Prove it.

[Amy.G]

HP, You said that only past sins are forgiven at salvation. Then you say that when you sin after salvation that you must repent and ask forgiveness in order to be forgiven. But what about the blood for those sins committed after salvation? Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. You don't have any blood to cover those sins you committed after your "past" sins only were forgiven.

You may repent and beg and plead for forgiveness, but without the blood (that you say doesn't cover all sins) you're going to hell.

 

[DHK]

HP: Yes, such a picture is indeed ludicrous.

I gave you three clear pictures or examples in Scripture of a Father/son relationship. What did you do. Call them ludicrous, deny them, dismiss them, and remain in a state of unbelief. Why even have a debate at all?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I gave you three clear pictures or examples in Scripture of a Father/son relationship. What did you do. Call them ludicrous, deny them, dismiss them, and remain in a state of unbelief.

HP: No. I simply tried to state that although the illustration is in some ways connected to our relationship with our children, there are some distict differences which you are not taking into consideration, one being that God is the Final Judge and at that court there will be some eternal separations taking place that I believe at one time are represented in Scripture as having started well but ending in judgment without an Advocate.

We both feel frustrated at times, but this is not just about you and I. Others read and have an opportunity to see our ideas tested by someone other than the yes men we often find in Churches. I believe that is healthy and good if proper attitudes can prevail. My desire is to maintain such an attitude as much as lieth within me. When it no more lies within me, I will seek another venue to share what I believe is the heart of truth. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: HP, You said that only past sins are forgiven at salvation. Then you say that when you sin after salvation that you must repent and ask forgiveness in order to be forgiven. But what about the blood for those sins committed after salvation? Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. You don't have any blood to cover those sins you committed after your "past" sins only were forgiven.

You may repent and beg and plead for forgiveness, but without the blood (that you say doesn't cover all sins) you're going to hell.

HP: The notion of the atonement I have presented in no wise lines up with the questions you are asking. I will try my best on the thread entitled “The Atonement” to clear up any misunderstanding of a governmental substitution that I believe Scripture represents the Atonement as being.

I will simply say here that the blood that was shed was for every sin ever committed and that will ever be committed period. No particular individual sin was pardoned on the cross, but rather a way was made. The Atonement made was directed to God's law,(hence the blood being applied not directly to us but rather to the mercy seat of God) that has every potential of paying the sin debt of every living soul. It is not applied in reality to our individual sins until we follow the conditions set forth for forgiveness, the first condition being repentance. At salvation all sins that are past are forgiven, we are given a clean slate and the righteousness of Christ has been applied to our lives, again in relationship to sins that are past and our present state.

If we sin as believers, it is our duty to repent for those sins, do our first works over again, in order for those sins to receive the same atonement as those placed under the blood at salvation, to the end they as well, (as were our first sins repented of,) will never be brought up before God again.

The way was made on the cross, the bridge was built that makes forgiveness and salvation possible, but it is accomplish individually on our account until we repent and turn to Christ in faith. Nothing in forgiveness or salvation prevents one from turning from the grace they once received, and doing despite the mercy once bestowed upon them, and in the end having the possibility of being lost.

 

[webdog]

=Martin Luther

Show who what?

Please follow along

You said... "Most of these OSAS people are closet dispensationalists", and then went on after that.

Who?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: I will simply say here that the blood that was shed was for every sin ever committed and that will ever be committed period.

So have you now changed your mind? Because all along you've said that only our past sins are forgiven?

 

[Amy.G]

Please follow along

You said... "Most of these OSAS people are closet dispensationalists", and then went on after that.

Who?

You! That's who! You closet dispy you!


JK :wavey:

 

[DHK]

HP: No. I simply tried to state that although the illustration is in some ways connected to our relationship with our children, there are some distict differences which you are not taking into consideration, one being that God is the Final Judge and at that court there will be some eternal separations taking place that I believe at one time are represented in Scripture as having started well but ending in judgment without an Advocate.

Concerning believers, you believe that born again Christians are going to stand before "God as the Final Judge, and at that court there will be some eternal separations taking place." Unbelievable.

