Prove it.

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: HP, that was not my quote. That was ML's quote.

HP: My bad. I am sorry.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Agnus Dei: And I would also add HP that the doctrine of “Original Sin” was a motivating factor in Calvin’s development of OSAS theology.

HP: I would agree.

Here is a really strange twist. Along comes John Wesley and tries to distance himself from the determinism of Calvinism, but still maintains the doctrine of original sin is true, minus any guilt on the account of it. Then he cannot figure out why, even under intense study, that he is dangerously “far too close to Calvinism.” I certainly can tell him why, thanks to some other men of God that went before men that were faithful in passing on truth of the matter to me. Certainly I have not discovered anything on my own. I owe a debt of gratitude to many gone on before me. :thumbs:

 

[Martin Luther]

I'm not dispensational. I have admitted no such thing.

But there is no denying that there is a difference between the Old Covenant and the New.


Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

I realize that you may not understand it but you have espoused dispensational doctrine. All men are saved the same way, through faith in a risen Christ, this includes O.T. saints. No man comes to God except through the Son, this is no different for O.T. saints. Was Christ saying people had to be saved through Him or through the law?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: It clearly implies that if one does NOT walk in the light, no cleansing from sins not repented of and not forsaken, are or will be forgiven or cleansed by the blood.

But according to you, the blood only covers sins of the past, before one is saved.

So if I was saved yesterday, all of my past sins would have been covered by the blood and forgiven. But today I told a lie (just a little one :saint. That lie is not covered by the blood, so even if I seek forgiveness for it, I cannot receive it because the blood doesn't cover sins committed after salvation, since they are yet future.

Can you see the problem with this view?



Now I must go get some work done. Have to mow part of the yard. :laugh: Then grocery shopping, errands, laundry.....whew, I'm already tired. :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

I realized that you may not understand it but you have espoused dispensational doctrine. All men are saved the same way, through faith in a risen Christ, this includes O.T. saints. No man comes to God except through the Son, this is no different for O.T. saints. Was Christ saying people had to be saved through Him or through the law?

No one is saved through the law. Paul made that abundantly clear. But OT saint looked forward to Christ. He had not yet come. But when He did come, many rejected Him. They were not saved. It can get kind of confusing because when Christ came there was a transitioning between the Old Cov. and the New.

But I am not dispensational, pre-trib, pre-mil, yet I know from scripture that there are 2 covenants of God. The second fulfilled the first.

 

[Martin Luther]

And I would also add HP that the doctrine of “Original Sin” was a motivating factor in Calvin’s development of OSAS theology.

In XC
-

Exactly, man is born with a sin nature but not born with sin.

 

[Martin Luther]

No one is saved through the law. Paul made that abundantly clear. But OT saint looked forward to Christ. He had not yet come. But when He did come, many rejected Him. They were not saved. It can get kind of confusing because when Christ came there was a transitioning between the Old Cov. and the New.

But I am not dispensational, pre-trib, pre-mil, yet I know from scripture that there are 2 covenants of God. The second fulfilled the first.

So answer the question, was Christ while living preaching the law or himself? And how does that change faith for the rest of us, what difference does it make if you're looking forward or backward. Salvation has always been the same. Hebrews 11 can not be any clearer.



Hebrews 11:24-26

24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of the Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

The was added here to correct the KJV.

 

[annsni]

I knew the dispensationalism heresy would come out at some point. So let’s be very clear, you have just admitted to me that there are verses that show a man can lose his salvation with the caveat being that they simply don't apply to you because Christ had not died yet, is that true?

This is not true. John the Baptist was speaking to the Jews who came to him for a baptism of repentance. He's telling them to watch out because Jesus was coming and was going to show those who were truly of God and those who were not amongst them.

Once again, let's read IN CONTEXT:

1In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet,

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall become straight,
and the rough places shall become level ways,
6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'"

7He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 9Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

10And the crowds asked him, "What then shall we do?" 11And he answered them, "Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise." 12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" 13And he said to them, "Collect no more than you are authorized to do." 14Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages."

15As the people were in expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Christ, 16 John answered them all, saying, "I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

18So with many other exhortations he preached good news to the people. 19But Herod the tetrarch, who had been reproved by him for Herodias, his brother’s wife, and for all the evil things that Herod had done, 20added this to them all, that he locked up John in prison.

21Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: The "but if" is comparing walking in the light or darkness. It's not that we can go back and forth between darkness and light - but that we do one or the other. If we walk in darkness, we do not have life. If we walk in light, we have life. This speaks nothing of works or losing salvation at all.

