Featured Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

Eek. George, your posts are incoherent, as is your theology. Just being completely honest with you.

In verse 30 there is no setting apart predestination from called, justified and glorified. They are all mentioned together in an unbreakable sequence.

....whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

These are all based on God's foreknowledge, which is where the debate is. Even in verse 29 Paul says God predestined those He foreknew to be conformed to Christ "that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (emphasis mine) Brother, this is the second birth, born-again, salvation. It can't be denied. Christ is the firstborn among the rest who are born of God. IOW's the rest who are SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!

Even arminians don't deny this. It's too clear, too explicit.

 

I was not talking about Christ (just have to laugh) I was talking about the brethren who become his brothers by being born-again. Read brother, read.

Oy, George, you're a mess. You're so enthralled by your own theories, you can see the plain text. Please brother take a seat and study and learn before you speak out on these matters.

 

No, that's not what the firstborn term means. You don't even know the background of this term? And you're a teacher?

Firstborn does not mean born-again. It is a term of entitlement, meaning Christ was begotten, and entitled as the first begotten to his father's inheritance. We, as adopted sons born-again of God, become God's sons and Christ's brethren by adoption. He is not adopted. We need to be born-again. Christ does not.

 

Honestly, forget the table. Let's talk Scripture.

Christ is the firstborn, but not from his death. He is the firstborn of the dead, but not firstborn merely at his death. He is the firstborn coming into the world.

Heb. 1:6 And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,

“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”​

Just as we are not born-again merely at our death, but as soon as we believe.

We become children of God and brothers of Christ at our conversion which is now.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, ​

 

It's out of context erroneous cross references.

Your cross-references are confusing you. Go back to the Text alone. Firstborn of (not from or since). Christ was the firstborn coming into the world.

Paul's words are crystal clear. Your thesis is not.

 

Hope this was/will be fruitful.

 

Oh boy, so many ridiculous notions with this post.

 

What is it that Calvinist claim about not understanding scripture.
MB

 

Nonsense...you are going to any lengths to deny the truth.
All who are in the graves get a resurrection body;
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
No predestination is required for that.
The text says Whom , He did foreknow...You cannot ignore that and come anywhere near the truth.

 

Yes there is a resurrection of the wicked and the just. To be resurrected means to put life back into a body, so then raised up. The justified get a glorified body, but the wicked dont get a glorified body, but they do get a body. Where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched, everlasting shame and contempt reflects a ruined state for the resurrected body of the damned.

The Resurrection of the Wicked

 

This is just stupid. "without disproving the OP with defining cross-references"

You are expecting everyone to bow to your definitions, your cross-references and stick within YOUR framework. Sorry, no.

 

Gentlemen,
Please allow George to have his thread.

We've explained things ( some of them in a fair amount of detail ), and he does not agree.
Here are some of the details, and I've also included more as they come to mind:


Acts of the Apostles 13:48 <------ Those that were ordained ( appointed, determined, predestined ) to eternal life, believed. Individual election.

John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24 <------ Those that believe have ( not "will have" ) eternal life. "Eternal Security" because of...individual election. They have eternal life, because they were ordained to it. See Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

John 6:37-40 <---- Those that were given to the Lord Jesus by the Father shall come to Him. To "see" is to believe, spiritually. To come to Christ is to believe on Him, with the heart ( Romans 10:9-10 ). Only those given by the Father to Christ will come to Him, and, they shall be raised up at the last day.

John 6:64-65 <------ No one can come to Christ unless it is given by the Father to do so. Individual, unconditional election. Again, they must be ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ) in order to come to ( believe on ) Him.

Romans 8:29-30 <----- Those that were foreknown were predestinated conformed to the image of His Son...and only those that were foreknown. Those that were predestinated, were "called" by His Gospel ( 2 Thessalonians 2:14 ), those that were called were justified ( Romans 5:9, Romans 8:33 ) and those that were justified were glorified ( Romans 8:17, Philippians 3:21 )...the "golden chain of redemption", as some call it. Again, individual and unconditional election based on God knowing someone before they were born ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139, Galatians 1:15-16 ), not just knowing about their choices.

He has loved each and every one of His elect with an everlasting love, just as He did for Jeremiah ( Jeremiah 31:3 ) and drawn them ( John 6:44 ) with loving kindness.
Truly, we love him, because He first loved us ( 1 John 4:19 ).



All of this dovetails neatly with Revelation 13:8, which tells us that the people who worship the "beast" were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world, but that they will wonder at him. Again, Revelation 17:8 tells us that their names were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world and that they will behold the "beast" and wonder...

But that we as believers are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 )
Which connects with the believer being predestined to an interitance ( Ephesians 1:11 ) that is incorruptible, undefiled and reserved in Heaven for them ( 1 Peter 1:4 ).

I have answered the OP in detail in post # 38, and his reply in post # 63 was to ask us to "flesh things out" with references...
I'm not sure why the references that I gave weren't satisfactory, as I think that anyone reading them and believing the very words should be able to see how they applied to my points.
As it is, I doubt there is anything more that can be said...


