Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

[George Antonios]

Because it is a pointless and useless endeavor. You have boxed in the definition to your particular position and told others they can only argue within the parameters of that perspective. In that structure only a fool would engage you. I have already wasted too much time on this.
This is my last comment to you in this thread. Carry on.

You ignore the fact that I invited you to provide your own verses and defining cross-references.
The true reason that you did not, and that you will proceed no further, is that there is no such verse.

 

[InTheLight]

I disagree with your definition. Therefore it seems fruitless to argue when we cannot agree on the meaning of the terms being used.

Hang on a sec. An argument is about which debate position is correct. You say you disagree with George's definition of adoption. He asked you to provide your definition of adoption (and give scripture supporting your definition.)

Rather than provide him with your definition you throw your hands in the air and say "I disagree with your definition, therefore I don't want to have a conversation about it."

In fact, the conversation is ABOUT the definition of adoption, not whether you agree with George's definition.

 

[Iconoclast]

View attachment 3425 I ask you all to be as careful with terms as you can be. Our Calvinist brethren often denounce conflation of terms. We are not talking about election here. The thread is about predestination unto salvation. And please define terms with cross-references, not general one-liners.

You have it all wrong. Predestination deals with the sanctification of the person, God foreknew.
As God deals with His elect, He has purposed to conform them the total image of the Son.
That Is body soul and spirit.
Not just the glorified body.

 

[George Antonios]

You have it all wrong. Predestination deals with the sanctification of the person, God foreknew.
As God deals with His elect, He has purposed to conform them the total image of the Son.
That Is body soul and spirit.
Not just the glorified body.

You know, I'm on a Christian board, and a Baptist one at that, and getting most people to deal with verses is like pulling teeth.
You've read the O.P. You've read the defining cross-references. Give me defining cross-references please, not pre-packaged theology.
Now, we have yet to be shown ONE verse that shows that predestination is unto salvation. Is it because there is no such verse?

 

[MB]

You know, I'm on a Christian board, and a Baptist one at that, and getting most people to deal with verses is like pulling teeth.
You've read the O.P. You've read the defining cross-references. Give me defining cross-references please, not pre-packaged theology.
Now, we have yet to be shown ONE verse that shows that predestination is unto salvation. Is it because there is no such verse?

I have the same problem with them showing me that Gentiles are elect. The Bible says there is now no difference between the Jew and the Greek. Then comes along the Calvinist claiming a difference.
MB

 

[Van]

And once again we see deflection rather than discussion.

Is the issue that God does predestine outcomes? Nope
Is the issue that God chose individuals before creation, thus predestining them for salvation? Yes

So if the election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, rather than individual, their is no support anywhere in scripture for individuals being predestined before creation for salvation.

Next, we had the attribute of God argument, since God knows all things, He "foreknew" who He would predestine to salvation. Nonsense. God knew beforehand those placed in Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ, and be raised (our adoption) at Christ's second coming.

Last, we get the redefinition of adoption to mean something other than the scriptural meaning, the redemption of our bodies, Romans 8:23.

 

[Scott Downey]

You know, I'm on a Christian board, and a Baptist one at that, and getting most people to deal with verses is like pulling teeth.
You've read the O.P. You've read the defining cross-references. Give me defining cross-references please, not pre-packaged theology.
Now, we have yet to be shown ONE verse that shows that predestination is unto salvation. Is it because there is no such verse?

This is about salvation of the person, as it ends in their glorification with Christ. it is also called the golden chain of redemption.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Justified by God means your sins are forgiven and your saved.

Romans 3 tells us what justification means, and it means their saved.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Dave G]

The thread is about predestination unto salvation.

George,
I think that this subject has been answered many times.

But to answer your OP, try these:

Romans 8:28-30.
Ephesians 1:4-11.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

If you're looking for one "verse" that states it unequivocally, I think that the best passage is 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
But "predestination to salvation" is based more on a composite of Scriptures than on any one thing that God has stated.

Also, strictly speaking, the verses that use the actual word "predestined / predestinated" are not speaking directly about salvation...
They are speaking in reference to being adopted as sons of God, His children ( Ephesians 1:5 ), predestinated to an inheritance ( Ephesians 1:11 ) incorruptible and undefiled, reserved in Heaven for them ( 1 Peter 1:4 ) and being predestinated as conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29 ).
In other words, benefits that accompany being chosen by Him to salvation.

It's all one "package".

