Prove it.

[Agnus_Dei]

I guess nobody wanted to touch this verse.

Col 1:23 is pretty self explanatory Steven; I know you use the word IF almost on a daily basis, so simply ask yourself what do you mean when you use the word IF.

I promised my kids ice cream IF they behave in Church. IF it doesn’t rain, we’ll go to the game. What will happen to the project complete date IF my computer crashes?

Col 1:23 is saying that provided you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard. IF used in Holy Scripture and in every day language is conditional.

In XC
-

 

[Martin Luther]

I find it perplexing that those who believe one can lose their salvation also believe that salvation is gained by faith and lost by works.

How can one who knows God then later say that God does not exist?

I love the way many people throw the word faith around with no understanding of its meaning. True faith produces fruit; many here have put the cart before the horse. You cannot force out works when you really don't have real faith. If you are a Christian with no fruit, maybe you should look more at your heart and not what works you can go do. Those who have real faith will produce real fruit.

 

[annsni]

I love the way many people through the word faith around with no understanding of its meaning. True faith produces fruit; many here have put the cart before the horse. You cannot force out works when you really don't have real faith. If you are a Christian with no fruit, maybe you should look more at your heart and not what works you can go do. Those who have real faith will produce real fruit.

DING, DING, DING!!!!!

Very correct. If there is no fruit, one does not have life. Faith WILL produce fruit. Life will produce fruit. Sometimes the fruit is smaller, sometimes the fruit is larger but there will always be fruit. But the fruit does not give life. It is a sign of life.

 

[Martin Luther]

DING, DING, DING!!!!!

Very correct. If there is no fruit, one does not have life. Faith WILL produce fruit. Life will produce fruit. Sometimes the fruit is smaller, sometimes the fruit is larger but there will always be fruit. But the fruit does not give life. It is a sign of life.

But that is not to say that once a man produces real fruit that he can not ever fall away. This is the contention of this thread. What we are saying here is that God will cut down those trees not bringing forth good fruit.


Luke 3:9

9And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Revelation 3:15-17

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:



I really can't understand how anyone could confuse these verses:


Matthew 24:45-51 (King James Version)

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Amy.G]

"prove that we are wrong" Amy G,are you asking for proof because your not sure? If you are why are you asking this question?? :saint: I think we believer should be ready to give an answer for the hope we have,but your question begs and argument and what in the world are we as salt doing this for? Are you trying to save a soul from perdition??

No, no, no. You have misunderstood me.

This thread is in response to the multitude of threads where certain people have continued to say that we who believe in eternal security are wrong, wrong, wrong. I started this thread to give them an opportunity to prove me wrong using scripture instead of opinion.

I am not confused about the issue. I am firmly OSAS! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: What conditions are you trying to appy to the Colossians passage? Because the people Paul is speaking to are already saved. He says plainly that they have NOW been justified. He doesn't say they will be justified "if"....

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

HP: You cannot hardly write a sentence without OSAS as a presupposition. You are assuming without proof, begging the question, that because one has been justified that they cannot move away from the hope of the gospel.

“Hope of the gospel?!” Why do not you straighten Paul out? You claim you have absolute knowledge of your salvation and that OSAS is a fact, not a hope. Why in the world does the apostle speak of your absolute knowledge as a ‘hope??’ “Moved away from the gospel??” My goodness Amy. Are you going to tell him that he is calling God a liar, or that he is denying the Word of God, or that he is either a blasphemer or bordering it at least for denying the absolute knowledge the Holy Spirit gives absolute knowledge that cannot be turned away from? Does the apostle not know that ‘no man’ includes himself as well as all those he is addressing? “If ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled??” Dear brother Paul, do you not understand the impossibility of turning from your eternal destiny being OSAS? Do you believe your will can thwart the direct chosen election by an Omnipotent God?

Amy: So in your prison story, at what point does the governor throw the prisoner back in jail? If he gets a traffic ticket will it void his pardon? What provokes the governor to rescind his pardon?

HP: The point of the prison story is to show that conditions can and do apply and by no means necessitate a ‘works based’ pardon, just as salvation can and does demand that we fulfill certain conditions, and that without necessitating a works based salvation in the least. My story does not go into detail of what happens if one breaks the law after given a pardon for specific offenses. You are smart enough to figure that out without my help. Selah. Think about it. Does a pardon give anyone a blanket covering for any future infractions?

 

[Amy.G]

But that is not to say that once a man produces real fruit that he can not ever fall away. This is the contention of this thread. What we are saying here is that God will cut down those trees not bringing forth good fruit.