HP: If you have no fellowship or life, ye are or at least in the end shall be, none of His. Here again you, as do many others, take a clear condition set in the Scripture by God, and explain it away so as not to upset your firmly entrenched presupposition of OSAS. I believe you do it to the destruction of the truth God is trying to convey.
Quote:
HP: If one commits sins subsequent to forgiveness, one needs to fulfill the conditions for forgiveness just as one did when they were saved. Repent, do ones ‘first works,’ (DO YOU HEAR THAT?? “FIRST WORKS.”) and turn away from ones sins. Make for yourself a new heart. Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ann: So, like the Catholic church taught me when I was young, if I sin and do not confess it and do penance, then I will not go to heaven?

HP: I am not a Catholic and will let them present their own ideas. I will tell you that upon the authority of the Word of God, if a righteous man or women turns from their righteousness and refuses to repent, they will die in their sins. Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Ann: What you are saying is that when we are initially saved, we are now no longer counted as "sinful" but "neutral". Our slate has been wiped clean but we still have the slate to write on.

HP: Where have I ever stated or implied that?? We are given a clean slate but have the righteousness of Christ applied to our hearts via the forgiveness of sins that are past. “Old things are washed away and behold all things are become new.” We are made righteous in Christ. It is our duty subsequently to walk in the light as He is in the light. If we fail to do that, we are commanded to repent and do our first ‘works’ over again. How hard is that to understand? Just as if one receives a pardon, they are polaced back in a right relationship to the law. IF they go back and commit new violations of the law, will thei past pardon cover them for the new violations? Neither will ones past forgiveness, according to Scripture, cover for sins returned to.

Ann: However we know from Scripture that we are given Christ's righteousness which is not a "clean slate" but the slate is taken away.

HP: It is the slate of PAST SINS that is taken away Ann, not the slate of any future acts of disobedience or rebellion. Ro 3:25 “ Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;”

I cannot help it. I am tempted to ask if you believe the Word of God and if it is true, and a few other questions that have been asked of myself on this board.

Ann: Romans 8:1 tells us "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." "There is therefore now...." is a pretty positive statement - a statement that speaks from this point forward.

HP: Once again you destroy the Word of God by failure to add the condition God wrote in that verse. You do it to the detriment of the truth. I will post the condition in that verse for your edification and instruction: “WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.”

Ann: I praise God that there is NOTHING that I can do that will take me out of His hand.

HP: Praising God is great, but praise does not, nor will it ever, negate the clearly stated conditions you seem to simply desire to go away. Your praise does not change the Word of God.

 

[annsni]

I realize that you may not understand it but you have espoused dispensational doctrine. All men are saved the same way, through faith in a risen Christ, this includes O.T. saints. No man comes to God except through the Son, this is no different for O.T. saints. Was Christ saying people had to be saved through Him or through the law?

This is correct. But that is just what John was speaking of - that Jesus would come and cut down those who thought they were saved because of the Law instead of being saved because of Him. Amy did not say anything about dispensational doctrine.

 

[Martin Luther]

This is not true. John the Baptist was speaking to the Jews who came to him for a baptism of repentance. He's telling them to watch out because Jesus was coming and was going to show those who were truly of God and those who were not amongst them.

Once again, let's read IN CONTEXT:

1In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet,

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall become straight,
and the rough places shall become level ways,
6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'"

7He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 9Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

10And the crowds asked him, "What then shall we do?" 11And he answered them, "Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise." 12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" 13And he said to them, "Collect no more than you are authorized to do." 14Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages."

15As the people were in expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Christ, 16 John answered them all, saying, "I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

18So with many other exhortations he preached good news to the people. 19But Herod the tetrarch, who had been reproved by him for Herodias, his brother’s wife, and for all the evil things that Herod had done, 20added this to them all, that he locked up John in prison.

21Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."

And how do you explain:

Hebrews 11:24-26


24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.



John 3:7-11

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Mainly I want you to explain to me how is it that Christ was shocked that Nicodemus did not know that he needed to be born OF THE SPIRIT?
I'll ask you the same thing, what salvation was Christ preaching? I really wish you and Amy would address the salvation by faith spoken of in Hebrews 11.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

But according to you, the blood only covers sins of the past, before one is saved.

So if I was saved yesterday, all of my past sins would have been covered by the blood and forgiven. But today I told a lie (just a little one :saint. That lie is not covered by the blood, so even if I seek forgiveness for it, I cannot receive it because the blood doesn't cover sins committed after salvation, since they are yet future.

As HP has suggested, your view of the Atonement is somewhat skewed and once you, like myself once, understands exactly why God sent His Son to die for the sins of the world, you’ll begin to better understand what salvation is and how salvation works in the life of a Christian (and I don’t say this to take a jab at your understanding nor am I even suggesting that you’re not saved).