So, whether or not you connect the two, the elect are "predestinated" ( that is, their destiny has been pre-assigned to them by God's choice of them to salvation...2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) to eternal life.



Now, here is where I have to ask, "Why do you keep posting threads about this subject?"...
As if some of us will answer things differently.
Based on past threads, it seems that you don't even agree with what is written on the page.
Case-in-point:
How do you interpret "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?

In this thread, I repeatedly tried to tell you that the words "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" meant, "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world."...
That they actually meant what they said.

Yet, you refused to accept the words as stated and kept attempting to "re-interpret" Ephesians 1:4 in the same manner as Revelation 13:8 is stating.
In other words ( and from my perspective ), you could not understand why Ephesians 1:4 states that God's choice of the sinner to salvation was made before the foundation of the world...
While in Revelation 13:8 ( "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" ) , the actual slaying of Christ took place in real time, while it was ordained to happen before creation ( 1 Peter 1:20 ).

So, because I see that the words of Ephesians 1:4 simply "bounced off", I see no reason to do anything other than present the Scriptures from here on out and see if you "get it".

If you don't, you don't.

You know, I'm on a Christian board, and a Baptist one at that, and getting most people to deal with verses is like pulling teeth.

I have the same problem...
I can't get @Revmitchell , @MB, @utilyan or @Van to give me a passage from the Bible, line by line and in their own words so that the reader can see where we agree and disagre in our understandings of said passages.

But, as I see it, we've tried dealing with verses already, George.
Dealing with the Scriptures seems to present a problem, since you don't even agree with the words on the page, at least in many cases.

Simply put, continuing to answer your questions from God's word doesn't seem to be doing any good.
Also, I don't see where I'm answering anything outside of how the words are written.

For the record, I'm not being froward...
I'm being matter-of-fact and standing firm on what I see in His word.

Regardless, if we don't see it the same way, we don't see it the same way.
There is nothing that can be done except to consign it all to the Lord, and to keep disagreeing.


May God bless you greatly, sir.

 

[MB]

This is about salvation of the person, as it ends in their glorification with Christ. it is also called the golden chain of redemption.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Justified by God means your sins are forgiven and your saved.

Romans 3 tells us what justification means, and it means their saved.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

What I find odd is that Calvinist must think God is illiterate Verse 22 says all who believe. If Salvation were for the so called elect alone why didn't He say all the elect. Isn't God wise enough to know Calvinist would need a way to prove what they believe and why?
MB

 

[Dave G]

I have the same problem with them showing me that Gentiles are elect.

I did that, MB...
At least twice.

But it seems you still do not see it.

The Bible says there is now no difference between the Jew and the Greek. Then comes along the Calvinist claiming a difference.

There is no difference, MB.
Both Jew and Gentile believers are elect.

" For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." ( Romans 10:12 ).

Since all who call upon the name of the Lord in truth ( Psalms 145:18 ) and from a pure heart ( 2 Timothy 2:22 ) are believers,
and since all believers are elect,
then Jews and Gentiles are elect,
if they've believed on Christ from the heart.

Please see Romans 3:21-30.
Romans 9:22-24.

What I find odd is that Calvinist must think God is illiterate Verse 22 says all who believe. If Salvation were for the so called elect alone why didn't He say all the elect. Isn't God wise enough to know Calvinist would need a way to prove what they believe and why?

What I find odd is that you claim to believe God's very words...

But when I presented a list of verses in another thread for you to prove this claim, I received no reply as to what you thought the verses meant.
I see them stating what they state.

"Calvinism" aside, I don't think that this should present a problem for you.
I also want to state up-front, that I seek no argument from you, MB...
Nor do I seek to ridicule you in any way.

Only for you to follow through on your claim that you actually believe God's words, and then to tell the reader what they state in your own words.
What I don't understand, is why you keep avoiding it.
Respectfully, I'm not trying to heckle you or otherwise malign you, sir.

I'm genuinely confused as to why you don't "exegete" the passages in order to show people how you understand the Scriptures, when you keep claiming to believe them.
What is it that you believe about them?

What they say?
Then please...tell us what they say.

Would it help if I posted the list again, for you to consider?

