Heavenly I think you should be called Dodge Ball...Not Heavenly if you cannot answer.
Last edited by a moderator:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Prove it.
- Thread starter Amy.G
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
[You apparently are speaking from ignorance.]
The Westminister Confession of Faith published in 1646 states on The Perseverance of the Saints
I. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.
II. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free-will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
III. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalancy of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; ad for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and prevalancy others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.
The London Baptist Confession of Faith approved in 1687 states on The Perseverance of the Saints
1. Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and Sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his Elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; (a) but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without Repentance, (whence he still begets and nourisheth in them Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality) and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastned upon: notwithstanding through unbelief and the temptations of Satan the sensible sight of the light and love of God, may for a time be clouded, and obscured from (b) them, yet he is still the same (c) and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto Salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all Eternity.
[a] Joh. 10.28,29. Phi. 1.6. 2 Tim. 2.19. 1 Joh. 2.19.; Psal. 89.31,32. 1 Cor. 11.32.; [c] Mal. 3.6.
2. This perseverance of the Saints depends not upon their own free will; but upon the immutability of the decree of (d) Election flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ (e) and Union with him, the (f) oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit & the (g) seed of God within them, and the nature of the (h) Covenant of Grace from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
[d] Rom. 8.30. ch. 9.11.16.; [e] Rom. 5.9,10. John 14.19.; [f] Heb. 6.17,18.; [g] 1 Joh. 3.9.; [h] Jer. 32.40.
3. And though they may through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation fall into grievous (i) sins, and for a time continue therein; whereby they incur (k) Gods displeasure, and grieve his holy Spirit, come to have their graces and (l) comforts impaired have their hearts hardened, and their Consciences wounded, (m) hurt, and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgements (n) upon themselves: yet they shall renew their (o) repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
Mat. 26.70,72.74.; [k] Is. 64.5.9. Eph. 4.30; [l] Psal. 51.10.12.; [m] Psa. 32.3,4.; [n] 2 Sam. 12.14.; [o] Luk. 22.32. & v. 61 62.
The Philadelphia Confession of Faith approved in 1687 states on ]The Perseverance of the Saints
1. Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
(John 10:28, 29; Phil. 1:6; 2 Tim. 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Ps. 89:31, 32; 1 Cor. 11:32; Mal. 3:6)
2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
(Rom. 8:30, 9:11, 16; Rom. 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Heb. 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jer. 32:40)
3. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
(Matt. 26:70, 72, 74; Isa. 64:5, 9; Eph. 4:30; Ps. 51:10, 12; Ps. 32:3, 4; 2 Sam. 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62)
All of these Confessions of Faith preceded the introduction of dispensational doctrine by John Darby in about 1830.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Well let’s see. DHK for all practical purposes called me a Gnostic, and Ann called me ‘great one,’ (pay careful attention to the small caps:smilewinkgrin
, and some others of recent days have used far worse adjectives to describe me, so ………..call me anything you like but PLEASEEEEEEE DO NOT call me late to supper!:laugh:Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Agreed
HP: You sound like a convert of Brother Bob.:smilewinkgrin:
HP: One walking in the light dead to themselves and alive to Christ indeed has a complete full assurance of their standing before God. No question about that. The notion that I refute is when one states one can walk in open sin subsequent to salvation without a repentant heart, they still can have a full assurance via OSAS. That I believe is a dangerous doctrine that can and does instill a false sense of security in the hearts and lives of many.
We need to have a clear and steadfast assurance of our salvation, in this present world. The key is to be filled with His Spirit and walk in consistent obedience by the help proffered by God, without which deception is a real possibility of ones standing before Him.
HP: Let me start with this remark. God has called all men in our dispensation to repentance. The next thing is that IF any ever did walk with God 100% of the time in the OT, they did it with God’s help.
With that said, knowing full well that none will do it in our dispensation under any circumstances, I have to admit that I believe "the possibility" must exist for God to be just in punishing man for his sin. Secondly, I believe there is Scriptural support for such a ‘possibility’ namely in the words of Jesus to the rich young ruler. I know that some are going to say that He was just trying to get him to recognize his need, but I do not believe God would teach an untruth to present a truth. Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Regardless of the life that young man lived before, we know that he walked away from the Lord that day in disappointment.
Marcia
Active Member
Marcia
Active Member
God's promise is a promise; those who are saved are sealed by the Holy Spirit and seated in the heavenlies. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit is a deposit - pledge - guarantee - of our salvation.
Martin Luther
New Member
Martin Luther
New Member
That promise of God is true, God has promised to keep all those who are obedient to Him, but only those who are obedient are those worthy of that promise.
Romans 2:6-13
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
I agree that a believer will not continue to walk in blatant sin but there ARE times when one is rebellious and maybe for a time, will not be doing what is right before the Lord. David is an example. He sinned and he didn't even realize he was sinning. But once he was confronted with his sin, he repented of it and paid the price (his son). It is the same with us - I do think that there are times that TRUE believers, who are heaven-bound, have their human nature win over their new nature and sin - willingly. I do not think that this will send the person to hell because they are still sealed with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and other believers will convict them and, they WILL turn from their sin - but it might not be immediately. It happens. I know that I was saved through nothing of my own desire because my own desires are evil. In the same way, there is nothing in me that can keep my salvation - other than the Holy Spirit. So I might stumble and even fall. But that doesn't mean that I'm heading to hell.
