This difference in God's seal and a downpayment that I make for a car is this.....I am responsible for making the payments on my car until the debt is paid, but regarding salvation, Christ has already paid the full debt owed. I don't have to pay anything. My sin debt is zero. There is nothing for me to do. God paid the fine and God sealed me and He will keep me until the day He redeems me.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Prove it.
- Thread starter Amy.G
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Repentance and faith. Now you tell me what you think.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
.
HP: Christ has paid the debt for all the sins of the world, even if a single soul does not believe. Certainly I agree that we never have to, nor would it atone for a single sin even if we could, ‘pay for anything.’ To suggest, as has been done so many times, that conditions imply payment is a complete farce without the slightest evidence.
Such a view as you present here simply ignores the conditions placed upon your redemption. If one does not do ‘anything,’ as you claim one does not have to, no one will never be redeemed. God indeed calls upon man to do something, NOT to pay something for a debt, for neither repentance, faith, or continued obedience could merit ones salvation. God calls upon man to first repent and then believe, and to continue in obedience until the end, ‘without which’ no one shall see God. Again there is not the slightest hint of merit or payment in the fulfilling of any or all of those conditions.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I thought it was W = F x D
Martin Luther
New Member
Amy, Christ was very clear here, this man had been FORGIVEN, and because he refused to forgive, as we all told to, he lost his forgiveness.
Matthew 18:32-35
32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 18:32-35
32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
No I think my definition of works is very clear. Works equals Force times distance. I don't know how that applies to salvation but its pretty clear what works are. :smilewinkgrin:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: No math. English only please:thumbs:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Work = Force times Distance and depending on what you're trying to do you can insert cosign or angle.
HP: No math. English only please:thumbs:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You are thinging the 'wrong stuff' for this thread:smilewinkgrin:
Martin Luther
New Member
What I meant was (and I think you already know this) there is no work or payment for me to do. God requires faith. Faith is not a work.
You are saying that returning to your first works means you have to be saved again.
Doesn't Hebrews say this is impossible?
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
There is no way to be saved a second time.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Faith requires an act of the will the same as any and every work, period. “Faith without works” is NOT addressing conditions of salvation but the grounds of salvation. It is saying nothing we can or ever could do has the merit or ability to make salvation possible, for the grounds of salvation have nothing to do with man or his efforts but rather are founded in the grace and mercy of God in spite of anything or everything we do.
It is NOT suggesting that there is nothing for man to do in acquiring salvation, for without the ‘first works’ of repentance and faith as well as the condition of continued obedience, no one will be saved.
Please explain Heb. 6:4-6 in light of this post.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
HP: I will give it a try. Whatever it means it certainly does not negate in any way the numerous warnings of making shipwreck of the faith, and the many times it is clear that if one does unless the Holy Spirit is withdrawn we can indeed be renewed in our faith towards Christ.
That being said, some feel that this verse should be translated “that have fallen away” not 'if' they shall fall away. Beza was the one that supposedly added the word “if” in this verse which most translators agree is simply not in the original text. Dr. Macknight confirmed this to be true, and was himself a Calvinist. He obviously was a fair and decent man that was more true to establishing the truth than he was finding support for his own dogma of OSAS.
The first thing that can be established is that not only is it possible but it is a fearful thing to fall away from ones faith. When one rejects outright the only sacrifice for sin, salvation is impossible regardless if they repent or not. Repentance is the first step in salvation, but it does not in and of itself save anyone. Even if one repented, as Saul attempted to in the OT, if the sacrifice itself has been rejected, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin.
This passage seems to indicate one that has rejected, turned from the Messiah as did the Jews, believing Him to be an imposter, as did the Jews, crucifying Him to themselves, i.e., being willing to join in with those that murdered Him, if given the chance. This passage speaks of a total and complete rejection of Jesus Christ, and there is no salvation possible, or any return to a proper standing with God, in such a state.
Again, it in no wise suggests or implies that one cannot fall away from their faith, and in the end be renewed. It is only impossible IF they reject the only sacrifice made which makes salvation possible.
Marcia
Active Member
Marcia
Active Member
Rom 2 is addressing those who try to keep the law and think they will get to heaven that way. Paul is showing them that they unless they obey everything perfectly (which is impossible), they are doomed.
In Rom. 1, Paul shows that all are accountable but have turned away from God. Rom. 2 shows that all have a conscience, put there by God, so they know there is a right and wrong. It also shows that the law is something no one can follow, so they are doomed.
No one can be saved apart from grace -- that is the point of all this and the point of the whole book of Romans. You are taking this out of context and not comparing scripture with scripture.
If you think you are being saved because you are being obedient, you will be rendered according to your deeds, which will be eternal death, because no one's deeds can justify them for salvation.
Last edited by a moderator:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Excellent thought. Oh God, help me to be found worthy of the blood you shed for us! Should that not be the prayer of every born again believer?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Marcia, do you enjoy fighting as one beats the air? Why don’t you attack something someone really believes??
No, not at all.
I would never be so arrogant and full of pride as to pray such a prayer. The fact is that I can never be found worthy of the blood he shed for me (us). I am totally unworthy. That is why it is called grace, and why salvation is by grace through faith. I am not worthy. He is providing something I do not deserve, will never deserve, cannot deserve, am not worthy of and never will be. I praise and thank him, that though I am unworthy he provided salvation through his blood anyway.