Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

[Dave G]

On and on they copy post the same absurdities, listing verse after verse that do not say what is claimed.

Why not address it line by line, and verse by verse in your own words?
Let's see if your assertion is accurate.

Start with Ephesians 1:1 and develop it all the way to verse 13, please.
To me, this should pose no problem to you, sir.

Let the reader decide if you are understanding the passage, rather than simply taking your denial of what's been presented as fact...
without letting them see what's "under the hood".

Take just one verse, Ephesians 1:11, what was predestined? The inheritance applicable to everyone placed in Christ, and provides no support for being predestined to salvation.

Yet, Scripture as a whole, doesn't just begin and end with Ephesians 1:11.
So, don't take just one verse...
take them all as they are supposed to be read.

What is the context, Van?
Here it is:

What/ who was predestined?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" ( Ephesians 1:1 ).

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:" ( Ephesians 1:3 ).

"according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

The letter is written to...
see verse 1.
Those who are predestinated are...
see verse 4.

Those that were chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world.


All one has to do is simply believe what the words actually say, Van.
Where do you think I'm getting my understanding of it from, except from the words on the page?

Certainly not from John Calvin.

 

[utilyan]

Why not address it line by line, and verse by verse in your own words?
Let's see if your assertion is accurate.

Start with Ephesians 1:1 and develop it all the way to verse 13, please.
To me, this should pose no problem to you, sir.

Let the reader decide if you are understanding the passage, rather than simply taking your denial of what's been presented as fact...
without letting them see what's "under the hood".

Yet, Scripture as a whole, doesn't just begin and end with Ephesians 1:11.
So, don't take just one verse...
take them all as they are supposed to be read.

What is the context, Van?
Here it is:

What/ who was predestined?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" ( Ephesians 1:1 ).

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:" ( Ephesians 1:3 ).

"according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

The letter is written to...
see verse 1.
Those who are predestinated are...
see verse 4.

Those that were chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world.


All one has to do is simply believe what the words actually say, Van.
Where do you think I'm getting my understanding of it from, except from the words on the page?

Certainly not from John Calvin.

You got to read the whole letter. People ignore the phrase "IN CHRIST".

Because according to Ephesians 2 All those IN CHRIST NOW were not BEFORE.


Ephesians 2

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.



It is impossible to have been excluded from the promise, impossible not having hope, impossible without God in the world, if you were IN CHRIST since before creation.

 

[Iconoclast]

You know, I'm on a Christian board, and a Baptist one at that, and getting most people to deal with verses is like pulling teeth.
You've read the O.P. You've read the defining cross-references. Give me defining cross-references please, not pre-packaged theology.
Now, we have yet to be shown ONE verse that shows that predestination is unto salvation. Is it because there is no such verse?

In the OP. you try and suggest that only bodies are predestined....that sounds gnostic rather than Christian.
You are building on the wrong foundation and you assume your premises are correct, they are not.
You have not studied out the image bearer doctrine.
You do not understand biblical foreknowledge.
You do not understand rom8:29-30
You do not really seem to want an answer.

 

[Van]

Why not address it line by line, and verse by verse in your own words?
Let's see if your assertion is accurate.

Start with Ephesians 1:1 and develop it all the way to verse 13, please.
To me, this should pose no problem to you, sir.

Let the reader decide if you are understanding the passage, rather than simply taking your denial of what's been presented as fact...
without letting them see what's "under the hood".

Yet, Scripture as a whole, doesn't just begin and end with Ephesians 1:11.
So, don't take just one verse...
take them all as they are supposed to be read.

What is the context, Van?
Here it is:

What/ who was predestined?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" ( Ephesians 1:1 ).

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:" ( Ephesians 1:3 ).

"according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

The letter is written to...
see verse 1.
Those who are predestinated are...
see verse 4.

Those that were chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world.

All one has to do is simply believe what the words actually say, Van.
Where do you think I'm getting my understanding of it from, except from the words on the page?

Certainly not from John Calvin.

And the dance begins, do we look at Ephesians 1:11? Nope, we address the Calvinist context which misrepresents scripture according to man-made bogus doctrine.

The inability to understand the verses mentioned is mind-boggling.

Who is the "us" of Ephesians 1:4? Is it those corporately chosen before creation? Nope The "us" addresses those Paul was writing to, those who had been individually chosen and placed in Christ at that time. They had received the blessings, starting with being corporately chosen before creation, and (since they were in Christ) had been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, and to their bodily redemption.

No verse, not one actually supports the fiction of individual election before creation. OTOH, 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before creation because we were NOT a people before being chosen to be God's people. Simple, straightforward and true.

 

[Scott Downey]

And the dance begins, do we look at Ephesians 1:11? Nope, we address the Calvinist context which misrepresents scripture according to man-made bogus doctrine.

The inability to understand the verses mentioned is mind-boggling.

Who is the "us" of Ephesians 1:4? Is it those corporately chosen before creation? Nope The "us" addresses those Paul was writing to, those who had been individually chosen and placed in Christ at that time. They had received the blessings, starting with being corporately chosen before creation, and (since they were in Christ) had been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, and to their bodily redemption.

No verse, not one actually supports the fiction of individual election before creation. OTOH, 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before creation because we were NOT a people before being chosen to be God's people. Simple, straightforward and true.

No one is born saved. No one knows they will become a believer until God in His perfect timing for them places them in Christ.
That verse clearly says they are a chosen people whom God called out of darkness into His light. The verse certainly establishes foreknowledge and predestination.

Further on Peter tells them they are His lost sheep, and even identifies himself with their own selves as sheep of Christ.
24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Jesus specifically teaches this about His sheep. When His sheep hear the Shepherd they follow Him. None of these other sheep knew they were His sheep until Christ called them to Himself. John 10 teaches predestination of individuals who in actuality are the lost sheep of Christ, who God gives to Christ. The non sheep will never believe as they were not given to Christ by God as God did not predestine them and grant them to come to Christ. Refer John 6:28-70

John 10
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

 

[1689Dave]

View attachment 3425 I ask you all to be as careful with terms as you can be. Our Calvinist brethren often denounce conflation of terms. We are not talking about election here. The thread is about predestination unto salvation. And please define terms with cross-references, not general one-liners.

Don't these passages prove it true?

 

[InTheLight]

You have not studied out the image bearer doctrine.
You do not understand biblical foreknowledge.
You do not understand rom8:29-30
You do not really seem to want an answer.

#5

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[1689Dave]

Even Arminians believe in predestination to salvation. If God foreknows who will be saved, and then creates the universe that way, they are predestined to salvation.

 

[Van]

No one is born saved. No one knows they will become a believer until God in His perfect timing for them places them in Christ. [Non-issue]
That verse clearly says they are a chosen people whom God called out of darkness into His light. The verse certainly establishes foreknowledge and predestination. [No, quite the opposite, the passage establishes that they were not a people, thus they became a people when God chose them during their lifetime.]

Further on Peter tells them they are His lost sheep, and even identifies himself with their own selves as sheep of Christ.
24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. [Once again, this passage establishes those placed in Christ "turned to the Shepherd" i.e. placed their faith in Him.]

Jesus specifically teaches this about His sheep. When His sheep hear the Shepherd they follow Him. None of these other sheep knew they were His sheep until Christ called them to Himself. [His sheep, refers to those placed in Christ and belong to Christ.]

John 10 teaches predestination of individuals who in actuality are the lost sheep of Christ, who God gives to Christ. [No, there is nothing in the whole chapter that teaches predestination of individuals for salvation. Verses 1-6 teach those transferred into Christ become His Sheep, and they follow Him. Verses 7-10 teach those transferred into Christ has an intimate relationship with Christ, resulting in among other things abundant and eternal life.

