Prove it.

[DHK]

HP: Yes, I believe I do understand the circumcision of the heart. Let me ask you. Are all that were obedient to circumcision in the OT going to be saved? Is it not true that many walked and were obedient with God but turned from their righteousness and in the end were divorced by God?

Why these clear verses Amy? Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.


Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Israel was treated as a nation. The verse is not directed to individuals. Because of Israel's disobedience as a nation, Israel (the ten northern tribes) went into captivity in 722 by the Assyrians, and Judah went into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar in 586. During their respective captivities many died physically that would not have happened had they obeyed the Lord. They suffered untold hardship that they would not have suffered had they not disobeyed the Lord.

This had nothing to do with spiritual salvation, but with physical deliverance from nations that would come and take them captive, destroy Jerusalem, destroy the Temple, and cause the deaths of many. Why should they die. Obey the Lord, and they wouldn't have to perish physically.

 

[DHK]

DHK and Martin Luther, how were they saved in the OT? If one was living in the OT and desired to be saved, who was in a position to give that advice and what advice would they have had for a man desiring to be saved?
Scriptural references accepted.

I gave Scriptural references already.
There is only one way to be saved: that is by faith.
Faith in God saves. The God of the OT is Jehovah. The Jehovah of the OT is Jesus of the NT.
Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Abraham was saved by his faith in Jehovah.
There is no difference in the manner of salvation.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

You saying Ezk. 18:31 apply to Israel only as nation, it has do nothing with individual. Well, you are wrong. Ezekiel chapter 18 did warning to God's PEOPLE if they rebel against God, they shall die in their sins. 'Death' is not speaking of flesh or physical, but spiritually. Samewise as in James 1:15-16 warn us, if we continue sinning, it shall bring us to DEATH. 'Death' speaks of spiritually which lead us to the second death in lake of fire.

Also, we should read throughout Hebrews chapter 3 and 4, also, we should read 1 Cor. 10:1-11 speak of Israel's example what happened to them in the wilderness. It warns us that, we should not be one of them what God did to them. Same with Exo. 32:33 that, God told Moses, when someone have sinned against Him, He would removed person's away from the book of life. Same thing as if we continue sinning against God daily, He have the right to remove our name away from the book of life.

There's plenty of conditional with warnings in book of Hebrews that we ought to read throughout, these give us the lessons what happened to Israel, that God punished them, that we should not be the one of them. We ought to endure to the end. If we fail to endure, then we shall be destruction according Matt. 7:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DHK]

DHK,

You saying Ezk. 18:31 apply to Israel only as nation, it has do nothing with individual. Well, you are wrong. Ezekiel chapter 18 did warning to God's PEOPLE if they rebel against God, they shall die in their sins. 'Death' is not speaking of flesh or physical, but spiritually.

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

My opinion?

Care explain on 1 Cor. 10:1-11, what it mean to you?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

Also, in Heb. 3:14 says, "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we HOLD the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the END."

Look at Heb. 3:19 says, "So WE(both Gentiles & Jews) see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Hebrews chapter 3 teaching us the lesson what happened to Israel in the wilderness of 40 years. Many of them were not enter into Canaan, because of their unbelief. same with Romans 11:19-23 tell us that, they were cut off because of unbelief. So, therefore, we should not be the one of them.

Heb. 3:14 tells us same with Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13 telling us that we ought to endure unto the END, then we shall be saved. Or otherwise, if we fail to endure, then we shall not be saved.

same with Matt. 7:13-14 telling us, that enter into the narrow road toward the door is hardship life. Most of them will not make it. That why enter into eternal life is not easy.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Martin Luther]

I didn't say Israel was cut off. I said the unbelievers were cut off. The tree represents ALL of Israel. The dead branches are those of Israel who were unbelievers.

OT saint was saved by grace through faith.

"Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness."

I'm shocked that your argument is that these trees or branches which did not believe were never 'saved'. It was you who called the time of Christ a "transitional period". Transitioning from what to what? I am glad that you have clarified that you think men are redeemed the same way. But if men can't loose their by grace salvation then how do you explain these verses.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


James 2:17-19 (

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.




Matthew 18:32-35

32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.



Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


If salvation is a matter of faith then why are the churches told to overcome?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Martin Luther,

Well saying. Amen. :thumbsup:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

You should be aware of 'overcometh' in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 in KJV, it is a present tense and conditional that we must meet for the requirment in order to have eternal life. If we fail to victory over them in our lifetime, then we cannot have eternal life at the end.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[webdog]

The point is, a man who calls himself a dispensationalist believes he is saved differently than O.T. saints.

You clearly don't know what dipensationalism teaches...

 

[Martin Luther]

Why do you keep asserting this untruth. It is like a false allegation. There is not a single dispensationalist that I know that believes that OT saints are saved any differently than NT saints. So just drop it. Stop making unfounded accusations; better yet go get a good book on dispensationalism (like that by Ryrie), and read up on the subject. I tire of your false allegations.

Now listen:
Romans 4:1-4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--Abraham was justified, not by works, but by believing in God. This Scripture makes it plain. It also makes it plain that this is the way that every man (NT or OT) is justified.

"To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace." That is no one is saved by works. One gets rewards by works, not salvation. Those rewards come because they are a debt owed because of the work done. There is no grace here.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Concerning both OT and NT saints salvation is to him that works not. It is for them that come to God by faith alone. It is for them that believes on him that justifies the ungodly. His faith is counted for righteousness. This was written about Abraham, and it applies to us as well. Faith in God brings righteousness or salvation. That is true in the OT, and is true in the NT.

So put to rest the false allegations, and start believing the Bible, and the truth about the those who call themselves dispensationalists.

Now listen, can Abraham be saved two ways?

James 2:22-24 (King James Version)

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Paul was talking with those who thought they could earn salvation without Christ, you can't. You must be obedient to Christ. Those who are obedient to Christ are those who are the faithful. You can not be saved with faith only.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You clearly don't know what dipensationalism teaches...

Hmmm.... This is what I get about dispensationalism.

Based on his study of Isaiah 32, Darby concluded that Israel, in a future dispensation, would enjoy earthly blessings that were different from the heavenly blessings experienced by the church. He thus saw a clear distinction between Israel and the church. Darby also came to believe in an “any moment” rapture of the church that was followed by Daniel’s Seventieth Week in which Israel would once again take center stage in God’s plan. After this period, Darby believed there would be a millennial kingdom in which God would fulfill His unconditional promises with Israel.1 According to Paul Enns, “Darby advanced the scheme of dispensationalism by noting that each dispensation places man under some condition; man has some responsibility before God. Darby also noted that each dispensation culminates in failure.” 2 Darby saw seven dispensations: (1) Paradisaical state to the Flood; (2) Noah; (3) Abraham; (4) Israel; (5) Gentiles; (6) The Spirit; and (7) The Millennium. By his own testimony, Darby says his dispensational theology was fully formed by 1833.

Beginning in the 1870s, various Bible conferences began to spring up in various parts of the United States. These conferences helped spread Dispensationalism. The Niagara conferences (1870—early 1900s) were not started to promote dispensationalism but dispensational ideas were often promoted at these conferences. The American Bible and Prophetic Conferences from 1878—1914 promoted a dispensational theology.

C. I. Scofield, a participant in the Niagara conferences, formed a board of Bible conference teachers in 1909 and produced what came to be known as, the Scofield Reference Bible. This work became famous in the United States with its theological annotations right next to the Scripture. This reference Bible became the greatest influence in the spread of dispensationalism.

Though the issue of “literal interpretation” is heavily debated today, many dispensationalists claim that consistent literal interpretation applied to all areas of the Bible, including Old Testament promises to Israel, is a distinguishing mark of dispensationalism. Dispensationalists usually argue that the progress of revelation, including New Testament revelation, does not cancel Old Testament promises made with national Israel. Although there is internal debate concerning how much the church is related to the Old Testament covenants and promises, dispensationalists believe national Israel will see the literal fulfillment of the promises made with her in the Old Testament.

The church does not replace or continue Israel, and is never referred to as Israel. According to dispensationalists, the church did not exist in the Old Testament and did not begin until the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Old Testament promises to Israel, then, cannot be entirely fulfilled with the church. Evidences often used by dispensationalists to show that the church is distinct from Israel include: (a) Jesus viewed the church as future in Matthew 16:18; (b) an essential element of the church—Spirit baptism—did not begin until the Day of Pentecost (compare 1 Cor. 12:13 with Acts 2); (c) Christ became Head of the church as a result of His resurrection (compare Eph. 4:15; Col. 1:18 with Eph. 1:19-23); (d) the spiritual gifts associated with the church (cf. Eph. 4:7-12; 1 Cor. 12:11-13) were not given until the ascension of Christ; (e) the “new man” nature of the church (cf. Eph. 2:15) shows that the church is a NT organism and not something incorporated into Israel; (f) the foundation of the church is Jesus Christ and the New Testament apostles and prophets (cf. Eph. 2:20); (g) the author, Luke, keeps Israel and the church distinct. On this last point, Fruchtenbaum states, “In the book of Acts, both Israel and the church exist simultaneously. The term Israel is used twenty times and ekklesia (church) nineteen times, yet the two groups are always kept distinct.”6

6. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology. 1994) 118.