There are two judgments, and for good reason. The only ones that will stand before God in the judgment called The Great White Throne Judgment, are unbelievers, the unsaved. No believer will be saved, only those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life; and they all will be given their one and last final sentence--to be thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev.20:11-15)

The other judgement is called The Judgment Seat of Christ, which will take place more than a thousand years before the GWT. It is for believers only, with no unbeliever present. There believers will be judged for their works. There some of the believers will be lost, and others will be rewarded. No man will ever lose his salvation; something impossible. Eternal life can never become "uneternal," a contradiction of terms. Once eternal life ceases it is no more eternal but temporary. If that should ever happen then Jesus Christ would be a liar.

There are two judgements not one. Thus your post does not make sense.

 

[annsni]

Most of these OSAS people are closet dispensationalists. With one breath they claim no one is saved by the law, and then with the next breath they claim that O.T. saints and those alive during Christ’s life are not saved the same way the rest of us are. Well if they are not saved by the works of the law then what salvation was Christ teaching them? You hit it on the head with this one.


Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;

[/QUOTE]

That's interesting - I've been OSAS all my Christian life (over 35 years I think?) and I've never met anyone who was a dispensationalist who believes in OSAS. But then it might just be the circles I run in. I've learned a lot of doctrines and ideas since going on the internet that I've never been exposed to.

 

[DHK]

That's interesting - I've been OSAS all my Christian life (over 35 years I think?) and I've never met anyone who was a dispensationalist who believes in OSAS. But then it might just be the circles I run in. I've learned a lot of doctrines and ideas since going on the internet that I've never been exposed to.

Is that really what you intended to say?
I have been both OSAS and a dispensationalist all my life.

 

[annsni]

HP: Let’s simply cut to the chase. Are you going to give us a list of sins that one can commit and get into heaven and then give us a list of sins that if one commits them, refusing to repent, will suddenly find out that they were never saved in the first place? If not, walk with me just a little longer.:thumbs:

Let's say that a believer commits adultery and refuse to repent, continuing in that lifestyle until he or she dies…… Or, say a believer commits murder, and refuses to repent. Lay out your hope to these that ‘have believed’ of their eternal salvation. If, by some chance, you are going to tell me that they were never saved with in the beginning if they are lost in the end, tell us what sins in a persons life are evident that they have never been saved, and what sins might be evident in the normal believers life.

Scripture tells us that only one sin is unforgivable. The rest are forgivable. Not one sin can keep us out of heaven if we are saved. But also realized that if we are saved, we do not have the desire to sin, have guilt when we sin, repent of our sin, and continue to walk in the Lord. One who says they are saved yet continue to live in blatant sin without repentance will be one who is not truly saved.

Honestly, there will be those in heaven who will surprise us and there will be those missing who will surprise us. We see through our own sinful eyes - only God truly knows if another person is going to heaven or hell - and that person will have full assurance of salvation if they are truly saved.

 

[annsni]

HP: I would be happy to answer for myself. Why do not you answer the questions I asked of Amy as well. I would like to see your answer..... Or will you just point your finger at me and fail to do so yourself?

Here is my answer. I will answer questions as to my beliefs as herein posted subsequent to DHK and Amy answer my questions. :thumbs:

HP: There will be none in heaven who have shown a heart of refusal to repent and to turn from their sins. Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

I agree. One who does not have a heart to repent does not have a new heart. They continue to have a heart of stone.

Now a lot of the problems on this list surrounds yet another misconception, i.e., what is ‘sin’? Sin to some on this list could be an inherited problem much like the color of ones hair or the color of their skin, to the involuntary reflex of ones muscle, not involving the will in the least. I believe that well entrenched but false notions surrounding the nature of sin is at the heart of the false notions of OSAS. That as well needs a thread of its own as we have had in the past but is obviously in need of addressing again.

If a person lives a 100% perfect life apart from Christ, would they go to heaven? Can I have Scriptural support?

 

[TCGreek]

All Dispensationists I know believe also in the eternal security of the believer.

