God chastens those who have become children of God. If we are disobedient, we do not become non-children of God but God will chasten us because we are His children.
You have it quite backwards.
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Prove it.
- Thread starter Amy.G
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God chastens those who have become children of God. If we are disobedient, we do not become non-children of God but God will chasten us because we are His children.
You have it quite backwards.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are reading something into this passage that is not there. You say GOD will not waste time chastening heathens [unbelievers], those he calls bastards; yet you then say that those who will not endure chastening are not sons even though they are GOD's. Are they GOD's or are they not? Make up your mind! If they belong to GOD then GOD will keep them ETERNALLY SECURE. That is the clear teaching of Scripture which you reject. Consider Romans 8:30:
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
How does GOD consider glorified those HE has justified unless HE keeps them ETERNALLY HIS?
Those who believe that GOD cannot keep those who belong to HIM ETERNALLY SECURE do not believe in the GOD revealed in Scripture. That is the sad truth.
I am glad that you think so highly of me. But the truth is I deserve nothing but eternal condemnation from God. I am not worthy or deserving to be his heir, his child, to reign with him, to be seated in the heavenlies, to have my name written in the Lamb's Book of Life, to have a promise of a mansion being prepared for me, for the Almighty God promise never to leave me nor forsake me, and so many more promises from him. I am not worthy of these. What have I done to be worthy or deserving of so great privileges--nothing! I am a sinner. Yes I have been saved by grace, but is all God's grace; nothing that I have ever done to merit anything. It is God's salvation; he paid the penalty for my sin. I had no part in it. It is God's gift of eternal life. It is all of God. I deserve nothing but eternal condemnation. If I got what I deserved I would spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire. It is only by God's grace that I will gain anything better than that.
This verse doesn't say that I am worthy. It is a command to walk worthy of the vocation that I am called to. But I am not worthy even to be in that vocation. It is only by God's grace that he picked me up, set me down, and made me what I am today--a vessel of honor able, by his grace to serve him. The Lord willing, I hope to be "of worth" in his service to bring glory and honor to his name.
Can you not differentiate between verbs and nouns?
Again it doesn't say that I am worthy. I am not.
It tells me to walk worthy. Be of worth; be pleasing; be fruitful; be increasing in the knowledge of God. It does not say that I am worthy; that I am pleasing; that I am fruitful; that I am increasing in knowledge. No, not at all.
"that ye may be counted worthy" Again it doesn't say I am worthy or ever will be. "To be counted worthy" is an entirely different thing. Here is what verse four says:
2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
--It is speaking of our patience and faith in persecutions and tribulatons which we endure. In that context the word "worthy" may be translated "fitting" or "suitable." Going through these tribulations will make us more fit or suitable for the Kingdom of for which also we suffer. It has nothing to do with a status of worthiness. No one is worthy in God's sight. That is an arrogant statement to make.
Again the wrong context; the wrong usage.
He didn't say we are worthy. He said that God would count you worthy of this calling; that is that he would count you fit or suitable for the work that he has for us.
No one is worthy. We deserve hell. We deserve eternal damnation. If it weren't for God's grace He could never count us deserving to do his will. We don't deserve it. We don't deserve to be called his children. We don't deserve to do his bidding. It is all of grace.
I hope you get it by now.
When I chastened my son, whether he endured it or not he still remained my son. The fact is that he always endured. How does a person not endure?
The word "chastening" simply means discipline. If a child is given a spanking for example, how does he not endure?
Your question is nonsensical.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
DreamSlayer
New Member
"It is impossible," wrote the author of Hebrews, "for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace" (Heb. 6:4-6).
The usual way out of this knotty problem is to say that these are not truly born-again disciples. They are false professors, tares among the wheat. J. C. Ryle, for example, writes, "The person here described as falling away has no characteristics which may not be discovered in unconverted men, while it is not said that he possesses saving faith and charity, and is elect."19 But the text does say these people have "shared in the Holy Spirit," which certainly sounds as if they were Christians. Besides that, these warnings are against "falling away," a misnomer if they never attained the position from which to fall. - Steve Jones
Hebrews 10 : 28-29 "Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
The text declares that someone can be "sanctified" by "the blood of the covenant" and still fall from the faith. - Steve Jones
The usual way out of this knotty problem is to say that these are not truly born-again disciples. They are false professors, tares among the wheat. J. C. Ryle, for example, writes, "The person here described as falling away has no characteristics which may not be discovered in unconverted men, while it is not said that he possesses saving faith and charity, and is elect."19 But the text does say these people have "shared in the Holy Spirit," which certainly sounds as if they were Christians. Besides that, these warnings are against "falling away," a misnomer if they never attained the position from which to fall. - Steve Jones
Hebrews 10 : 28-29 "Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
The text declares that someone can be "sanctified" by "the blood of the covenant" and still fall from the faith. - Steve Jones
"Well, I believe I can differentiate.
