Proverbs 31:6-7. Specific Command or general principle?

[standingfirminChrist]

Christ is the strongest drink for the one who is perishing tim. If you don't believe that, well...

it is not me who is bitten.

If you want to choose to give alcohol to someone before giving them Christ, go ahead.

 

[Dale-c]

So, why should we not give strong drink to the King if it is the water of life?

SFIC you are so twisted.

I think you need to read "Pulpit Crimes" by Dr. James White.

I have not read it yet but I plan to. one of the things it deals with is the "criminal mishandling" of scripture.

You are so biased.
you do not care one bit about what the Bible says. You care about proving alcohol is wrong or whatever the particular thing it is you are arguing at the time.
You go to the Bible with your presupposition and then make it fit your beliefs rather than make your beliefs fit with the Bible.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Yes, you do need to read it.

Myself, I would not walk across the street to hear James White... much less read his books.

But those who choose to be led astray by his untruths will not seek understanding.

 

[gb93433]

Give strong drink to him that is ready to perish.

What child of God is ready to perish? Our faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross assures us that we will never perish.

Those who wish to be with the Lord and leave this earth. I always thought that when we died, worms would destroy our body but our spirit would never die.

So giving strong drink to the child of God is not commanded in that verse.

When I took a look at the Hebrew text I noticed that the verb was an imperative, which is a command. Is somehow the word of God wrong and you corrected it?

To the unsaved? What drink is stronger than the water of Life that comes from Christ alone?

Give the dying unsaved Christ and you have fulfilled the command in Proverbs 31.

Where are the Christians in the OT? I always thought they were first mentioned in the NT as being in Antioch?

Acts 11:26, "and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

I never knew the church existed in the OT. I always thought it only existed after Christ came to earth. Is Acts 11:26 wrong and need correction?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No, but you are wrong in your interpretation.

 

[Dale-c]

Myself, I would not walk across the street to hear James White... much less read his books.

Then it is you that does not seek understanding.
What is your beef with him?
You sound like you are familiar with him but do not like the man.

 

[gb93433]

You go to the Bible with your presupposition and then make it fit your beliefs rather than make your beliefs fit with the Bible.

I always thought Jesus was accused of being a drunkard in Matthew.

Mt. 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

I am not sure how he could have been accused of being a drunkard by drinking grape juice with sinners.

 

[Joe]

Proverbs 31
Sayings of King Lemuel
*1 The sayings of King Lemuel—an oracle [a] his mother taught him:
*2 "O my son, O son of my womb, 
****** O son of my vows,
*3 do not spend your strength on women, 
****** your vigor on those who ruin kings.
*4 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel— 
****** not for kings to drink wine, 
****** not for rulers to crave beer,
*5 lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, 
****** and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
*6 Give beer to those who are perishing, 
****** wine to those who are in anguish;
*7 let them drink and forget their poverty 
****** and remember their misery no more.


Here are the different translations of Proverbs 31:6
NET ©
Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, 1* and wine to those who are bitterly distressed; 2*
NIV ©
biblegateway Pro 31:6
Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;
NASB ©
biblegateway Pro 31:6
Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter.
NLT ©
biblegateway Pro 31:6
Liquor is for the dying, and wine for those in deep depression.
MSG ©
biblegateway Pro 31:6
Use wine and beer only as sedatives, to kill the pain and dull the ache
BBE ©
SABDAweb Pro 31:6
Give strong drink to him who is near to destruction, and wine to him whose soul is bitter:
NRSV ©
bibleoremusPro 31:6
Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress;
NKJV ©
biblegateway Pro 31:6
Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to those who are bitter of heart.

NET NOTES:
1*sn Wine and beer should be given to those distressed and dying in order to ease their suffering and help them forget.
2*tn Heb “to the bitter of soul.” The phrase לְמָרֵי נָפֶשׁ (lÿmare nafesh) has been translated “of heavy hearts” (KJV); “in anguish” (NIV); “in misery” (TEV); “in bitter distress” (NRSV); “sorely depressed” (NAB); “in deep depression (NLT); “have lost all hope” (CEV). The word “bitter” (מַר, mar) describes the physical and mental/spiritual suffering as a result of affliction, grief, or suffering – these people are in emotional pain. So the idea of “bitterly distressed” works as well as any other translation.