 

[Particular]

Of Saving Faith

PARAGRAPH 1

The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,1 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;2 by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened.3

1 2 Cor. 4:13; Eph. 2:8
2 Rom. 10:14,17
3 Luke 17:5; 1 Pet. 2:2; Acts 20:32

—

PARAGRAPH 2

By this faith a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself,4 and also apprehends an excellency therein above all other writings and all things in the world,5 as it bears forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit in his workings and operations: and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth consequently believed;6 and also acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,7 trembling at the threatenings,8 and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come;9 but the principle acts of saving faith have immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.10

4 Acts 24:14
5 Ps. 19:7-10, 69:72
6 2 Tim. 1:12
7 John 15:14
8 Isa. 116:2
9 Heb. 11:13
10 John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Gal. 2:20; Acts 15:11

—

PARAGRAPH 3

This faith, although it be in different stages, and may be weak or strong,11 yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers;12 and therefore, though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory,13 growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ,14 who is both the author and finisher of our faith.15

11 Heb. 5:13–14; Matt. 6:30; Rom. 4:19–20
12 2 Pet. 1:1
13 Eph. 6:16; 1 John 5:4–5
14 Heb. 6:11–12; Col. 2:2
15 Heb. 12:2

 

[Alcott]

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed ]throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires [Romans 9:16-18].

 

[Particular]

Of Adoption

PARAGRAPH 1

All those that are justified, God conferred, in and for the sake of his only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption,1 by which they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privileges of the children of God,2 have his name put on them,3 receive the spirit of adoption,4 have access to the throne of grace with boldness, are enabled to cry Abba, Father,5 are pitied,6 protected,7 provided for,8 and chastened by him as by a Father,9 yet never cast off,10 but sealed to the day of redemption,11 and inherit the promises as heirs of everlasting salvation.12

1 Eph. 1:5; Gal. 4:4–5
2 John 1:12; Rom. 8:17
3 2 Cor. 6:18; Rev. 3:12
4 Rom. 8:15
5 Gal. 4:6; Eph. 2:18
6 Ps. 103:13
7 Prov. 14:26; 1 Pet. 5:7
8 Heb. 12:6
9 Isa. 54:8–9
10 Lam. 3:31
11 Eph. 4:30
12 Heb. 1:14, 6:12

 

[Particular]

Of Divine Providence

PARAGRAPH 1

God the good Creator of all things, in His infinite power and wisdom does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things,1 from the greatest even to the least,2 by His most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will; to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.3

1 Heb. 1:3; Job 38:11; Isa. 46:10–11; Ps. 135:6
2 Matt. 10:29–31
3 Eph. 1; 11

—

PARAGRAPH 2

Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;4 so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;5 yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.6

4 Acts 2:23
5 Prov. 16:33
6 Gen. 8:22

—

PARAGRAPH 3

God, in his ordinary providence makes use of means,7 yet is free to work without,8 above,9 and against them10 at His pleasure.

7 Acts 27:31,44; Isa. 55:10–11 8 Hosea 1:7
9 Rom. 4:19–21
10 Dan. 3:27

—

PARAGRAPH 4

The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in His providence, that His determinate counsel extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men;11 and that not by a bare permission, which also He most wisely and powerfully binds, and otherwise orders and governs,12 in a manifold dispensation to His most holy ends;13 yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceeds only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.14

11 Rom. 11:32–34; 2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Chron. 21:1
12 2 Kings 19:28; Ps. 76:10
13 Gen. 1:20; Isa. 10:6–7,12
14 Ps. 1, Ps. 21; 1 John 2:16

—

PARAGRAPH 5

The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does often times leave for a season His own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends.15 So that whatsoever befalls any of His elect is by His appointment, for His glory, and their good.16

15 2 Chron. 32:25–26,31; 2 Cor. 12:7-9
16 Rom. 8:28

—

PARAGRAPH 6

As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin does blind and harden;17 from them He not only withholds His grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts;18 but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,19 and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;20 and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,21 whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God uses for the softening of others.22

17 Rom. 1;24–26,28, 11:7–8
18 Deut. 29:4
19 Matt. 13:12
20 Deut. 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12–13
21 Ps. 81:11,12; 2 Thess. 2:10–12
22 Exod. 8:15,32; Isa. 6:9–10; 1 Pet. 2:7–8

—

PARAGRAPH 7

As the providence of God does in general reach to all creatures, so after a more special manner it takes care of His church, and disposes of all things to the good thereof.23

23 1 Tim. 4:10; Amos 9:8–9; Isa. 43:3–5

 

[Aaron]

View attachment 3425 I ask you all to be as careful with terms as you can be. Our Calvinist brethren often denounce conflation of terms. We are not talking about election here. The thread is about predestination unto salvation. And please define terms with cross-references, not general one-liners.

