Proverbs 31:6-7. Specific Command or general principle?

[standingfirminChrist]

Give me a break! You are the bible twister.
You are the one that woul limit the attonement to only MOST of the sins of all the people.
but that is off topic.
Back to the topic.
You have not answered why it was bad for the king but good for the one perishing?

I have answered it, you rejected the answer.

 

[Linda64]

Yes, but your assertion that Christians do not die physically is ridiculous.!

I did not say that Christians would not die physically---I simply quoted Jesus in John 3:16---"that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Physical death means separation of the body from the soul and spirit. Your soul either goes to heaven to be with Christ eternally, or to hell, separated from God eternally.

 

[Dale-c]

I did not say that Christians would not die physically

Umm, yeah, you really did because you said that verse does not talk about Christians because Christians will not perish and it is talking about those that perish.
You are being doubleminded here.
You are totally avoiding the clear meaning of the text.
This text it talking about physical death and you know it!

 

[Linda64]

Umm, yeah, you really did because you said that verse does not talk about Christians because Christians will not perish and it is talking about those that perish.
You are being doubleminded here.
You are totally avoiding the clear meaning of the text.
This text it talking about physical death and you know it!

Death means SEPARATION. I am not the one who is double-minded here. I know what I said and you love to misquote me and twist up everything I say.

The Hebrew word for "perish" in this verse, from Strong's:

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
6. 'abad
Search for H6 in KJVSL
dba 'abad aw-bad'
a primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy):--break, destroy(- uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, X and surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee.

It does not mean physical death here.

 

[gb93433]

I agree he came eating and drinking but we don't know what he drank. If the Pharisees accused him of drinking alcohol, then he was probably not. They constantly lied about him so they were probably consistent

If you were to read some old commenatries that was never an issue until about the time of prohibition. Sometime read some of Spurgeon's sermons and you may get a few surprises about what he says.

 

[Joe]

Umm, yeah, you really did because you said that verse does not talk about Christians because Christians will not perish and it is talking about those that perish.
You are being doubleminded here.
You are totally avoiding the clear meaning of the text.
This text it talking about physical death and you know it!

Absolutely :thumbs: The various translators agree with you also

Otherwise, the passage makes no sense. They are to drink up so they can feel better

 

[tinytim]

Ok, I'm back..

The application of the verse is to make the dying as comfortable as possible...

Today we give them pain killers to alleviate their pain.

This is the meaning of the verse.

It is about being compassionate to someone on their death bed.

Plain and simple. No hidden agenda. It was done with Alcohol back then... But today we have Morphine, and Oxycontin. The Drs prescribe it when a body is writhing in pain, and the person is allowed to die peacefully.

Ok? OK.

 

[Joe]

If you were to read some old commenatries that was never an issue until about the time of prohibition. Sometime read some of Spurgeon's sermons and you may get a few surprises about what he says.

You mean drinking alcohol was never an issue before prohibition? The Bible has warnings against drunkenness, and if you figure that everyone has differing opinions, there had to be some folks back then who believed drinking any amount of alcohol is sin. Since alcohol has medicinal properties, it's cruel imo to deny this medicine to someone who needs it.

Most everyone on the BB imo agrees fermentation can occur naturally at times, there is a reason God did this.


I'll check out Spurgeon's sermons, thanks

 

[gb93433]

SFIC

Why did you ignore the command in the Hebrew text of Proverbs 31:6?

You never addressed post #64 in regards to what I mentioned about the Hebrew text.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Hebrew word "abad" does not mean physical death.

 

[Joe]

Ok, I'm back..

The application of the verse is to make the dying as comfortable as possible...

Today we give them pain killers to alleviate their pain.

This is the meaning of the verse.

It is about being compassionate to someone on their death bed.

Plain and simple. No hidden agenda. It was done with Alcohol back then... But today we have Morphine, and Oxycontin. The Drs prescribe it when a body is writhing in pain, and the person is allowed to die peacefully.

Ok? OK.

Amen :thumbs:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

SFIC

Why did you ignore the command in the Hebrew text of Proverbs 31:6?

You never addressed post #64 in regards to what I mentioned about the Hebrew text.

gb,

You accuse me falsely. I do give the one that is perishing strong drink. I point them to Christ... not that which bites like a serpent and stings like an adder.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Things Hard to be Understood
Pr. 31:4-7
“It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.” – Pr 31:4-7

Why does the writer of this Proverb say to give strong drink to him that is ready to perish or to those with heavy hearts? The same passage reminds us that alcoholic beverages are dangerous and cause men to turn from God and to pervert judgment. Pr 20:1 warns that wine is a mocker and a deceiver. Pr 23:29-35 warns not to look upon the wine when it is alcoholic, because it can result in many evil things. Pr 31:6 describes the only proper use of an alcoholic beverage, which is as a narcotic to deaden pain. Verse 7 reminds us that alcoholic beverages cause forgetfulness and unconcern. If this is given as advice to the poor, it would be contrary to many other statements in the Bible. We believe verse 7 is given not as advice for the poor but as further warning to the king--—alcoholic wine will produce a drunken stupor. It is therefore to be used only by the foolish. If a poor man is wise, he will avoid alcoholic beverages entirely, will work diligently as Proverbs instructs (Pr 10:4; 12:11,24; 13:23; 20:13; 21:17; 22:29; 24:30-34; 28:19), and will walk faithfully with the Lord, trusting Him to meet his needs.

 

[gb93433]

You mean drinking alcohol was never an issue before prohibition? The Bible has warnings against drunkenness, and if you figure that everyone has differing opinions, there had to be some folks back then who believed drinking any amount of alcohol is sin. Since alcohol has medicinal properties, it's cruel imo to deny this medicine to someone who needs it.

