Prove That Sunday Is the Christian Sabbath

[BobRyan]

Yes, very nice. Decades ago I don't think this would have been the case, but it's been a very long time since I've heard the Sunday Sabbath argument.

Would be nice if everyone knew it... because I just heard it from Andy Stanley and R.C. Sproul less than 4 years ago.

 

[JonC]

Would be nice if everyone knew it... because I just heard it from Andy Stanley and R.C. Sproul less than 4 years ago.

I guess we don't listen the same preachers. So much of our perspectives about such issues (about what is being taught) depend on our traditions (the teachers we choose to follow or listen to form our ideas about what is taught in general).

I don't think I've ever listened to a sermon by Andy Stanley or Sproul. I'm a conservative Baptist and they don't reflect my tradition. I don't mean this in a bad way, and cetainly am not being critical of your choice of preachers, nor am I arguing you shouldn't listen to Stanley and Sproul. We just run in different circles. My error was in emphasizing my own Christian environment as I'm sure you can find just about anything taught these days.

More to the issue, however, is no one here (on this forum) seems to be arguing that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.

 

[Salty]

THERE IS NO Baptist Confession of Faith. There are many.
The correct terminology would be "A Bap confession" or "Some Bap Confessions"

Bob Ryan - this is what happens when you take something out of context - Now, why is it so hard for you to understand the automonity of the local Baptist church - notice I did NOT capitalize church - as there is no such thing as "The Baptist Church"

 

[Salty]

saw this blog......

 

[Alcott]

Surely you know that the civil laws under theocracy do not apply outside of it

So no one should go to jail for theft?

And you answered only a small part of my post. I will quote it again for you

Alcott said: ↑

And is sabbath observance an outward or an inward identifying circumstance? And is [outward] circumcision still required?

BTW precisely where is God's International Dateline? You might be out there on a ship and not know whether it is evil to reef out a sail, depending on what day it is, or if you must continue on a wrong course to stay within his law.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Ten Commandments - "Just for Israel" Exodus 20:1-3
The NEW Covenant -- "Just for Israel" - Jeremiah 31:31-33

those kinds of arguments are short-lived misdirection.

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Sabbath as Sat was given just to israel to observe!

 

[BobRyan]

Sabbath as Sat was given just to israel to observe!

Because the Ten Commandments and the New Covenant are "just for Israel" in your mind?

"Sabbath as Saturday" -- does the Bible say it any other way?

===============================

Does the RCC teach that the Sabbath Commandment is only for Jews?

Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II calls for "civil penalties" for failure to observe the Papal Sabbath.

Dies Domini -

47. Even if in the earliest times it was not judged necessary to be prescriptive, the Church has not ceased to confirm this obligation of conscience, which rises from the inner need felt so strongly by the Christians of the first centuries. It was only later, faced with the half-heartedness or negligence of some, that the Church had to make explicit the duty to attend Sunday Mass: more often than not, this was done in the form of exhortation, but at times the Church had to resort to specific canonical precepts. This was the case in a number of local Councils from the fourth century onwards (as at the Council of Elvira of 300, which speaks not of an obligation but of penalties after three absences)(78) and most especially from the sixth century onwards (as at the Council of Agde in 506).(79) These decrees of local Councils led to a universal practice, the obligatory character of which was taken as something quite normal.(80)


Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


CCC -- Catholic Catechism


2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.


2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

====================
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

 

[BobRyan]

In Exodus 16 "tomorrow the the Sabbath" said God.
6 days a week manna... on the 7th day ... no manna.

Did Moses "make manna" all night and then rain it down on Israel - or was it "God"?

God said "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
God said "the 7th day is the Sabbath of YHWH" Ex 20:10

When we read "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 do we simply settle for not taking God's name in vain verbally while cursing God in thought? Clearly not! It is BOTH not taking His name in vain verbally AND not cursing God in thought.

So obvious we never ask those sorts of questions about the Commandments of God we are not already doubting.

And for taking God's name in vain...

So obvious we never ask those sorts of questions about the Commandments of God we are not already doubting.

And let's ask the "Baptist Confession of Faith" if they know the difference between moral law (Ten commandments) and "civil law" since you are now claiming you don't know it and apparently you think that if it is really sin to "take God's name in vain" then the death penalty must be given for it.

"what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith - will admit this about the TEN Commandments.

Surely you know that the civil laws under theocracy do not apply outside of it -- just as the Baptist Confession of Faith also admits.

Hence - no death penalty for those who "take God's name in vain".

We all knew that ... right?

Salty said: ↑
THERE IS NO Baptist Confession of Faith.

ok ...well.. someone should have told C.H. Spurgeon while he was alive... Probably too late now.

Section 19 of that document that calls itself the "Baptist Confession of Faith " as edited by C.H. Spurgeon

======================================


CH Spurgeon
“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”

from - The Perpetuity Of The Law Of God | The Charles Spurgeon Sermon Collection


Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)


The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)


Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

• The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

• Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
• 
  
• The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

 

[steaver]

Here is what I want to know from those who promote Saturday Sabbath Keeping;

As you can see there is an argument as to whether Christians should be observing the Sabbath. The argument is always the same and neither side ever changes their mind and we all read the very same Scriptures.