 

[annsni]

HP: Our relationship with our earthly children is only 'in some limited way' akin to the relationship we have with our Heavenly Father. God is the Father of all in a limited sense, but there is a point you missed in your father/son illustration. God is in the end going to be the judge of all and at that time will willingly separate for all eternity from those that did not repent, something a father/son relationship as you paint it does not and cannot set forth as it is in reality.

Can you show me one verse that says that we are all God's children?

The notion of ‘once a son always a son’ is nowhere found in Holy Writ. Oh yes, I almost forgot. There are some ‘so called translations that absolutely destroy the intended meaning of God’s word to man by placing into their versions that thought. But thank God that there are still some true to the intents God had for the original translators to pen, one such translation being the KJV. Yes, the Holy Spirit undeniably attests to my spirit that the rendering of John 8 as read in the KJV is indeed in agreement to His original inspired Word. The Spirit does NOT testify to my spirit that the same can be said for all other versions that completely change this passage to support the OSAS presupposition.

Oh please, great one. Please show us said verse that does such a thing!

Does anyone here believe that the possibility of some modern authors of some so-called translations could have been affected by their own adherence to the OSAS dogma? I certainly believe so, and that without question in my mind.

Since I've always believed in OSAS and used the KJV for the first 15 years of my salvation, I think I got it from the KJV too.

 

[DHK]

Yes, the Holy Spirit undeniably attests to my spirit that the rendering of John 8 as read in the KJV is indeed in agreement to His original inspired Word. The Spirit does NOT testify to my spirit that the same can be said for all other versions that completely change this passage to support the OSAS presupposition.

Whether this offends you or not, the truth is that the above statement falls nothing short of a belief in the doctrine of gnosticism.

 

[annsni]

Is that really what you intended to say?
I have been both OSAS and a dispensationalist all my life.

ROTFL - I guess not! I was making dinner when I typed that. Let me see if I can say it better:

"I've been OSAS all my Christian life (over 35 years I think?) and I've never met anyone who was a "dispensationalist who believes in OSAS" being the only OSAS believer (iow, I know a lot of OSAS who are not dispensationalists). Honestly, I've not been exposed to the dispensational doctrine as I'm thinking through things. But then it might just be the circles I run in. I've learned a lot of doctrines and ideas since going on the internet that I've never been exposed to."

Is that better? (I'm now watching Survivor. Maybe I should stop multi-tasking - LOL).

 

[annsni]

All Dispensationists I know believe also in the eternal security of the believer.

OK - What I'm saying is that I've not been much exposed to dispensational teaching - yet I know a ton of OSAS believers. Make better sense?

It's not that I've met dispensationalist who did not believe in eternal security.

 

[webdog]

You! That's who! You closet dispy you!


JK :wavey:

Hey...I'm NEVER coming out of the closet for ANYTHING!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
You say: "Only through repentance and obedience can man be justified." That is complete contrary to Scripture.

John 6:28. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 3:28. Therefore we conclude thata man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 4:5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 5:1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 5:2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Galatians 2:16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 3:26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Response Posted by Martin Luther
All this goes back to the fact that you do not understand the religion at the time of Paul. Most of these men had to unlearn what they thought was law salvation through the works of the law. They thought by their deeds, by the works of the law they were safe. They did not think they needed a Messiah. We are justified by faith, but clearly James explains what saving faith is. Maybe you should reread Hebrews 11 for a refresher on saving faith.


Revelation 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

You are apparently of the same mindset as those of the Apostle Paul's day. Man's condition and need has been the same since Adam rebelled against God. Justification has never been by works but by faith. You really do disservice to the name you use by arguing justification by works.

I suggest that you are the one who needs to read Hebrews 11.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Amy, thanks for making that clear.:wavey:HEAVENLY ,Do you seek to understand the security of the believer and this is why you post on this subject? Or are you refuting it for the benefit of............? Reason I ask is that we should build others"the body of Christ" through the teaching of Gods word so is there a reason why?? I just want to know your motive and if there is a spiritual benefit for this discussion.Still waiting for the answer!:type: