Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

[George Antonios]

The saved are predestinted to be resurrected in a body like that of Christ.

Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, . . ."

Epheians 1:4-5, ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, . . ."

Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ."

Precisely, and that's what the OP showed.

 

[Dave G]

Does Proverbs 16:4 say God made all things for His purpose, including the wicked for the day of evil. Note how "made all things, including future things, is read into the text.

Van,
Believe the words, please:

" The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the Lord.
2 All the ways of a man [are] clean in his own eyes; but the Lord weigheth the spirits.
3 Commit thy works unto the Lord, and thy thoughts shall be established.
4 The Lord hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
5 Every one [that is] proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: [though] hand [join] in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged:and by the fear of the Lord [men] depart from evil.
7 When a man’s ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.
8 Better [is] a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.
9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps." ( Proverbs 16:1-9 )

"All things for Himself" means "all things"..."for Himself".

On and on they post verse after verse, but none actually support their bogus doctrine.

If you're going to accuse someone of having bogus doctrine and of deflecting and obfuscating, then what you're doing is accusing them of not understanding the Scriptures.
The Lord knows that I'm not perfect, and neither are you.
That's where forgiveness comes in, and gracious treatment of one another also comes in.

Now is your chance to show the reader how you understand it and to correct them, lovingly, for being in error.

What does the passage above say, line by line?

 

[Scott Downey]

I think you do not understand. So let us sort this out. God is fully omniscient. Agreed?
God then knows before hand who He is going to save and who He is not going to save. Agreed?

Now the book of life is the determining factor who is going to be saved and not saved (Revelation 20:15). Agreed?

First reference to this book is Exodus 32:33. Agreed?

Little childeren who die before an age where they can come to faith in Christ are safe (Mark 10:14). Agreed?

Again, the book of life is the determining factor who is going to be saved (Revelation 20:15). Agreed?

So you claim salvation outside of Jesus Christ for people who do not know as in their ignorance?
That is the spirit of AntiChrist. Jesus tells us He is the only way to the Father. There is no salvation outside of having your name written in the book of Life of the Lamb of God.

Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

I can see by what you wrote your deflecting from the truth.

 

[Scott Downey]

So friends, reams of writing later, we're still waiting for a verse that says that a man is predestinated unto salvation.
The predestination verses were all defined/expounded with defining cross-references in the OP, which has been timidly challenged with simple utterances of disagreement.
No one has yet provided counter-defining cross-references relative to the OP.

This is about salvation of the person, as it ends in their glorification with Christ. it is also called the golden chain of redemption.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Justified by God means your sins are forgiven and your saved.

Romans 3 tells us what justification means, and it means their saved.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[George Antonios]

Then answer it according to God knowing someone, and the Lord Jesus telling them that He never knew ( foreknowledge ) them.

Romans 8:28-39 is not just about God knowing who will believe and who won't.
It's about God loving someone enough to send His Son to suffer and die for them on a cross, and to become their Mediator and Saviour.

Not exactly.
All men are God's work.
But the "works" being spoken of in Acts of the Apostles 15:18 are God's works of righteousness...

" After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:" ( Acts of the Apostles 15:16-19 )

Please read it again, George.
The context of who "the works" are, is developed right in the passage.

The believer, who believed when God "worked" ( John 6:29 ), is the "whosoever believeth" from John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, etc.
The same as Romans 9:22-24 develops, the same as Ephesians 2:10 develops, and the same as many other passages develop.
They are the same "works" who have had their names written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ).


Every believer in Christ is a work of righteousness, and a special work of His grace.

This has already been addressed with Acts 15:18 & Proverbs 16:4.
Those verses are just as true and the others you quoted.
And again, no one denies that sometimes "knowledge" in the Bible is a salvific knowledge of God.
You're fighting a battle I'm not in.

 

[George Antonios]

This is about salvation of the person, as it ends in their glorification with Christ. it is also called the golden chain of redemption.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Justified by God means your sins are forgiven and your saved.

Romans 3 tells us what justification means, and it means their saved.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Yet again, this avoids the defining cross-references in the OP.
We want Bible cross-references fleshed out and defining the terms and their consequences.
Not pre-packaged theology.

 

[Reformed1689]

It's only non-sense because of the confounding of the terms salvation, predestination, election, and sanctification - which is odd since the Calvinists are ever pleading with us (with good reason) not to confound the terms.
Also because in your mind, all that stuff happens by an eternal decree in eternity past.

I would send you back, yet again, the OP, and to the defining cross-references.

"God foreknew that Bobby would get saved (1Pe.1:2, Ro.8:29) and, once Bobby got saved [wait, don't jump the gun], God fixed his destination to end up with a glorified resurrection body (Ro.8:29) in which he would praise God for ever (Eph.1:11-12). (You see, God could have chosen to save men without necessarily granting them a glorified body like his Son's or an inheritance in glory - but he did predestinate us believers to that).
That arrangement of things was foreordained of God before the foundation of the world. Voilà.
There is no predestination unto salvation anywhere."

Prove that interpretation wrong without simply listing references or quoting some creed.
Take it apart, with cross-references, flesh out the verses, show the problem with the words of the verses.

I've already proven your table is off-base.

 

[George Antonios]

I've already proven your table is off-base.

How? Where? By listing references?

 

[Reformed1689]

How? Where? By listing references?

#76

You don't need to list references. I already shown the flaw of your arguments.

 

[George Antonios]

Alright friends, the more posts are written, the greater the testimony to the fact that there is no verse which speaks of predestinating a lost man unto salvation.

Read the posts and note for yourself, no such verse was ever provided.

Lord willing, we can use this fact in further discussions, now that it has been publicly displayed.

God bless you all as you serve him.

 

[Scott Downey]

So guys, so far, no one has challenged the OP with opposite defining cross-references (as far as what a man is predestinated unto) and no one has provided a single verse where a man is predestinated unto salvation.
Let the readers look back and consider. That is the conclusion.

Only in your mind.

 

[Reformed1689]

Alright friends, the more posts are written, the greater the testimony to the fact that there is no verse which speaks of predestinating a lost man unto salvation.

Read the posts and note for yourself, no such verse was ever provided.

Lord willing, we can use this fact in further discussions, now that it has been publicly displayed.

God bless you all as you serve him.

George this is ridiculous. If you want to take this hardline, nonsensical route, by your standard you must also deny the Trinity.

 

[George Antonios]

Only in your mind.

Which is why you didn't provide the verse in your post? ...

 

[Scott Downey]

Which is why you didn't provide the verse in your post? ...

I already did, so sorry, but this is like disputing with a crazy person. It goes no where.

 

[George Antonios]

Sorry, but this is like disputing with a crazy person.

Still no verse.

 

[Reformed1689]

Still no verse.

So you have a doctorate? From where?

 

[George Antonios]

I already did, so sorry, but this is like disputing with a crazy person. It goes no where.

You edited that post, and still did not list the verse that you said you provided.

 

[George Antonios]

So you have a doctorate? From where?

Your argument was the OP was wrong because I'm the one that wrote the table.
You think now I'm going to tell you from whence is my doctorate? Don't think so.

 

[37818]

So you claim salvation outside of Jesus Christ for people who do not know as in their ignorance?

What do you mean? You failed to answer each of my questions. So best I can tell, you do not understand.

God is fully omniscient. Agreed?
God then knows before hand who He is going to save and who He is not going to save. Agreed?

Now the book of life is the determining factor who is going to be saved and not saved (Revelation 20:15). Agreed?

First reference to this book is Exodus 32:33. Agreed?

Little childeren who die before an age where they can come to faith in Christ are safe (Mark 10:14). Agreed?

Again, the book of life is the determining factor who is going to be saved (Revelation 20:15). Agreed?

That is the spirit of AntiChrist.

It seems to me you are making a false accusation because you do not know what you are taking about.

Jesus tells us He is the only way to the Father. There is no salvation outside of having your name written in the book of Life of the Lamb of God.

Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

None of that has been denyed and so is not at issue.

I can see by what you wrote your deflecting from the truth.

That is just what you did by not answering my questions.
Romans 2:1, ". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. . . ."

 

[Scott Downey]

So you claim salvation outside of Jesus Christ for people who do not know as in their ignorance?
That is the spirit of AntiChrist. Jesus tells us He is the only way to the Father. There is no salvation outside of having your name written in the book of Life of the Lamb of God.

Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

I can see by what you wrote your deflecting from the truth.

Adding that infants and little children who have died had their names written in the book of Life from the foundation of the world, but the ones that lived into adulthood and never believed regardless of whether they heard or not, they all willfully sinned and died and therefore they never had their names written in the Book of Life of the Lamb from the foundation of the world.

The ones that died in infancy, God had foreknown that and they were elect, and since knowing Christ and God is by revelation from His Spirit to our own spirits, He can easily have willed that they know Christ and God, even as a little baby. Refer to John the Baptist who leaped in the womb when Christ inside of Mary came to visit them.

Luke 1:41And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:44For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

God can choose to not impute to a man their sin and will to reveal Himself as the Lord their Savior to anyone He wishes.
.Luke 10
Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All[g] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”