Luke 3:9

9And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

These verses are not speaking of born again, Spirit indwelt believers. This was spoken before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, before it was "finished".
The trees in this verse are Jews who rejected their Messiah.

Revelation 3:15-17

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

This church did not need God, even though they were:
poor: spiritually bankrupt
blind: spiritually blind
naked: without the covering of the blood.

I see "churches" like this everyday in this country. Just turn on the tv.

I really can't understand how anyone could confuse these verses:

It's easily confused when you try to fit NT theology into OT theology. You cannot put new wine into old wineskins.

Matthew 24:45-51 (King James Version)

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Again, speaking to Jews who when their Messiah came, they rejected Him.

Remember that Jesus came to the Jews, not the Gentiles. I'm not saying that we should ignore what Jesus says just because we're not Jews, heaven forbid. But we have to put things into context and when we know who Jesus was speaking to and why He was speaking to them, and that the words He spoke to them were before the New Covenant, then we will be able to understand and things will fit together instead of appearing to be contradictory.

 

[Amy.G]

The point of the prison story is to show that conditions can and do apply and by no means necessitate a ‘works based’ pardon, just as salvation can and does demand that we fulfill certain conditions, and that without necessitating a works based salvation in the least. My story does not go into detail of what happens if one breaks the law after given a pardon for specific offenses. You are smart enough to figure that out without my help. Selah. Think about it. Does a pardon give anyone a blanket covering for any future infractions?

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post, it's not worth my time.

I want YOU to tell me at what point does God rescind our pardon? What causes Him to do so? It is not on my shoulders to answer this question, it's on yours, because I do NOT believe that God unjustifies us. This your belief. I would like for you to give the scriptures that show that God revokes our salvation. If it's there, it should not be a problem for you.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: What provokes the governor to rescind his pardon?

HP: First, this is a great thread and allows us to explore the truth from a slightly different angle. Thank you for starting it Amy. I believe your motivation is indeed worthy. We should establish and demand proof of our beliefs. :thumbs:

I should have addressed this point directly. Once sins are forgiven by God they are never to be remembered again period. God does not rescind His forgiveness for past sins, He simply does not give one a license to sin in the future with impunity. Read this verse carefully. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” Read it again. Mark it in your Bible and set it as fronlets before your eyes. God forgives sins that are past. His blood has covered ‘sins that are past, and for those sins he continues to cover as a propitiation for those sins. Never does Scripture offer forgiveness outside of repentance and turning away from sin. Scripture never grants a blanket pardon for sins one might commit in the future.

Listen to this little word “if’ again in another passage, 1Jo 1:7 “BUT IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.“ Notice that cleansing by the blood has a “BUT IF,” a clearly set forth CONDITION placed right before the promise. We would do well to consider this carefully.

If one commits sins subsequent to forgiveness, one needs to fulfill the conditions for forgiveness just as one did when they were saved. Repent, do ones ‘first works,’ (DO YOU HEAR THAT?? “FIRST WORKS.”) and turn away from ones sins. Make for yourself a new heart. Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[thegospelgeek]

I find it perplexing that those who believe one can lose their salvation also believe that salvation is gained by faith and lost by works.

How can one who knows God then later say that God does not exist?

Don't know any that believe this. And I know several thousand. If one does beleive this, they are incorrect.

One is saved by faith in the redemptive work of Christ. One is lost the same way. John 3 says that those who believe are not condemed, those who believe not are condemed, pretty simple stuff. Actually a Child can understand it. Problem is when we become adults we must complicate it so that it becomes confusing to everyone who hears. That's why so many are lost. We as a Church would rather bicker and argue about doctrine than we would do anything else. The book of Acts is filled with marvelous things the church did. Study it and see how many time they were in agreement with one another.

 

[Martin Luther]

These verses are not speaking of born again, Spirit indwelt believers. This was spoken before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, before it was "finished".
The trees in this verse are Jews who rejected their Messiah.




This church did not need God, even though they were:
poor: spiritually bankrupt
blind: spiritually blind
naked: without the covering of the blood.

I see "churches" like this everyday in this country. Just turn on the tv.



It's easily confused when you try to fit NT theology into OT theology. You cannot put new wine into old wineskins.



Again, speaking to Jews who when their Messiah came, they rejected Him.

Remember that Jesus came to the Jews, not the Gentiles. I'm not saying that we should ignore what Jesus says just because we're not Jews, heaven forbid. But we have to put things into context and when we know who Jesus was speaking to and why He was speaking to them, and that the words He spoke to them were before the New Covenant, then we will be able to understand and things will fit together instead of appearing to be contradictory.