Verses 11-18 teach Christ laid down His life for "the sheep" referring to mankind. He has "other sheep" which are the part of mankind (the sheep) that will become His sheep.

Verses 19-21 teach that "the Jews" were hearing Christ's words, and so the "other sheep"appears to refer to Gentiles. The Jews split, some rejecting Christ's words as "insane" but others took them to heart because Jesus has made the blind to see.

Verses 22-30 teach that among "the sheep" (all of mankind) are people who are "of My sheep." These are open to God's word and the gospel, they are the fields white for harvest, those that are receptive to the message of reconciliation through faith in Christ.]

The non sheep will never believe as they were not given to Christ by God as God did not predestine them and grant them to come to Christ. Refer John 6:28-70 [The order or sequence is wrong, believers are chosen and placed in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14]

 

[37818]

The saved are predestinted to be resurrected in a body like that of Christ.

Romans 8:29, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, . . ."

Epheians 1:4-5, ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, . . ."

Romans 8:23, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ."

 

[Iconoclast]

#5

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#28

 

[InTheLight]

#28

You have not studied out the image bearer doctrine.
You do not understand biblical foreknowledge.
You do not understand rom8:29-30
You do not really seem to want an answer.

This is not an argument, hence my use of #5 in my list of faulty arguments used by Calvinists.

#5. You are not smart enough to understand the doctrines of grace.

What does your #28 signify?

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[Van]

Once again we get ad hominem arguments, like suggesting a person does not grasp scripture because they are not indwelt. Or not understanding the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge" because they do not accept the Calvinist redefinition of the term.

As has been proven, there is no actual support for individuals being predestined from before creation for salvation, but instead there are verse after verse precluding the bogus assertion. God chose those who love God and are rich in faith, therefore during their lifetime and not before creation. James 2:5.

 

[George Antonios]

Romans 8. Foreknew, the elect, were predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. That IS a verse about predestination to Salvation. You can twist it all you want, it just makes you look foolish.

Where did your table come from anyway?

Still no defining cross-reference, only personal opinion.
(I wrote the table)

 

[InTheLight]

That is the error code when someone does not understand the biblical usage of the term foreknowledge,so they suggest Calvinists are saying they are not smart enough, when in reality it is a spiritual failure.

Like when Calvinists limit the definition of the word "foreknowledge" to mean God knowing a person.

 

[George Antonios]

So friends, reams of writing later, we're still waiting for a verse that says that a man is predestinated unto salvation.
The predestination verses were all defined/expounded with defining cross-references in the OP, which has been timidly challenged with simple utterances of disagreement.
No one has yet provided counter-defining cross-references relative to the OP.

 

[Dave G]

Like when Calvinists limit the definition of the word "foreknowledge" to mean God knowing a person.

Rather than bringing in that definition from somewhere outside of God's word, should we, as believers, be relying only on His word to develop that?

 

[George Antonios]

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

That's fore-knowledge by definition. Now connect that to:

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

And you've got God foreknowing the wicked. See?

 

[Dave G]

So friends, reams of writing later, we're still waiting for a verse that says that a man is predestinated unto salvation.

That was addressed, George.

Please see 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
combine what Ephesians 1:4-5 states, with Romans 8:289-30, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, John 6:37-44, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 and many others, including Psalms 65:4 and that's what I clearly see when a composite "picture" of the actual words is made.

Again, if you're looking for one, all-inclusive "verse" to say everything that it seems you're looking for, you're not going to find it.
That's where looking beyond "the verse" comes in.

Take it all, put it together, and that's where I get it.
Definitive statements that make me sit down and soberly look at what He has said, are why I believe what I do from the Scriptures.

 

[37818]

Like when Calvinists limit the definition of the word "foreknowledge" to mean God knowing a person.

I am not a Calvinist and that is the meaning. God knows us whom He saves from His eternity. God cannot not have known us from His eternity. Those who do not obtain salvation He never knew (Matthew 7:21-23). And I hold the view point everyone's name starts out in His book of life.