Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

[Dave G]

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

That's fore-knowledge by definition. Now connect that to:

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

And you've got God foreknowing the wicked. See?

He does not know the wicked, intimately, like He knows His children.

David, a man after God's own heart, had this to say:
" A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked [person]." ( Psalms 101:4 )

In His holiness, neither will the Lord.
Solomon was inspired to write this:
" They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight." ( Proverbs 11:20 )

"For the froward [is] abomination to the LORD: but his secret [is] with the righteous." ( Proverbs 3:32 ).

God does not love a wicked person ( Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5 ).

Foreknowledge, by God's definition, is this:
" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." ( Jeremiah 1:5 ).

Just as the Lord knew Jeremiah, and ordained him to be a prophet, He also foreknew His childreen.
Each and every one of them.

 

[George Antonios]

If the sought after verse had been one stating that men are elect unto salvation, then you could simply provide:
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, of course, we would disagree on the timing and method of that choosing, but we would both agree that the concept of people chosen unto salvation is Biblically backed. I don't need a dozen verses (please flesh out your verses and connect them rather than simply listing references) to show that.

So now the question is: is there a verse describing a man being pre-destinated unto salvation? And the answer is no.
Otherwise you would have posted one as easily as 2Thessalonians 2:13 would have been supplied.
I'm not denying that comprehensiveness is important, I'm just pointing out that that concept of a man being predestinated unto salvation exists in the mind of Calvinists despite not one single verse thus stating - and this is not some minor doctrine.

 

[Reformed1689]

Still no defining cross-reference, only personal opinion.
(I wrote the table)

Then that explains the errors of the table. You are making connections that are improper and incorrect. I'm not wasting anymore time on this thread.

 

[George Antonios]

He does not know the wicked, intimately, like He knows His children.
David, a man after God's own heart, had this to say:

" A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked [person]." ( Psalms 101:4 )
In His holiness, neither will the Lord:

" They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight." ( Proverbs 11:20 )

Solomon was inspired to write this:
"For the froward [is] abomination to the LORD: but his secret [is] with the righteous." ( Proverbs 3:32 ).

Foreknowledge is this:

" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." ( Jeremiah 1:5 ).
Just as the Lord knew Jeremiah, and ordained him to be a prophet, He also foreknew His childreen.
Each and every one of them.

No one disagrees with the fact that there is a level of intimate knowledge connected to salvation.
The point is that "foreknowledge" is not always that kind of knowledge.
And, yet again, you did not deal with the connecting cross-references. You just brush them aside.

 

[George Antonios]

Then that explains the errors of the table. You are making connections that are improper and incorrect. I'm not wasting anymore time on this thread.

And yet again, another rejects the OP table without even explaining why with counter defining cross-references.
Your argument is that it's wrong just because I wrote it. That's your argument. Wow.

 

[Van]

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

That's fore-knowledge by definition. Now connect that to:

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

And you've got God foreknowing the wicked. See?

See the problem? No reference to any verse where the words are found!

What does Acts 15:18 say? God knows His future works? God knows all the works He has done from the beginning of the world? If so that is knowledge acquired or formulated in the past and being utilized in the present.

Does Proverbs 16:4 say God made all things for His purpose, including the wicked for the day of evil. Note how "made all things, including future things, is read into the text.

On and on they post verse after verse, but none actually support their bogus doctrine.

 

[Dave G]

The point is that "foreknowledge" is not always that kind of knowledge.

The point I'm making, is that "foreknowledge" should be defined strictly by God's words...
Not what we imagine might be the definition, or what we suspect it might mean.

We must bring every Scripture to bear, George, on any subject.

You've presented one passage that deals with "knowing"...
Do you know of others?
I do.

Psalms 139.
Jeremiah 1:5

That's only two.
I'm sure that there are more.

Let's use all of them, OK?

 

[37818]

And you've got God foreknowing the wicked. See?

Jesus said to the religous and lost, "I never knew you." -- Matthew 7:23.

 

[George Antonios]

Jesus said to the religous and lost, "I never knew you." -- Matthew 7:23.

This has already been answered above.

 

[George Antonios]

The point I'm making, is that "foreknowledge" should be defined strictly by God's words...
Not what we imagine might be the definition, or what we suspect it might mean.

We must bring every Scripture to bear, George, on any subject.

You've presented one passage that deals with knowing...
Do you know of others?

Psalms 139.
Jeremiah 1:5

Right, and I showed you only verses in the example of Acts 15:18.
You think all of God's works are foreknown in the salvific intimate sense? And all men are God's work.

 

[Scott Downey]

I am not a Calvinist and that is the meaning. God knows us whom He saves from His eternity. God cannot not have known us from His eternity. Those who do not obtain salvation He never knew (Matthew 7:21-23). And I hold the view point everyone's name starts out in His book of life.

If all people's names were written in His book of life from before the foundation of the world, then He foreknows them all, and all are predestined to be called, justified, glorified .
With what your saying you counter what God says in Romans 8:30. And noticed all the words are in the past tense, not present tense, as it is already a foregone conclusion, already done, over and out, cant add to the word or take away from it.

Romans 8:30 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

And by your saying that, you also dispute with God over Revelation 17, as it clearly says some names are not written in it from the start at the beginning.

And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Logically this is a lock on the scripture, and frankly if you keep holding to what you believe, your not very honest or discerning regarding reading comprehension, and if you change your mind to agree with scripture, then your going to be conflicted about many other of your understandings.