It will have to be enough.

 

By way of general commentary, which is made not to critique but to share similar experiences, I'd warn you against standing your ground with what you think absolutely proves your position - Scriptures have a way of reconciling what is seemingly contradictory and we must let God reveal His ways through time and others. When you throw down the gauntlet and keep declaring victory until proven wrong, don't you find it more combative and missing brotherly love?

I've been an arminian, then a calvinist and now I hold a position of Single Predestination which reconciles both (it's debated on another thread here). The idea is that if God has preserved true believers in each of the two groups, then there must be truth in both camps - it cannot be an all-or-nothing approach for either. So, it would help us all to keep an open mind in considering how and why the other interprets Scriptures the way they do.

And as an approach, many here have already pointed out your missing of the forest for the trees when you simply do word associations without considering the basic meanings of words which have been commonly accepted by all - calvinist and anti-calvinist. I mean, don't you find it odd that no theological system that's stood the test of time (calvinist, arminian etc.) have ever interpreted "adoption" to be different from "salvation" by understanding adoption = redemption of bodies?

 

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Your position from this verse is that adoption = redemption of our body.

I simply know from common language that adoption does not mean that - when I adopt a child, I'm not redeeming its body. You'd argue against man's dictionaries. So I head to Strong's NT dictionary -
G5206 uihothesia - From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).

The word uihothesia is a compound of G5207 uihos meaning Son and G5087 tithēmi meaning To Place, literally and figuratively. This aligns perfectly with my common language knowledge too, since when I adopt a child, I am 'Placing as Son/Daughter' this child.

If this isn't enough, I'll persist -

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

v.1-3 show that for a time, we are servants in bondage to the law - just like a child having to grow up to the appointed time set by the father to assume heirship without the need for tutors and governors. Until such time, there is no difference between the heir and the servant - the heirship is not fully realized yet. But v.4-5 has an end of that time, Christ Himself redeeming us from under the servant bondage to the law so that we may receive the adoption, the Placing of Sons and Daughters, the heirship realized.

Now as per your interpretation of v.5, we were redeemed from under the law so that our bodies may be redeemed.
As per my interpretation, we were redeemed from under the law so that we may be placed as sons/daughters.

Which of these lead on consistently to v.6-7 ?
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

my interpretation - given that in v.5 we are placed as sons, v.6 has God sending us the Spirit of His Son, and we are enabled to cry out Abba Father, as sons do. And now we are no longer the same as the v.1 servant, but an heir because we are sons.
your interpretation - what's the connection between v.5 'redemption of our bodies' and v.6 'because ye are sons'? Where's the word association in cross-references?

Do you see the dependence of God sending the Spirit of His Son, on us having to be made sons - if we're not made sons, then no Spirit and no crying out Abba Father. And do you see we cannot be made sons unless we are redeemed from bondage under the law. These are events that happen now in the believer's life - not after the final resurrection. We are redeemed now from the law, we receive the adoption now to be sons, and so we receive the Spirit now so that we can call out to God as our Abba Father - now, and not at the end of times. Doesn't this directly contradict your interpretation of redemption of bodies at the end of times?

How do I read Rom 8:23 -
"Not only all creation but we ourselves groan waiting..."
where has Paul referenced the waiting of all creation -
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
What are they waiting for - the manifestation, the revealing(ESV) of the adoption. See how this fits perfectly with Strong's definition of Adoption=Placed Sons.

Consequently I read Rom 8:23 as "Not only all creation but we ourselves groan waiting for the manifestation of the adoption". And this perfectly fits with "manifestation of the adoption" = "redemption of our bodies". See how it's completely consistent with Adoption=Placed Sons.
On the other hand, as per your interpretation comparing equal parts of v.19 and v.23, what is the word association between "sons of God" in v.19 and "redemption of our bodies" in v.23? See how you've ignored simple grammatical devices to build up an entire doctrine that anyway is contradicted in Gal 4..

And to conclude this really long post (which I usually don't do and apologize for not taking the efforts to split up), since it's been shown from Gal 4 that adoption must mean placing as sons in the here and now for a believer and given the reconciliation of Rom 8 redemption of our bodies to be the manifestation of the adoption at the end of times, we now must revisit Eph 1:5.

If we were predestinated to the adoption, then by definition God predestinated us to be placed Sons. And we know from Gal 3:26, that we become Sons only by faith in Christ Jesus. So if God predestinated something that was dependent on another thing, it follows God must've predestinated the dependency too - implying God predestinated our faith too. And it's undisputed that whosoever has faith, has salvation - therefore God has predestinated our salvation.

This is pretty conclusive and I've been faithful to Scriptures and in intent too - I hope you find it in you to agree. Again, this doesn't prove all your beliefs are wrong - I too don't agree with the calvinists when they say God doesn't make a genuine offer of salvation to the non-elect, which is why I hold Single Predestination as the only faithful interpretation of Scriptures.