 

[Martin Luther]

DHK and Martin Luther, how were they saved in the OT? If one was living in the OT and desired to be saved, who was in a position to give that advice and what advice would they have had for a man desiring to be saved?
Scriptural references accepted:thumbs:

Isaiah 56:6-7

6Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm shocked that your argument is that these trees or branches which did not believe were never 'saved'. It was you who called the time of Christ a "transitional period". Transitioning from what to what? I am glad that you have clarified that you think men are redeemed the same way. But if men can't loose their by grace salvation then how do you explain these verses.

Let's drop the statement I made about 'transitional period', please. That was probably a poor choice of words.

Those who do not believe are not saved. I don't understand your confusion.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

This is a direct reference to the atonement. Jesus atoned for this sins of these teachers, but they not believe. They denied the Lord.

James 2:17-19 (

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

No works = no faith

Faith produces works. Our good works are an outpouring of our faith in God.

Matthew 18:32-35

32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

One of the signs of a believer is forgiving others.
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
An unforgiving heart has not not been born again.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The ones who overcome are believers that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. Only unbelievers will see the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: No works = no faith

HP: When in Revelations God speaks of going back and doing your ‘first works’ over again, what is He speaking of?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Amy,

Rev. 2:11 tells us very clear, while in our lifetime, we must overcomng the world with our faith till we die, then we will not suffer the second death. or otherwise, if we fail to overcome them in our lifetime, we might end up in lake of fire. Rev. 2:11 is very clear conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Importantly,

When we read Revelation chapter 2 and 3. You notice sentence what Christ said: "He that hath an ear, LET him HEAR."

It means that every individual must know the warning and give heed attention. You notice every seven churches have the quote from Christ said, "He that hath an ear, LET him HEAR", it is clear speaking of warning. Therefore, it is conditional, if we take heed His warning, and do it.

Rev. 2:11 is very clear speak with warning from Christ's word, if we fail to overcome them, we shall suffer in the lake of fire -everlasting. Salvation is conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,

Rev. 2:11 tells us very clear, while in our lifetime, we must overcomng the world with our faith till we die, then we will not suffer the second death. or otherwise, if we fail to overcome them in our lifetime, we might end up in lake of fire. Rev. 2:11 is very clear conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

And we will overcome because we have the Spirit of promise living in us, by whom we are sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: When in Revelations God speaks of going back and doing your ‘first works’ over again, what is He speaking of?

You are wearing me out with these questions. I feel like I'm taking my finals.

You tell me what "first works are".

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Amy,

We ALL WILL overcame? Isn't a 100% guaranteed that ALL onced saved people are automatically "overcome" at the moment after we received Holy Spirit at once for good?

Rev. 2:11 speaks of our present lifetime while we are in spiritual warfare right now. We are still war with the world. Matt. 7:13-14 teaching us, that most of them will not make into narrow road toward door-eternal life. Most of them will FAIL.

"sealed" of Eph. 1:13 as what Baptists often use it. That passage of Eph. 1:13-14 do not mean that we are already guaranteed already saved at once for good that the Holy Spirit is alread 'sealed' in us. But, verse 14 clear telling us that we arebeing 'earnest' like as pay downpayment. For example when getting a car. We have to make agreement sign with an angent by sign to make promise to pay down monthly till all are pay off. If fail to make payment, then the bank have the right to take our car away and lose it.

Also, Paul warns us that we do NOT grieve the Holy Spirit because we are sealed UNTIL the "day of redemption". That mean, if we hurt the Holy Spirit by sinning, the Holy Spirit would be no longer remain in us, he would loose us away while we sinning, and we would not be redemption at Second Coming-Luke 21:28. That mean, we might not be saved at the end according Matt. 24:13.

Paul doesn't teaching unconditional salvation in his epistles.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!