I knew the dispensationalism heresy would come out at some point. So let’s be very clear, you have just admitted to me that there are verses that show a man can lose his salvation with the caveat being that they simply don't apply to you because Christ had not died yet, is that true?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The gospelgeek: We as a Church would rather bicker and argue about doctrine than we would do anything else.

HP: You have some great things to say :thumbs:......but I might take a slight exception with this comment.

Some may simply desire to argue for arguments sake. IF that is ones motivation they are wrong. Just the same, that is not my motivation. We are dealing with the souls of men and doctrines and dogmas that could in the end affect ones final standing before God. We should take our duty seriously knowing this, Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: you have just admitted to me that there are verses that show a man can lose his salvation with the caveat being that they simply don't apply to you…..

HP: Tell us why they do not apply to you. Prove it.

 

[Amy.G]

I should have addressed this point directly. Once sins are forgiven by God they are never to be remembered again period. God does not rescind His forgiveness for past sins, He simply does not give one a license to sin in the future with impunity. Read this verse carefully. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” Read it again. Mark it in your Bible and set it as fronlets before your eyes. God forgives sins that are past. His blood has covered ‘sins that are past, and for those sins he continues to cover as a propitiation for those sins. Never does Scripture offer forgiveness outside of repentance and turning away from sin. Scripture never grants a blanket pardon for sins one might commit in the future.

So the blood covers all sins of the past, but not the future? How then can you be forgiven of any future sins? Yes, we should repent and ask forgiveness, but only the blood cleanses from sin. Does Christ need to be crucified each time I sin in order for my sin to washed away?

What does "once for all" mean?

Listen to this little word “if’ again in another passage, 1Jo 1:7 “BUT IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.“ Notice that cleansing by the blood has a “BUT IF,” a clearly set forth CONDITION placed right before the promise. We would do well to consider this carefully.

If we walk in the light of course we will have fellowship with one another because we are living in God's will. How does this apply to salvation?

The word "cleanseth" if I'm not mistaken indicates an ongoing action, not a one time event. We are continually being cleansed from sin. That is what our advocate does.

If one commits sins subsequent to forgiveness, one needs to fulfill the conditions for forgiveness just as one did when they were saved. Repent, do ones ‘first works,’ (DO YOU HEAR THAT?? “FIRST WORKS.”) and turn away from ones sins. Make for yourself a new heart. Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I can't make for myself a new heart. That is something only God can do. He made for me a new heart when I put my faith in Christ. And because of that I will NOT die, ever. Jesus' blood either covers ALL of my sins or none of them.

 

[annsni]

Listen to this little word “if’ again in another passage, 1Jo 1:7 “BUT IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.“ Notice that cleansing by the blood has a “BUT IF,” a clearly set forth CONDITION placed right before the promise. We would do well to consider this carefully.

It really helps to read in full context:

"5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

The "but if" is comparing walking in the light or darkness. It's not that we can go back and forth between darkness and light - but that we do one or the other. If we walk in darkness, we do not have life. If we walk in light, we have life. This speaks nothing of works or losing salvation at all.

If one commits sins subsequent to forgiveness, one needs to fulfill the conditions for forgiveness just as one did when they were saved. Repent, do ones ‘first works,’ (DO YOU HEAR THAT?? “FIRST WORKS.”) and turn away from ones sins. Make for yourself a new heart. Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

So, like the Catholic church taught me when I was young, if I sin and do not confess it and do penance, then I will not go to heaven?

What you are saying is that when we are initially saved, we are now no longer counted as "sinful" but "neutral". Our slate has been wiped clean but we still have the slate to write on. However we know from Scripture that we are given Christ's righteousness which is not a "clean slate" but the slate is taken away. Romans 8:1 tells us "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." "There is therefore now...." is a pretty positive statement - a statement that speaks from this point forward. I praise God that there is NOTHING that I can do that will take me out of His hand. That I don't need to worry that the bad thought I had a minute ago, or the anger I just had towards my child will keep me from His presence. I will continue to sin - there is no question. And I must confess that sin because God commands it but if I miss something - if I don't confess something, that certainly does not mean that I have lost my salvation. God forbid that it be up to me to hold on to my salvation because I cannot.

 

[thegospelgeek]

HP: You have some great things to say :thumbs:......but I might take a slight exception with this comment.