Your view on this is an example of a 'private interpretation' as it is in direct conflict with Rev 17

 

[Dave G]

This has already been answered above.

Then answer it according to God knowing someone, and the Lord Jesus telling them that He never knew ( foreknowledge ) them.

Romans 8:28-39 is not just about God knowing who will believe and who won't.
It's about God loving someone enough to send His Son to suffer and die for them on a cross, and to become their Mediator and Saviour.

Right, and I showed you only verses in the example of Acts 15:18.
You think all of God's works are foreknown in the salvific intimate sense? And all men are God's work.

Not exactly.
All men are God's work.
But the "works" being spoken of in Acts of the Apostles 15:18 are God's works of righteousness...

" After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:" ( Acts of the Apostles 15:16-19 )

Please read it again, George.
The context of who "the works" are, is developed right in the passage.

The believer, who believed when God "worked" ( John 6:29 ), is the "whosoever believeth" from John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, etc.
The same as Romans 9:22-24 develops, the same as Ephesians 2:10 develops, and the same as many other passages develop.
They are the same "works" who have had their names written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ).


Every believer in Christ is a work of righteousness, and a special work of His grace.

 

[George Antonios]

So guys, so far, no one has challenged the OP with opposite defining cross-references (as far as what a man is predestinated unto) and no one has provided a single verse where a man is predestinated unto salvation.
Let the readers look back and consider. That is the conclusion.

 

[Reformed1689]

And yet again, another rejects the OP table without even explaining why with counter defining cross-references.
Your argument is that it's wrong just because I wrote it. That's your argument. Wow.

No, the wrong argument is that you pick words out of the verses, ignoring the rest of the verse, and then make inferences upon those words that do not give the full scope of the text. Then you look at english words in other passages that match and rather than looking at context of the whole you make references that don't belong together.

 

[Reformed1689]

So guys, so far, no one has challenged the OP with opposite defining cross-references (as far as what a man is predestinated unto) and no one has provided a single verse where a man is predestinated unto salvation.
Let the readers look back and consider. That is the conclusion.

This is just nonsense. What do you think salvation is? Do any unbeliever's get conformed to the image of the son? NO. So if you are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son you are by necessity predestined to salvation.

 

[37818]

This has already been answered above.

I posted Matthew 7:23 twice. I missed the post. Please direct me to that post. Thank you.

Was this it?

No one disagrees with the fact that there is a level of intimate knowledge connected to salvation.
The point is that "foreknowledge" is not always that kind of knowledge.

 

[George Antonios]

I posted Matthew 7:23 twice. I missed the post. Please direct me to that post. Thank you.

Was this it?

Yes sir

 

[George Antonios]

This is just nonsense. What do you think salvation is? Do any unbeliever's get conformed to the image of the son? NO. So if you are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son you are by necessity predestined to salvation.

It's only non-sense because of the confounding of the terms salvation, predestination, election, and sanctification - which is odd since the Calvinists are ever pleading with us (with good reason) not to confound the terms.
Also because in your mind, all that stuff happens by an eternal decree in eternity past.

I would send you back, yet again, the OP, and to the defining cross-references.

"God foreknew that Bobby would get saved (1Pe.1:2, Ro.8:29) and, once Bobby got saved [wait, don't jump the gun], God fixed his destination to end up with a glorified resurrection body (Ro.8:29) in which he would praise God for ever (Eph.1:11-12). (You see, God could have chosen to save men without necessarily granting them a glorified body like his Son's or an inheritance in glory - but he did predestinate us believers to that).
That arrangement of things was foreordained of God before the foundation of the world. Voilà.
There is no predestination unto salvation anywhere."

Prove that interpretation wrong without simply listing references or quoting some creed.
Take it apart, with cross-references, flesh out the verses, show the problem with the words of the verses.

 

[37818]

If all people's names were written in His book of life from before the foundation of the world, then He foreknows them all, and all are predestined to be called, justified, glorified .
With what your saying you counter what God says in Romans 8:30. And noticed all the words are in the past tense, not present tense, as it is already a foregone conclusion, already done, over and out, cant add to the word or take away from it.

Romans 8:30 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

And by your saying that, you also dispute with God over Revelation 17, as it clearly says some names are not written in it from the start at the beginning.

And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Logically this is a lock on the scripture, and frankly if you keep holding to what you believe, your not very honest or discerning regarding reading comprehension, and if you change your mind to agree with scripture, then your going to be conflicted about many other of your understandings.

Your view on this is an example of a 'private interpretation' as it is in direct conflict with Rev 17

I think you do not understand. So let us sort this out. God is fully omniscient. Agreed?
God then knows before hand who He is going to save and who He is not going to save. Agreed?

Now the book of life is the determining factor who is going to be saved and not saved (Revelation 20:15). Agreed?

First reference to this book is Exodus 32:33. Agreed?

Little childeren who die before an age where they can come to faith in Christ are safe (Mark 10:14). Agreed?

Again, the book of life is the determining factor who is going to be saved (Revelation 20:15). Agreed?

 

[George Antonios]

No, the wrong argument is that you pick words out of the verses, ignoring the rest of the verse, and then make inferences upon those words that do not give the full scope of the text. Then you look at english words in other passages that match and rather than looking at context of the whole you make references that don't belong together.

Again, make your point. You're just opinionating so far. Show the problem with your own analytical breakdown.