Most everyone on the BB imo, least agrees fermentation can occur naturally at times, there is a reason God did this.


I'll check out Spurgeon's sermons, thanks

No, the lies of today

The arguments about wine being grape juice were not an issue among Christians and preachers. That sort of thing ws not common until a sermon was preached last century. It amazes me how many Christians buy into something without doing anything to verify its truth. Too many "check their brains at the door" and are very gullible. One only needs to go back a little in time and realize that Hitler who gained the support of those inthe church.

 

[Joe]

No, the lies of today

The arguments about wine being grape juice were not an issue among Christians and preachers. That sort of thing ws not common until a sermon was preached last century. It amazes me how many Christians buy into something without doing anything to verify its truth. Too many "check their brains at the door" and are very gullible. One only needs to go back a little in time and realize that Hitler who gained the support of those inthe church.

Interesting....thanks

 

[gb93433]

gb,

You accuse me falsely. I do give the one that is perishing strong drink. I point them to Christ... not that which bites like a serpent and stings like an adder.

Do you really believe that when Proverbs 31:6 was written, that verse was referring to pointing people to Christ? Can you give evidence of any followers of Jesus Christ who existed before the apostles?

Let me give you a short quote from Spurgeon's sermon on Proverbs 31:6, 7

THESE somewhat singular sentences were spoken by the mother of Lemuel to her son, who was probably Solomon. She had already said to him, “It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.” But such a king as Solomon was must have had an abundant store of wine of all kinds, so his mother urged him to give it to the sick and the sad and the poor who needed it more then he did. The Jews were in the habit of giving a cup of strong drink, usually with some potent drug in it, to, stupefy those who were about to, be executed. Perhaps that is the meaning of the words, “Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish.” We know too how persons, who have been very weak and ill, on the very borders of the grave, have often been medicinally relieved by wine given to them which they could not possibly purchase for themselves. I believe this is the literal meaning of the text, and that, if any man should be wicked enough to draw from it the inference that he would be able to forget his misery and poverty by drinking, he would soon find himself woefully mistaken; for if he had one misery before, he would have ten miseries afterwards; and if he was previously poor, he would be in still greater poverty afterwards. Those who fly to the bottle for consolation might as soon fly to hell to find a heaven; and, instead of helping them to forget their poverty, drunkenness would only sink them still more deeply in the mire.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Do you really believe that when Proverbs 31:6 was written, that verse was referring to pointing people to Christ? Can you give evidence of any followers of Jesus Christ who existed before the apostles?

Let me give you a short quote from Spurgeon's sermon on Proverbs 31:6, 7

THESE somewhat singular sentences were spoken by the mother of Lemuel to her son, who was probably Solomon. She had already said to him, “It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.” But such a king as Solomon was must have had an abundant store of wine of all kinds, so his mother urged him to give it to the sick and the sad and the poor who needed it more then he did. The Jews were in the habit of giving a cup of strong drink, usually with some potent drug in it, to, stupefy those who were about to, be executed. Perhaps that is the meaning of the words, “Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish.” We know too how persons, who have been very weak and ill, on the very borders of the grave, have often been medicinally relieved by wine given to them which they could not possibly purchase for themselves. I believe this is the literal meaning of the text, and that, if any man should be wicked enough to draw from it the inference that he would be able to forget his misery and poverty by drinking, he would soon find himself woefully mistaken; for if he had one misery before, he would have ten miseries afterwards; and if he was previously poor, he would be in still greater poverty afterwards. Those who fly to the bottle for consolation might as soon fly to hell to find a heaven; and, instead of helping them to forget their poverty, drunkenness would only sink them still more deeply in the mire.

Christ said the Scriptures testified of Him. I will believe Him before Spurgeon. But thanx anyway.

 

[gb93433]

The Hebrew word for "perish" in this verse, from Strong's:

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
6. 'abad
Search for H6 in KJVSL
dba 'abad aw-bad'
a primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy):--break, destroy(- uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, X and surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee.

It does not mean physical death here.

Strong's make no reference to the Qal usage of a participle. Strong's is about as good and simplistic of a lexicon as using a little kid's dictionary to define bat. A dictionary lists many meanings of bat. A kid's dictionary would kist only the most basic meanings.

BDB (which is viewed as the main Hebrew lexicon) on page 1 treats the Hebrew word ABD in Proverbs 31:6 as "perish, die, of individuals (mostly late), emphasis on mortality."

Typically using a good concordance to search out words using the same Hebrew word and same tense of the participle will do a much better job.

So I did a search where the same Hebrew word in the same tense and it was being used as a participle. The following verses use the same word as a Qal participle.

Deut 26:5
Deut 32:28
1Sam 9:20
Job 4:11
Job 29:13
Job 31:19
Psal 31:13
Psal 119:176
Prov 31:6
Eccl 7:15
Isai 27:13
Jere 50:6
Ezek 34:4
Ezek 34:16

 

[standingfirminChrist]

notice the man ready to perish in Deut. 26 did not die? Perish there does not mean die either.

 

[gb93433]

Christ said the Scriptures testified of Him. I will believe Him before Spurgeon. But thanx anyway.

The scriptures which Christ referred to is the OT. The OT dies refer to him especially in Isaiah. I see not one shred of evidence found of Christ in Proverbs. If so then can you steer me to one verse in Proverbs that testifies of Christ.

I see no evidence of Christ being mentioned in Esther either. I see no evidence of God being mentioned in Esther.

The entire OT as a collection certainly testifies of Christ but can you explain how each book (one by one on its own) of the OT testifies of Christ?