Can you?
'Worthy' in every instance in your post is an adjective, and is neither a noun or a verb. (By contrast, "worth" and "worthiness" are nouns.) While "worthy" can be (and occasionally is) correctly used as a noun, the former is used but little, and the latter is extremely rare, being generally obsolete, thus the bulk of today's usage is that of an adjective, as is the case, here."
"[Sigh!]
"Signed, Language Cop
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Marcia
Active Member
What about this?
The above does not mean an unbeliever with a believing spouse is saved, or that children of believers are automatically saved.
Dr J Vernon McGee Q&A - Hebrews 6 Is it Possible to Lose Your Salvation? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjvkUA2wv8Q&feature=related I am amazed when someone brings up this passage and never read the REST of the context! Paul gives an example of what he is referring too. The late Dr McGee and Tony Evans agree this is what Hebrews is talking about.
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If this has already been mentioned, it is worth mentioning again. If not, then it is necessary to this discussion. We must recognize what Jesus Christ himself taught to be the definition of a 'true christian':
"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." (The Gospel According to St. Matthew 13:16-23,NIV)
There are those who hear the word of salvation, and ridicule it. There are those who hear the word of salvation, and ignore it. There are those who hear the word of salvation, and try to add their own rules to it. There are those who hear the word of salvation, and devise ways to subvert it to more easily achieve their goal of personal power and wealth. There are those who hear the word of salvation, and conspire to reduce it to the status of an icon, supporting their beliefs and their agendas.
And then there are those who hear the word of salvation, and accept it as it is offered. They admit their shortcomings. They realize that they are undeserving of salvation, but have earned for themselves only condemnation. They realize that God the Father himself has laid out the plan for their salvation, and together with his son Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements necessary for that salvation to be realized. They realize that none of us have any reason to boast; we have done nothing, while God has done all to merit our salvation. They accept the gift of salvation, and are genuinely grateful to God for the gift. These are the people who can indeed be called by the name 'Christians'. And they will persevere through any and all that the world may throw at them, for God himself is their guide and their protection.
"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." (The Gospel According to St. Matthew 13:16-23,NIV)
There are those who hear the word of salvation, and ridicule it. There are those who hear the word of salvation, and ignore it. There are those who hear the word of salvation, and try to add their own rules to it. There are those who hear the word of salvation, and devise ways to subvert it to more easily achieve their goal of personal power and wealth. There are those who hear the word of salvation, and conspire to reduce it to the status of an icon, supporting their beliefs and their agendas.
And then there are those who hear the word of salvation, and accept it as it is offered. They admit their shortcomings. They realize that they are undeserving of salvation, but have earned for themselves only condemnation. They realize that God the Father himself has laid out the plan for their salvation, and together with his son Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements necessary for that salvation to be realized. They realize that none of us have any reason to boast; we have done nothing, while God has done all to merit our salvation. They accept the gift of salvation, and are genuinely grateful to God for the gift. These are the people who can indeed be called by the name 'Christians'. And they will persevere through any and all that the world may throw at them, for God himself is their guide and their protection.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: And what does that prove? Oh, I almost forgot. Birds of like feather DO stick together. It certainly by no means has anything necessarily to do with establishing truth.
Good response HP!
Instead of having the ability to refute what McGee says you just slam them, and exalt yourself as a higher authority than they are. We are to take your word over theirs even though you can't present a shred of evidence to demonstrate that your position is Biblical.
You haven't said a word why we should dismiss their teaching.
You haven't given any reason, any refutation whatsoever.
Your answer to McGee:
"Birds of feather of flock together."
Must be the most intelligent refutation I have ever heard in a debate. Can you do any better?
"Must be the most intelligent refutation I have ever heard in a debate. Can you do any better?" DHK I couldn't have said it better myself! :wavey:
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