So if someone lived a 100% perfect life, they can get to heaven? Then why did Jesus die for them?
Martin Luther
New Member
What difference does it make? The point is, a man who calls himself a dispensationalist believes he is saved differently than O.T. saints. This is what Amy and Ann have said. That the people Christ spoke to were in a "transitional period". Transitioning from what? Either they must claim it was works plus faith or pure works, something other than just faith. The fact is man has always been redeemed by faith and obedience, faith produces obedience.
James 2:16-26
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Martin Luther
New Member
Nobody can live perfect. Christ died to provide redemption. He made it possible to get forgiveness. There is a world of difference between someone who stumbles and someone who has forsaken Christ.
I have never said the OT saints were saved differently. Maybe I haven't made myself clear. So I'll try again.
You and others have said that Christians can be "cut off" of the tree, meaning that they can lose their salvation.
I am saying that the tree that Jesus is speaking about does not represent born again Christians, but represents Israel. The branches that are cut off are unbelieving Jews. It's not that they once believed and now they don't, they never believed and this is why they are cut off.
Jesus said "if you knew My Father, you would know Me". The branches that were cut out of Israel did not believe the Father and that is why they rejected Christ. They didn't lose salvation because they never had it.
Clearer?
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Amy,
You error saying of Romans chapter 11. This chapter is not discuss about nation, it discusses about salvation of individuals.
Romans 11:19-23 telling us clear that God removed Jews from the trees because of their unbeliefe, but the rest of another Jews remain in the same tree because of their believing.
Notice verse 20 says, "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU standest by faith, be not highminded, but FEAR."
This verse is speak toward us as Gentiles also, that we should not be the one of them. That means we must fear before the Lord, and endure int he faith. In Matt. 10:28 tells us, we have to fear of the Lord, because He have the power to cast both our body and SOUL in hell.
If we do not continue in belief and not abide in Christ, then He have the right to remove us away.
Romans 11:19-23 telling the same thing with John 15:1-6 of vine.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
You error saying of Romans chapter 11. This chapter is not discuss about nation, it discusses about salvation of individuals.
Romans 11:19-23 telling us clear that God removed Jews from the trees because of their unbeliefe, but the rest of another Jews remain in the same tree because of their believing.
Notice verse 20 says, "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU standest by faith, be not highminded, but FEAR."
This verse is speak toward us as Gentiles also, that we should not be the one of them. That means we must fear before the Lord, and endure int he faith. In Matt. 10:28 tells us, we have to fear of the Lord, because He have the power to cast both our body and SOUL in hell.
If we do not continue in belief and not abide in Christ, then He have the right to remove us away.
Romans 11:19-23 telling the same thing with John 15:1-6 of vine.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: For my benefit, how were they saved in the OT? If one was living in the OT and desired to be saved, who was in a position to give that advice and what advice would they have had for a man desiring to be saved?
(This question is bound to get us all into some deep discussion and even a few thorny problems)
PS: Just for the record, I do believe in OT OCOC. (once circumcised always circumcised)
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting.
Do you understand the circumcision of the heart? I also believe in OCAC. Under the New Covenant this is called OSAS.
Martin Luther
New Member
No, who do you think was cut off? Israel was cut off 600 years before Christ came. And then what of the Apostles, were they Israelites? If Israel was cut off how is it that Paul believed? Why don't you tell me exactly how an O.T. saint is saved.
I didn't say Israel was cut off. I said the unbelievers were cut off. The tree represents ALL of Israel. The dead branches are those of Israel who were unbelievers.
OT saint was saved by grace through faith.
"Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness."
Why do you keep asserting this untruth. It is like a false allegation. There is not a single dispensationalist that I know that believes that OT saints are saved any differently than NT saints. So just drop it. Stop making unfounded accusations; better yet go get a good book on dispensationalism (like that by Ryrie), and read up on the subject. I tire of your false allegations.
Now listen:
Romans 4:1-4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--Abraham was justified, not by works, but by believing in God. This Scripture makes it plain. It also makes it plain that this is the way that every man (NT or OT) is justified.
"To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace." That is no one is saved by works. One gets rewards by works, not salvation. Those rewards come because they are a debt owed because of the work done. There is no grace here.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Concerning both OT and NT saints salvation is to him that works not. It is for them that come to God by faith alone. It is for them that believes on him that justifies the ungodly. His faith is counted for righteousness. This was written about Abraham, and it applies to us as well. Faith in God brings righteousness or salvation. That is true in the OT, and is true in the NT.
So put to rest the false allegations, and start believing the Bible, and the truth about the those who call themselves dispensationalists.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Yes, I believe I do understand the circumcision of the heart. Let me ask you. Are all that were obedient to circumcision in the OT going to be saved? Is it not true that many walked and were obedient with God but turned from their righteousness and in the end were divorced by God?
Why these clear verses Amy? Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
DHK and Martin Luther, how were they saved in the OT? If one was living in the OT and desired to be saved, who was in a position to give that advice and what advice would they have had for a man desiring to be saved?
Scriptural references accepted:thumbs:
Scriptural references accepted:thumbs: