Psalm 5:5b vs. John 3:16

[Paul from Antioch]

Please explain Psalm 5:5b ("Thou (God) hatest all workers of iniquity") in the light of John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Great question! You might add Psalms 7:11 to the mix as well.

 

[Lodic]

This seeming contradiction comes when we believe that God hates in the same way that humans hate. When people hate, it's very emotional. God's hatred is a judicial act from the Righteous Judge. His justice demands that sin be punished. Fortunately, in His love for the world, He made it possible for sinners to be reconciled to Him when "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

 

[Van]

I think Lodic's answer is both true and revealing. Clearly scripture teaches God both loves sinners and hates sinners simultaneously.

Psalms 11:5
The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Here is a verse that teaches exactly what Lodic presented, for God is Holy to His core (soul) and therefore "hates" all unholiness.
The same Hebrew word is used of God "hating" evil, (Zechariah 8:17) thus it is not directed personally but at all unholiness. God hates those who lie. So while God hates those whose characteristics include unholiness, He loves humanity such that He offers "holiness" to those who choose to love His Son.

 

[37818]

The issue is not that God hates the wicked as in Psalms 5:5 but that God's love in John 3:16 is conditional not unconditional love. We also are not meriting God's love in John 3:16.

 

[canadyjd]

The issue is not that God hates the wicked as in Psalms 5:5 but that God's love in John 3:16 is conditional not unconditional love. We also are not meriting God's love in John 3:16.

In what is God’s love conditional?

God is Love, the very essence of love. How can God’s existence as the essence of love be conditional?

peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

'Jacob I have loved; but Esau I have hated.' The remarkable thing is not that God should have hated Esau; there were ever so many reasons why He might do that. The wonder is that He should have loved Jacob.
God's love is not conditional. God loved Paul (Galatians 2:20) who describes himself as the very 'chief of sinners' (1 Timothy 1:15). God's love is free and electing. He chose a people 'in love' for salvation and gave them to the Son to redeem. Eight times in John 17, the Lord Jesus declares that the Father has given Him a people, and He declares that He has lost none of them. He also gave them to the Holy Spirit to seal for the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14). They can never be lost.

So how does this square with John 3:16? The word 'so' in that verse is the Greek word houto, which does not mean 'so much,' but rather it means 'in this way.' This is how God loved the world; He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. And everyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. That is the will of the Father (John 6:40); not one will be turned away. But when they trust in Christ it is because God has loved them from eternity and has drawn them to Him with lovingkindness.

 

[Van]

Let us consider this questionable claim:

"Eight times in John 17, the Lord Jesus declares that the Father has given Him a people,..."​

If you read John 17, clearly at least four times (John 17:2, 6, 9 and 24) Jesus declares that the Father has given individuals to Him. But "a people" is not found anywhere in the chapter.

In John 17:7 we might include individuals in the scope of "all" given to Jesus, but it is an inference. Can anyone find the other three places where Jesus declares the Father has given Him individuals, or where "a people" is to be found.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

John 17:2, 6 (twice), 9, 11, 12, 24. If they are not people, what are they? They are the great crowd of Revelation 7, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. And they stand before the throne and confess that salvation belongs to God.

 

[graciecat]

This is my favorite verse. I remember my mother insisting me to memorize it when I was a kid but, I never questioned the meaning.

 

[SovereignGrace]

John 17:2, 6 (twice), 9, 11, 12, 24. If they are not people, what are they? They are the great crowd of Revelation 7, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. And they stand before the throne and confess that salvation belongs to God.

He must be referring to corporate election?

 

[Van]

John 17:2, 6 (twice), 9, 11, 12, 24. If they are not people, what are they? They are the great crowd of Revelation 7, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. And they stand before the throne and confess that salvation belongs to God.

Right, seven now is the same as eight. And "a people" is the same as "people." On and on folks, on and on the falsehoods flow from the effort to alter the text to support false doctrine. Jesus never declared the Father had given Him "a people."

 

[Van]

He must be referring to corporate election?

Ever notice how many mind readers profess their abilities, while usually attributing falsehoods to others?

Psalms 11:5
The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Here is a verse that teaches exactly what Lodic presented, for God is Holy to His core (soul) and therefore "hates" all unholiness.

The same Hebrew word is used of God "hating" evil, (Zechariah 8:17) thus it is not directed personally but at all unholiness. God hates those who lie. So while God hates those whose characteristics include unholiness, He loves humanity such that He offers "holiness" to those who choose to love His Son.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Right, seven now is the same as eight. And "a people" is the same as "people." On and on folks, on and on the falsehoods flow from the effort to alter the text to support false doctrine. Jesus never declared the Father had given Him "a people."