Personally, now as an Orthodox Christian, who now has a somewhat better understanding of our salvation and someone who now doesn’t hold to the OSAS, actually feels better about my salvation than I did before. I’m no longer caught up in the idea that all I had to do was repeat a prayer and sit back and relax until the end.

In XC
-

 

[annsni]

And how do you explain:

Hebrews 11:24-26


24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.



John 3:7-11

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Mainly I want you to explain to me how is it that Christ was shocked that Nicodemus did not know that he needed to be born OF THE SPIRIT?
I'll ask you the same thing, what salvation was Christ preaching? I really wish you and Amy would address the salvation by faith spoken of in Hebrews 11.

I totally agree with you. Saving faith is faith in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. What's the issue? That John was not speaking of saved believers being cut down in Luke 3.

 

[DHK]

What if calvanist and armenians actually worked together. If you notice neither term is in the Bible.

What if one is neither.
1. I am not a "calvanist" since no such thing.
2. I am not a "Calvinist" either, which is probably what you meant.

3. I am not an armenian: a member of a people dwelling chiefly in Armenia and neighboring areas (as Turkey or Azerbaijan) (Merrian Webster dictionary)
4. Neither am I an Arminian, which is probably what you meant.

I believe the Bible but I do not subscribe fully to either one of these systems of theology. I am neither. The Bible is my sole rule of faith and order, and that will I stand by.

 

[DHK]

[quot=Heavenly Pilgrim;1394001]

Amy said: So the blood covers all sins of the past, but not the future?

You said:

HP: Yes, according to Scripture.

Amy said

Amy: How then can you be forgiven of any future sins?

You said:

HP: Just as Scripture states, repent, turn
to Christ in faith for that cleansing, and make of yourself a new heart by turning from them in obedience to God.

[/quote]It sounds like you believe in RCC. What if the priest doesn't get there before extreme unction just before you die of a heart attack or automobile accident, before you have a chance to confess your sin. Then you will die with that mortal sin on your soul and go to Hell.
The same theology HP. If you suddenly die with unconfessed sin, without a chance to repent of it, you will spend an eternity in Hell. You have no assurance of salvation. You say that one must repent first in order for Christ to cleanse you. But what if you don't have that chance? What then? You have no hope, just like the RC. Your belief is no different.

 

[Martin Luther]

This is correct. But that is just what John was speaking of - that Jesus would come and cut down those who thought they were saved because of the Law instead of being saved because of Him. Amy did not say anything about dispensational doctrine.

The trees not bearing fruit are not cut down until Christ returns at the day of the Lord. Those "Christians" who have no fruit along with Christ rejecting Jews will be cast into Hell. Lots of people will be thrown into Hell, some will include those who said a prayer trusting some silly notion that God was now forced to let them in Heaven. Faith is not a thought, faith is an action.

"Dispensationalism is a Protestant evangelical theology and interpretive framework for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. Rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby, the term derives from the concept of a "dispensation" or administration referring to a series of chronologically successive dispensations that emphasize certain Biblical covenants"


When you start implying that men were saved by the old covenant you become a dispensationalist. There was no "transitional time" when Christ was alive, that is dispensationalism.

 

[annsni]

The trees not bearing fruit are not cut down until Christ returns at the day of the Lord. Those "Christians" who have no fruit along with Christ rejecting Jews will be cast into Hell. Lots of people will be thrown into Hell, some will include those who said a prayer trusting some silly notion that God was now forced to let them in Heaven. Faith is not a thought, faith is an action.

"Dispensationalism is a Protestant evangelical theology and interpretive framework for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. Rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby, the term derives from the concept of a "dispensation" or administration referring to a series of chronologically successive dispensations that emphasize certain Biblical covenants"


When you start implying that men were saved by the old covenant you become a dispensationalist. There was no "transitional time" when Christ was alive, that is dispensationalism.

So now back to the text:

Luke 3:

7He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 9Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Where does it say that believers will be cut down?

 

[Martin Luther]

So now back to the text:

Luke 3:

7He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 9Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Where does it say that believers will be cut down?

Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: Where does it say that believers will be cut down?

HP: It does not, nor would it have to, say that any believer will be cut down. It simply sets forth the possibility that one that was a believer but turned from that belief, could be. A believer in the end will only be those that remain faithful to the end. All others will never have believed or believed but turned from that belief in disobedience. No one that is a believer and remains faithful will ever be cut off.

True believers continue in obedience, they are not simply those that believed and then turned from it and as such were cut off.


Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;

 

[annsni]

Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire

Now let's look at Romans 11 where it further speaks of the branches and the vine:

If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

We see where Jesus was going to use the axe. It is not for believers but for the Jews. John was speaking of the Jews who would not accept Christ.