     
    #136 George Antonios, Dec 23, 2019
  17. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    George do you make a distinction between faith and salvation?
     
    #137 Calminian, Dec 23, 2019
  18. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Right, only Paul did not say that. He only said that believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of God's son [his physical resurrection body as pointed out by defining cross-references in the OP].
     
    #138 George Antonios, Dec 23, 2019
  19. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    He doesn't say what? That those predestined are called, justified and glorified? I'm sorry, but you're simply ignoring the plain written word, which is leading you to great confusion. You need to study this issue further.
     
    #139 Calminian, Dec 23, 2019
  20. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    The above is very different from the below:
    Of course the predestinated are called, justified, and glorified. They just weren't predestinated to be called, justified, and glorified. Very different wordings and meanings my friend.
    The called/justified/glorified get predestinated to get a resurrection body like Christ and an inheritance.
    That's what it's saying. And that's what the cross-references in the OP confirm.

    Catch you later.
     
    #140 George Antonios, Dec 23, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
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