Seven is nearer than four. And what are you going to do with the incontrovertible fact that seven times in a single chapter we are told that God gave to Christ a people to redeem, which He has done and not one of them will be lost (save Judas Iscariot)? The same doctrine, of course, is taught in John 6:37, 39; 10:28-29.

And of those whom the Father chose and gave to Christ to redeem it is written:
'But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him that called you out of darkness into His marvellous light;
who once were not a people but are now the people of God........' 1 Peter 2:9-10; c.f. Hosea 1:9-10; 2:23.

 

[Van]

Seven is nearer than four. And what are you going to do with the incontrovertible fact that seven times in a single chapter we are told that God gave to Christ a people to redeem, which He has done and not one of them will be lost (save Judas Iscariot)? The same doctrine, of course, is taught in John 6:37, 39; 10:28-29.

And of those whom the Father chose and gave to Christ to redeem it is written:
'But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him that called you out of darkness into His marvellous light;
who once were not a people but are now the people of God........' 1 Peter 2:9-10; c.f. Hosea 1:9-10; 2:23.

Not once in John 17 did it say "God gave to Christ a people to redeem!" Not once. Full stop.

Calvinism is based on reading into scripture a doctrine never found in scripture. Hence the "given a people" which is the false claim of Calvinists.

Read again the verse cited, those chosen were once not a people!!! Thus those individuals were not chosen before creation, but only after they lived as "not a people." Then, during their lifetime, they were individually chosen and placed in Christ, becoming a chosen people!!! All those in Christ, a chosen people, all those not in Christ, not a chosen people. So simple a child could understand. Scripture says God is reconciling the world (humanity) thus He is continuing to choose and place into Christ spiritually individuals, who then become "a chosen people" the bride of Christ, the body of Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Not once in John 17 did it say "God gave to Christ a people to redeem!" Not once. Full stop.

So who were these 'non-people'? They were anthropoi, 'men,' 'people' (John 17:6). In the ESV, it says, 'I have manifested Your name to the people whom you gave Me out of the world.' To be sure, before Christ redeemed them they were just random people, but in the mind of God, even before the foundation of the world, they were the people, the very children, of God. 'In love having predestined us to adoption as sons by Christ Jesus.' These are the people whom the Father gave to the Son before time began (Titus 1:2) and whom the Son redeemed at measureless cost in time.

On and on folks, on and on, the falsehoods flow from the effort to alter the text to support false doctrine.

 

[Van]

So who were these 'non-people'? They were anthropoi, 'men,' 'people' (John 17:6). In the ESV, it says, 'I have manifested Your name to the people whom you gave Me out of the world.' To be sure, before Christ redeemed them they were just random people, but in the mind of God, even before the foundation of the world, they were the people, the very children, of God. 'In love having predestined us to adoption as sons by Christ Jesus.' These are the people whom the Father gave to the Son before time began (Titus 1:2) and whom the Son redeemed at measureless cost in time.

On and on folks, on and on, the falsehoods flow from the effort to alter the text to support false doctrine.

Spot on, and on and on. One false claim after another. No individual was given to Christ before creation. That is just another false claim of Calvinism. If they had been given individually, then they would never have been "not a people." The inability to understand scripture is at the core of Calvinism's adoption.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Spot on, and on and on. One false claim after another. No individual was given to Christ before creation. That is just another false claim of Calvinism. If they had been given individually, then they would never have been "not a people." The inability to understand scripture is at the core of Calvinism's adoption.

On and on and on goes @Van's nonsense. He writes:

Not once in John 17 did it say "God gave to Christ a people to redeem!" Not once. Full stop.

John 17:6. 'I have manifested Your name to the people whom you gave Me out of the world. Yours they were, and You gave them to Me.'
'Nuff said.

 

[Van]

On and on and on goes @Van's nonsense. He writes:

John 17:6. 'I have manifested Your name to the people whom you gave Me out of the world. Yours they were, and You gave them to Me.'
'Nuff said.

On and on folks, on and on. The people who had been given to Christ we given to Christ during His incarnation. When were His apostles given to Jesus. What does scripture say. Out of the world, thus first existing in the world. On and On folks, Calvinists cannot comprehend the very words they quote...

 

[Martin Marprelate]

On and on folks, on and on. The people (and Van now tacitly admits there were people) who were given to Christ were given before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).. They were redeemed by Christ, of course, in time.
'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day' (John 6:37-39).
The Lord Jesus came down from heaven to do the will of His Father. Therefore He must have received His Father's command before He left heaven. That will was that He should not lose any of the people whom the Father had entrusted to Him, as described seven times in John 17. Therefore they cannot have been given to Christ during His incarnation, but at some point before, namely before the foundation of the world.
On and on, folks. @Van cannot comprehend the very words he quotes.