 

[Dale-c]

No, but you are wrong in your interpretation.

So, regardless of what the object of this verse is (real physical stong drink and wine or a metaphor for the water of life) why is it that kings should NOT drink it but the poor and dying should?

 

[Linda64]

I never knew the church existed in the OT. I always thought it only existed after Christ came to earth. Is Acts 11:26 wrong and need correction?

However the O.T Scriptures existed when the church began at Pentecost. As a matter of fact, when the N.T. epistles speak of the "Scriptures" it is speaking of the O.T. Scriptures. It is apparent that the O.T is what the Church used before the N.T was complete.

Acts 11:26 is the first instance when believers were called "Christians".

 

[Joe]

I always thought Jesus was accused of being a drunkard in Matthew.

Mt. 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

I am not sure how he could have been accused of being a drunkard by drinking grape juice with sinners.

The Pharisees were known for their lies, so it wouldn't take much imo. Both drinks resemble one another

 

[Dale-c]

Acts 11:26 is the first instance when believers were called "Christians" at Antioch.

Yes, but your assertion that Christians do not die physically is ridiculous.!

 

[Dale-c]

The Pharisees were known for their lies, so it wouldn't take much imo. Both drinks resemble one another

But it actually says he "came eating and drinking" It is a reference to the fact that he was in fact eating and drinking but in a moderate manner.
Moderate in both eating and in His drinking.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Then it is you that does not seek understanding.
What is your beef with him?
You sound like you are familiar with him but do not like the man.

My understanding comes from the Word of God not a man who twists the Word to limit Christ's atoning blood to only the elect.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I always thought Jesus was accused of being a drunkard in Matthew.

Mt. 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

I am not sure how he could have been accused of being a drunkard by drinking grape juice with sinners.

Scripture does not say Christ drank alcohol. Just associating with sinners caused Him to be falsely accused.

 

[Dale-c]

My understanding comes from the Word of God not a man who twists the Word to limit Christ's atoning blood to only the elect.

Give me a break! You are the bible twister.
You are the one that woul limit the attonement to only MOST of the sins of all the people.
but that is off topic.
Back to the topic.
You have not answered why it was bad for the king but good for the one perishing?

 

[Joe]

Wine and beer should be given to those distressed and dying in order to ease their suffering and help them forget

Kings are not to drink alcohol because they could forget and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.

Proverbs 31:

4 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel— not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer,
5 lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

So, regardless of what the object of this verse is (real physical stong drink and wine or a metaphor for the water of life) why is it that kings should NOT drink it but the poor and dying should?

Those who are Christ's have drank the water of life and as Christ proclaims shall never thirst again.

Those who are lost, are ready to perish have not drunk of the water of life that satisfies what the soul is truly thirsty for.

 

[Joe]

But it actually says he "came eating and drinking" It is a reference to the fact that he was in fact eating and drinking but in a moderate manner.
Moderate in both eating and in His drinking.

I agree he came eating and drinking but we don't know what he drank. If the Pharisees accused him of drinking alcohol, then he was probably not doing so. They constantly lied about him

 

[gb93433]

However the O.T Scriptures existed when the church began at Pentecost. As a matter of fact, when the N.T. epistles speak of the "Scriptures" it is speaking of the O.T. Scriptures. It is apparent that the O.T is what the Church used before the N.T was complete.

Acts 11:26 is the first instance when believers were called "Christians".

You completely missed the point.

Why refer to an OT verse and mention those who follow Christ in the same sentence as though that verse was referring to them. I am not aware of anyone who followed Christ in the OT. In fact those who first followed Christ were the apostles. The first Christians are mentioned in Acts.

The early church also used what Paul wrote and what came down by oral tradition along with other NT writings such as James.