Prove it.

[Martin Luther]

No, not at all.
I would never be so arrogant and full of pride as to pray such a prayer. The fact is that I can never be found worthy of the blood he shed for me (us). I am totally unworthy. That is why it is called grace, and why salvation is by grace through faith. I am not worthy. He is providing something I do not deserve, will never deserve, cannot deserve, am not worthy of and never will be. I praise and thank him, that though I am unworthy he provided salvation through his blood anyway.

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You were not worthy before Christ, but through Obedience to Christ you become worthy.


Ephesians 4:1
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,


Colossians 1:10
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:


2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Revelation 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


Revelation 19:8
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

[Martin Luther]

John 10:27-29
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

They are His sheep, they are in His hand, they are in God's hand, and God will keep them in His hand. It is that simple.

And that is 100% true for those who remain obedient.

 

[Martin Luther]

What things is Jesus talking about? Worthy to escape what?
What things will come to pass?
I can tell you He's not talking about salvation here.

Amy, this is a dangerous statement. Christ was talking of those who would be alive at the end this age. He most certainly is talking about salvation.

This is addressed to the church in Ephesus, not to an individual and it's not about removing one's salvation. Although the Lord had some good things to say about this church, He says they have fallen away from the works they did at first. They have lost their zeal and if they do not repent He will remove His Spirit from that church, not revoke individual salvation.

Christ makes it clear for all the churches that their salvation is at stake lest they reform. Any member of any church can have anyone of the issues mentioned by Christ in Revelation 2 & 3. He commands them to walk worthy and that luke warmness will not be tolerated by those who follow Him. Not once does he mention faith, it is ALL about obedience/works. Sin is a choice we STILL can make. You are not safe until you finish your race in faith and obedience to Christ. It is a deception to think God owes you salvation because you ask Jesus into your heart. Faith is action, faith is obedience.



Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


The reward here is not a gold crown, but the reward IS eternal life with Christ.

 

[Martin Luther]

I am not a dispensationalist but the difference it makes is that you are incorrect, just as you are in most of your responses on this thread. You have yet to post one Scripture that proves that God cannot keep Eternally Secure those who are His..

God CAN and WILL keep those who are obedient.

Scripture teaches throughout that man is justified by faith. That is a fact. Simply note what James states in Verse 2:23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Now why was righteousness imputed to Abraham? Because he believed God. I realize that some will scream that I am taking this passage out of context. That is incorrect since James is simply repeating the truth taught in Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

I will agree that Salvation produces obedience. The Apostle Paul states this in Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If we read the first 9 verses of Ephesians 2 we see that salvation is only by the Grace of God: Nothing else. Those who contend otherwise are making a lie out of Scripture and are invalidating the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Incidentally I believe Amy has refuted the statement referring to her as I would expect.

I do not deny that in my pre-Christ condition that I was unworthy of Him. It seems like you are really struggling to be right about something. How can you deny the verse that states Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Did God not pen this verse also? Do you deny what this verse clearly implies? Salvation in Christ is Obedience to Him.

 

[Martin Luther]

The author of Hebrews seems to think that there is a chance that these christians could do the same as those in the wilderness.

Heb 4:7

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."NKJV

The whole letter speaks this language.

Heb 2:1
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.NKJV

Heb 3:6

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
NKJV

Heb 3:12-15

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."NKJV

Heb 4:1
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.NKJV

Heb 4:11
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.NKJV

Now Hebrews 5:11 shows that the author is speaking to Christians:
Heb 5:11-12
of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
NKJV

This can be seen through out the whole letter, it is warning to not be like those in the wilderness, if it were not possible for those who belong to God to harden their hearts and turn from God then why does the whole letter give attention to the possiblity. If there were no possibilities of falling then why all these warnings?

Is he warning none christians to not fall away from something they do not have?

Is the author worried that non christians will harden their hearts and not enter the rest?

If those who are of the house of Jesus (3:6) could never fall away then why does the author tell them "hold fast the confidence" and "firm to the end" if it was not possible?

How can one who is not of the Lord depart from the Lord if he never had the Lord? 3:12

If one is a partaker of Christ, why the need to hold fast till the end, if it was not possible that this could happen? 3:14

Why would he quote "Do not harden your hearts" to partakers of Christ? 3:15

I could go on within the context, but if the post is to long then I run the chance of it not being read. This is plain as can be, there is enough right here to show that falling away is possible. This is only the first 5 chapters there are still many more.

The logic is so simple you wonder how someone could miss it. Good post brother.

 

[Martin Luther]

What I meant was (and I think you already know this) there is no work or payment for me to do. God requires faith. Faith is not a work.

Absolutely not true Amy.

John 3:19-21

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.



All I hear is people throwing this faith word around like its some magical thought that instantly makes you a permanent child of God. Salvation has always been a turning from sin unto truth and light.



James 2:18-20

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Amazing isn't it, the devils BELIEVE and yet are still doomed?

 

[annsni]

And that is 100% true for those who remain obedient.

Have you ever worked with sheep? They are not obedient. One strays yet the Shepherd Himself goes and brings him back. He doesn't wait for the sheep to walk back to the fold.

 

[Martin Luther]

Have you ever worked with sheep? They are not obedient. One strays yet the Shepherd Himself goes and brings him back. He doesn't wait for the sheep to walk back to the fold.

Hebrews 12:7

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

 

[OldRegular]

Hebrews 12:7

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Miracle of Miracles! You finally got something correct. If we, as GOD's children are disobedient, HE will chasten us. HE does not declare that we are no longer His children and cast us into the lake of fire. HE deals with us as SONS. HE will always deal with us as SONS.

Congratulations ML! Perhaps you have inadvertently arrived at the truth!

 

[Martin Luther]

Miracle of Miracles! You finally got something correct. If we, as GOD's children are disobedient, HE will chasten us. HE does not declare that we are no longer His children and cast us into the lake of fire. HE deals with us as SONS. HE will always deal with us as SONS.

Congratulations ML! Perhaps you have inadvertently arrived at the truth!

And what IF we do not endure chastening.....

 

[annsni]

And what IF we do not endure chastening.....

Who says we don't endure it? Can you show me where there's a chance that we don't endure? What it's saying is if we don't go through chastening, then we are not children of God. It doesn't say that if we choose not to be chastened - because we cannot do that. God chastens. Period.

7It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[Martin Luther]

Who says we don't endure it? Can you show me where there's a chance that we don't endure? What it's saying is if we don't go through chastening, then we are not children of God. It doesn't say that if we choose not to be chastened - because we cannot do that. God chastens. Period.

7It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

No. it literally is NOT saying that at all. IT says in plain English, IF you endure the chastening THEN God deals with you as sons. You can still fail. I'm sorry the English language is so hard to understand but If means something may not happen.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ML, though one might pound one refusing to see that which should be plainly understood in a mortar with a pestle, they will not depart from their unfounded presuppositions.

I say that, yet the greatest revival of religion this nation has ever seen came out of a very similar camp when a few godly men had the light of truth shed upon their hearts by the Holy Spirit and accepted it as the truth and proclaimed it. Who knows, some of those so adamently opposed to the truth on this list might be some God uses to start another revival! May it be so!:godisgood:

 

[Martin Luther]

ML, though one might pound one refusing to see that which should be plainly understood in a mortar with a pestle, they will not depart from their unfounded presuppositions.

I say that, yet the greatest revival of religion this nation has ever seen came out of a very similar camp when a few godly men had the light of truth shed upon their hearts by the Holy Spirit and accepted it as the truth and proclaimed it. Who knows, some of those so adamently opposed to the truth on this list might be some God uses to start another revival! May it be so!:godisgood:

Absolutely, the Truth is amazing. It has an incredible way of energizing those whom it touches. It yields great power and it cannot be refuted!

 

[OldRegular]

And what IF we do not endure chastening.....

Read the entire passage ML.

Hebrews 12:6-11
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Your question is beyond ridiculous. You will go to any extreme in an attempt to deny Scripture. Have you ever been chastened, by your earthly father or your heavenly Father?

GOD will chasten those HE loves. All those HE loves will be chastened [verses 7, 8]. If you are not chastened then you are not a son. Read the passage carefully to ensure that you are within the faith.

 

[OldRegular]

Absolutely, the Truth is amazing. It has an incredible way of energizing those whom it touches. It yields great power and it cannot be refuted!

The truth is amazing. Sadly so many reject the truth. Consider the following TRUTH which you obviously reject: Philippians 1:6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

That good work is Salvation by Grace, the good work that was started by GOD. GOD will continue to perform that good work until the day of Jesus Christ. That is, until Jesus Christ returns.

You apparently want a god who is not really God but must depend on man to keep that which HE cannot. Pathetic!

 

[Martin Luther]

Read the entire passage ML.

Hebrews 12:6-11
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Your question is beyond ridiculous. You will go to any extreme in an attempt to deny Scripture. Have you ever been chastened, by your earthly father or your heavenly Father?

GOD will chasten those HE loves. All those HE loves will be chastened [verses 7, 8]. If you are not chastened then you are not a son. Read the passage carefully to ensure that you are within the faith.

This issue was not about a lack of chastening. It is a foregone conclusion that God would not waste any time on a heathen and he calls those bastards. Everyone who is Gods receives chastisement but only those who endure it will be considered sons. The verse is very clear.

 

[annsni]

No. it literally is NOT saying that at all. IT says in plain English, IF you endure the chastening THEN God deals with you as sons. You can still fail. I'm sorry the English language is so hard to understand but If means something may not happen.

HUH?? So if I chasten another child, they're mine?

I don't understand how you can get that misunderstanding from that passage at all. If we are sons and daughters, we are chastened. Period. End of story.

Read verse 6 again:

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

The Lord chastens=he loves
Son=scourge

No chastening or scourging? No child of God.

 

[Martin Luther]

The truth is amazing. Sadly so many reject the truth. Consider the following TRUTH which you obviously reject: Philippians 1:6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

That good work is Salvation by Grace, the good work that was started by GOD. GOD will continue to perform that good work until the day of Jesus Christ. That is, until Jesus Christ returns.

You apparently want a god who is not really God but must depend on man to keep that which HE cannot. Pathetic!

Again that is 100% true as long as we are obedient.



Let's see what God has to say about the matter:

John 15:4-6

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[Martin Luther]

No chastening or scourging? No child of God.

That is correct but that's not what we are talking about. Try to focus. God only chastens those that follow Him, those who endure through the chastening then God will deal with as sons. Try YLT:




Hebrews 12:7 (Young's Literal Translation)

7if chastening ye endure, as to sons God beareth Himself to you, for who is a son whom a father doth not chasten?