So the ONLY thing that is going to convince a Christian that they should be observing the Sabbath is what are the consequences if a Christian does not observe the Sabbath? If a Sabbath promoter can define the consequences then they will have something to passionately argue about, since I am sure they are concerned about the well being of those who do not observe the Sabbath, otherwise, why would they care? If they have no consequences to argue for then they are simply wasting their time debating over it, for God must not be concerned over it either.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is what I want to know from those who promote Saturday Sabbath Keeping;

As you can see there is an argument as to whether Christians should be observing the Sabbath. The argument is always the same and neither side ever changes their mind and we all read the very same Scriptures.

Which is why I gave the example of D.L. Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith - since they affirm bible details that many wish to ignore - and they are not Saturday Sabbath (7th day Sabbath as in the actual Bible command) proponents.

details matter.

The hope is that by going to sources that are keeping a certain distance from the actual text of scripture - people here will be more comfortable

 

[BobRyan]

for those that do not remember my many threads and many quotes of D.L.Moody on this topic


Fundamental Baptist Institute
Fundamental Baptist Institute
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody
presents

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17

.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.


THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

 

[Yeshua1]

Because the Ten Commandments and the New Covenant are "just for Israel" in your mind?

"Sabbath as Saturday" -- does the Bible say it any other way?

===============================

Does the RCC teach that the Sabbath Commandment is only for Jews?

Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II calls for "civil penalties" for failure to observe the Papal Sabbath.

Dies Domini -

47. Even if in the earliest times it was not judged necessary to be prescriptive, the Church has not ceased to confirm this obligation of conscience, which rises from the inner need felt so strongly by the Christians of the first centuries. It was only later, faced with the half-heartedness or negligence of some, that the Church had to make explicit the duty to attend Sunday Mass: more often than not, this was done in the form of exhortation, but at times the Church had to resort to specific canonical precepts. This was the case in a number of local Councils from the fourth century onwards (as at the Council of Elvira of 300, which speaks not of an obligation but of penalties after three absences)(78) and most especially from the sixth century onwards (as at the Council of Agde in 506).(79) These decrees of local Councils led to a universal practice, the obligatory character of which was taken as something quite normal.(80)


Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


CCC -- Catholic Catechism


2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.


2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

====================
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

Hebrews makes it very clear that Christians are no longer under Sabbath obligation as to a certain day, as jesus is now our Sabbath rest!

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews makes it very clear that Christians are no longer under Sabbath obligation as to a certain day, as jesus is now our Sabbath rest!

No text says "Jesus is our Sabbath rest" or Jesus is our sunshine etc.

Jesus said "Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27 ... just as the Sun .one of the two great lights made on day four of creation week., made for mankind

God is the maker -- but God is not the thing that He makes

God gave us the Sabbath and the Sun -- God is NOT the Sabbath and the Sun

 

[steaver]

Which is why I gave the example of D.L. Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith - since they affirm bible details that many wish to ignore - and they are not Saturday Sabbath (7th day Sabbath as in the actual Bible command) proponents.

details matter.

The hope is that by going to sources that are keeping a certain distance from the actual text of scripture - people here will be more comfortable

But my question is what's the consequence for the Christian that does not keep the Sabbath?

 

[Yeshua1]

But my question is what's the consequence for the Christian that does not keep the Sabbath?

According to Ellen White, they will be taking the mark of the Beast and lose salvation!

 

[Yeshua1]

No text says "Jesus is our Sabbath rest" or Jesus is our sunshine etc.

Jesus said "Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27 ... just as the Sun .one of the two great lights made on day four of creation week., made for mankind

God is the maker -- but God is not the thing that He makes

God gave us the Sabbath and the Sun -- God is NOT the Sabbath and the Sun

What does Hebrews 4:9-10 mean to you?

 

[BobRyan]

But my question is what's the consequence for the Christian that does not keep the Sabbath?

What's the consequence for bowing down to images? praying the dead? taking God's name in vain?

 

[steaver]

I'm asking you and your SDA beliefs. If it is simply another sin listed among them all then my understanding of scripture is there is no consequence for the Christian for not keeping the Sabbath. But the question remains for you, according to your SDA beliefs, is there any consequence for the Christian who does not keep the Sabbath?

 

[Salty]

But my question is what's the consequence for the Christian that does not keep the Sabbath?

Bob Ryan - why are you afraid to answer this question??

Yeshua1 stated that "According to Ellen White, they will be taking the mark of the Beast and lose salvation!|

Is this a correct quote of Ellen White? If so, do you agree with her?

 

[Alcott]

Did Moses "make manna" all night and then rain it down on Israel - or was it "God"?

No, Moses didn't make God.

Alcott said: ↑

And is sabbath observance an outward or an inward identifying circumstance? And is [outward] circumcision still required?

BTW precisely where is God's International Dateline? You might be out there on a ship and not know whether it is evil to reef out a sail, depending on what day it is, or if you must continue on a wrong course to stay within his law.[/qjote]