Some may simply desire to argue for arguments sake. IF that is ones motivation they are wrong. Just the same, that is not my motivation. We are dealing with the souls of men and doctrines and dogmas that could in the end affect ones final standing before God. We should take our duty seriously knowing this, Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Nothing directed at any one person on or off the BB. More of a rant about the condition of the church. I get to preach at a lot of different churches and one common denominator is that each will state "I'm right, everyone else is wrong." If you don't agree with my take on this verse, then you just don't know your Bible. hardly anyone is willing to say that OSAS nor the opposite can be proven. Read your bible, study it, pray over it, and go where God leaves you. The people who take the other side are not ignorant heathens who never read the scripture as most of us think.

No one is saying you are saved by works, regardless of what the OSAS say. No one is saying to go off and live in sin, regardkless of what the people on my side of the debate say. We both say saved by the blood of Christ and live in obediance to God.

What if calvanist and armenians actually worked together. If you notice neither term is in the Bible.

Actually, I think I change my stance, I have been convinced that once a person is saved they are always saved. I had actually never read the Bible before and now that I have I change my beliefs entirely.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Tell us why they do not apply to you. Prove it.

HP, that was not my quote. That was ML's quote.

 

[Amy.G]

I knew the dispensationalism heresy would come out at some point. So let’s be very clear, you have just admitted to me that there are verses that show a man can lose his salvation with the caveat being that they simply don't apply to you because Christ had not died yet, is that true?

I'm not dispensational. I have admitted no such thing.

But there is no denying that there is a difference between the Old Covenant and the New.


Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: So the blood covers all sins of the past, but not the future?

HP: Yes, according to Scripture.

Amy: How then can you be forgiven of any future sins?

HP: Just as Scripture states, repent, turn to Christ in faith for that cleansing, and make of yourself a new heart by turning from them in obedience to God.

Amy: Yes, we should repent and ask forgiveness, but only the blood cleanses from sin. Does Christ need to be crucified each time I sin in order for my sin to washed away? What does "once for all" mean?

HP: No, Christ does not have to be crucified each time one sins. We have had extensive threads on the atonement in the past but obviously we are overdue to start another one. Ones view of the Atonement drives one notions on the subject at hand. A false perception of what is and what is not accomplished by the Atonement will certainly affect ones understanding of many truths.
Quote:
HP: Listen to this little word “if’ again in another passage, 1Jo 1:7 “BUT IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.“ Notice that cleansing by the blood has a “BUT IF,” a clearly set forth CONDITION placed right before the promise. We would do well to consider this carefully.

Amy: If we walk in the light of course we will have fellowship with one another because we are living in God's will. How does this apply to salvation?

HP: It clearly implies that if one does NOT walk in the light, no cleansing from sins not repented of and not forsaken, are or will be forgiven or cleansed by the blood.

Amy: The word "cleanseth" if I'm not mistaken indicates an ongoing action, not a one time event. We are continually being cleansed from sin. That is what our advocate does.

HP: Not without your repentance and continued walking in the light as the verse in question clearly sets forth is a condition of that continued cleansing by the blood.
Quote:
HP: If one commits sins subsequent to forgiveness, one needs to fulfill the conditions for forgiveness just as one did when they were saved. Repent, do ones ‘first works,’ (DO YOU HEAR THAT?? “FIRST WORKS.”) and turn away from ones sins. Make for yourself a new heart. Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Amy: I can't make for myself a new heart.

HP: True in one sense and false in another. If God demands it there is a sense in which you can and are required by God to do it. God never demands an impossibility out of man. Never.

I often wonder what our children would grow up to be like if we treated them concerning sin and disobedience like some say God treats us, granting one pardon that covers all infractions of the law, once forever…. Promising to forget…..yet according to some keeps bringing up sins cast in the deepest sea of forgetfulness, just to dredge them up again to chastise us or to take away some reward on the account of them. Why do some post this great big “NO Fishing” sign where our sins are supposed to be buried, and then say God fishes there on a regular basis, as a matter of fact, every time a believer commits a new sin?? Hello Dr Timo!!:wavey:

Amy: That is something only God can do. He made for me a new heart when I put my faith in Christ. And because of that I will NOT die, ever. Jesus' blood either covers ALL of my sins or none of them.

HP: Let’ see if we can start a thread on the Atonement and explore this idea. Ones view on the Atonement again drives ones conclusions.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

HP: Let’ see if we can start a thread on the Atonement and explore this idea. Ones view on the Atonement again drives ones conclusions.

And I would also add HP that the doctrine of “Original Sin” was a motivating factor in Calvin’s development of OSAS theology.

In XC
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