You proved yourself wrong, knucklehead!

Being called, justified, sanctified and glorified IS salvation.

 

[Aaron]

Hey, watch everyone. Watch me pull a Georgie:

John 11:35 There's not one verse in the Bible about Jesus weeping. Prove me wrong! ​

 

[tyndale1946]

Hey, watch everyone. Watch me pull a Georgie:

John 11:35 There's not one verse in the Bible about Jesus weeping. Prove me wrong! ​

Georgie, Georgie, Georgie!... You had to go and let the big dog out didn't you?... I'm a watchdog but THAT dog will bite you... Brother Glen

 

[Dave G]

I ask you all to be as careful with terms as you can be. Our Calvinist brethren often denounce conflation of terms. We are not talking about election here. The thread is about predestination unto salvation. And please define terms with cross-references, not general one-liners.

With my previous post in mind, I think that your thread is based on this premise:

That you disagree with Psalms 65:4, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, John 6:29, John 6:37-40, John 6:64-65, John 8:43-47, John 10:26-27 and John 17:2, for starters.

So, what I'm seeing is that you don't actually believe that God chooses people to salvation, as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly states...
That you don't believe that the reason a person believes on Christ is because they were given to Christ by His Father ( John 6:37-40, John 6:64-65 )...
That you don't believe that the reason a person believes on Christ is because it was given to them to do so, by God in the behalf of Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ).

But that is for another thread.
To me, this thread exists because you're trying to argue that Scripture does not say what it says.

With that said, I'll answer the OP, and we can then look at what's actually being stated.

1) Romans 8:29:
" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Meaning ( with cross references ):

Those that were foreknown ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139, Romans 11:2 ) God also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son ( 1 Corinthians 15:49, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Philippians 3:21, Colossians 3:10, 1 John 3:2 ), so that He might be the first born among many brethren ( Isaiah 8:18, Ephesians 1:5, Colossians 1:15, Colossians 1:18, Hebrews 2:13, ).
This is not just about the believer's body, but of the believer in his or her entirety.
Body, soul and spirit.


2) Romans 8:30:
" Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Meaning ( with cross references ):

Those that were predestinated, He also called ( Romans 8:28, Romans 9:24, 1 Corinthians 1:9, 1 Corinthians 1:26, Galatians 1:6, Galatians 1:15, Galatians 5:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:14, Hebrews 9:15, 1 Peter 2:9, 1 Peter 3:9 ), and them He called, He also justified ( Romans 5:9-10, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:33, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Titus 3:7, Galatians 2:16-17, Galatians 3:24, Romans 4:25 ) and them He justified, He also glorified ( Romans 8:17, 2 Timothy 2:12 ).

Again, not about the believer's body, but their soul and spirit as well.


3) Ephesians 1:5:
" having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Meaning ( with cross references ):

Having predestinated us ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ) unto the adoption of children ( John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2, Luke 12:32, Romans 8:14, Galatians 3:26, John 1:12, Romans 8:16, Galatians 4:5 ) by Jesus Christ to Himself...according to the good pleasure of His will, not our own.

Not just the body, but the person as a whole.

4) Ephesians 1:11:
" in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: "

Meaning ( with cross references ):

In whom ( Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 1:4, Romans 8:1, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 6:15, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 12:20-27, Ephesians 4:12, Ephesians 4:25 ) we have obtained an inheritance ( Psalms 47:4, 1 Peter 1:4, Colossians 3:24 ) according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will ( Daniel 4:35, Romans 9:19, Psalms 115:3, Psalms 135:6, Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 40:17, Isaiah 43:13 ).

Why?

" that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. "
The predestination of the believer, body, soul and spirit, to be someone who spends eternity both loving and praising Him for His grace and mercy to them.

This abases man in the dust, and exalts God where He should be...
On His throne, and us before Him, thanking Him and rejoicing in his unspeakable gift.



May God be praised greatly, and may His blessings be upon all who read this.

 

[Reformed1689]

Romans 8. Foreknew, the elect, were predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. That IS a verse about predestination to Salvation. You can twist it all you want, it just makes you look foolish.

Where did your table come from anyway?

 

[Van]

On and on they copy post the same absurdities, listing verse after verse that do not say what is claimed.

Take just one verse, Ephesians 1:11, what was predestined? The inheritance applicable to everyone placed in Christ, and provides no support for being predestined to salvation.