psychology

[hrhema]

Let me say this. TElling someone that the scriptures is sufficient for everything and then turning around and saying it is okay for a person to seek medical help for a physical problem smacks of hypocrisy.

The Bible says God is our healer. He is our great physician. Isaiah wrote that by his stripes we are healed. IT is written that he has borne our sorrows and our infirmities. Peter said by his stripes we were healed.

Every person on this thread who says it is wrong for a person to go to take medications for mental problems etc needs to go and throw away your aspirins, and any other medication you have. If scripture should be sufficient for mental problems then scripture should be sufficient for our healing of physical problems.

Preach the Word the next time one of your children is sick then don't rush them to the local doctor to get medicine for them, trust God.
Scriptures should be sufficient for them. The next time you have a headache don't reach for the aspirin, ibuprofen etc but just suffer it out and trust the scriptures. I tell everyone on this thread the same thing. If you expect those with depression or anxiety or ADD or Bi-polarism to trust in the scriptures for sufficiency then you need to trust God to heal your bodies totally and
completely. The next time one of you break a bone or cut yourself seriously or get diagnosed with cancer then don't go have the bone set or don't go have stitches or don't go have surgery or chemo. Trust the scriptures for they should be sufficient enough for your healing.

Is there any takers.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Karen:
I do not see it as an unwillingness to address or be ruled by Scripture. Please understand that for anyone, most certainly me, to speak in any way of my personal experience in this matter is very hard. To say anything leaves one open to the presupposition that one is not trusting Scripture and has deep-rooted sin. How different than if I had a broken leg. Yet I do not see it as in opposition to Scripture. I will say that there is no short proof-text I can quote.

You must also understand that we who stand for the final and absolute sufficiency of Scripture are accused of being merciless and hard-hearted when that is far from teh case. Our loyalty to truth does not make us monsters. I would contend it makes us the most loving people on this earth. You ask about a broken leg -- that is a medical problem. We have argued from teh beginning that medical solutions are fine for medical problems. We are not talking about medical problems.

Note Job, who despairs of life. And his three comforters who tell him to straighten up his thoughts are corrected by God. Elijah was ministered to directly by angels.

An in both of these cases, the remedy was their view of God. John 37-42 is the best counseling portion of Scripture for those who are depressed like Job was. His comforters did not tell him to straighten up his thoughts. His comforters told him to look for causative sin, acts that would have brought the judgment of God. God is the one who told him to change his thinking. When you read 37-42, you cannot help but see that Job is clearly told to change the way he thinks about God. He is not instructed to take mind altering drugs and substances. He is commanded to think differently about God.

I guess I do have problems with the John MacArthur definition of it you present.
Yes, Scripture is sufficient, but it does not tell you to avoid medicine when you need it.

And both MacArthur and our side would agree with this. You are arguing past us to the absurb. We disagree with that approach. When you show that a person's depression/OCD/whatever is a medical issue, then we agree that you treat it medically. In the vast majority of cases, this is not being shown. It is being accepted uncritically.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Let me say this. TElling someone that the scriptures is sufficient for everything and then turning around and saying it is okay for a person to seek medical help for a physical problem smacks of hypocrisy.

Not if you have understood what we are saying. We are admitting medical solutions for medical problems. That is not hypocrisy. That is biblical. It is evidenced in Scripture that for medical problems we seek medical solutions. But the problems here being addressed are not medical problems and that is where the rub comes in for us. We are not willing to turn to medical issues to solve spiritual problems.

Every person on this thread who says it is wrong for a person to go to take medications for mental problems etc needs to go and throw away your aspirins, and any other medication you have. If scripture should be sufficient for mental problems then scripture should be sufficient for our healing of physical problems.

Clearly poor thinking on your part. And a misapplication of Isaiah 53 to top that.

When you can demonstrate the medical nature of a problem, I will be the first to suggest medical help. However, I cannot in good conscience recommend or condone someone abusing their bodies by ingesting foreign substances when there are better solutions. We are calling for radical biblicism here.

We are also calling for you to talk about the same thing we are talking about -- namely, non-medical issues.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
So-called Preach the Word still has the cradle marks on his backside. All he can do is insult others intelligence and learning. It appears to be a trademark of funnymentalism.

Shouldn't there be a moderator for this forum???

Cheers,

Not so American or funnymentalist, Jim

Jim, Why not address the points that he brings out? I have not seen you tell us why Scripture is not sufficient to deal with spiritual/mental/emotional problems that we are talking about. You suggest a non-biblical solution but you have yet to tell us (at least so far as I have seen) why the biblical solution is not the one that should be pursued.

Tell how you reconcile the sufficiency of Scripture with the use of non-scriptural means for the addressing of these types of problems. Do you not believe that Scripture is sufficient to equip us for every good work?

 

[Ransom]

Girla said:

Is there such a thing as Christian psychology?

Now that I've read all seven pages (so far) of this thread, it occurs to me that no one has yet defined what they mean by "psychology." When Girla asks the above question, when PTW answers "no" and Brian answers "yes," how do we know what they are affirming or denying, and that indeed they are all speaking of the same thing?

If Girla is still reading this: Please define the term "psychology" for us.

 

[Jim1999]

A simple definition of psychology is the scientific study of the human mind and human behaviour.

I can't ever recall saying the scripture was not sufficient. I did say, that John 3:16 was not always the answer.

I did say, that one's approach to psychological problems is not always...1, 2, 3...the bible says so, so just do it. It is not that simple. Wish it was.

The Christian pastor trained in pastoral counselling and, if you will, psychology, at least the basics, will address the situation before him differently.

By following a pattern of questions, he will try to determine what the real problem is. The bible is not a textbook on how to do it. Yes there are examples of people dealing with people, and Job is a very good example of this.

I have said over and over again, psychology is a TOOL, and we ought to use every tool available to help people help themselves.

I have never engaged in a counselling session where the bible has not been used, and prayer always opened and closed a session. So, I am not denying the value of scripture at all, and never have. If you think I have, you have failed to read what I posted.

Just as "easy believism" is not the answer for the lost soul, telling a drunk he drank too much alcohol is not a solution either. We must dig much deeper to find out why he drinks, what drinking does for him, and what expectations he has by drinking. It is a long process that goes beyond, Get Saved and all will be fine. That is what I am saying.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
I did say, that John 3:16 was not always the answer.

On this we agree.

I did say, that one's approach to psychological problems is not always...1, 2, 3...the bible says so, so just do it. It is not that simple. Wish it was.

I am not sure that we agree on this. If you are suggesting that the Bible does not give the answer and that obedience to God in his word is not the answer, then I must disagree. If you are suggesting that we need to present the Bible's truths with tact and clarity, then I agree. I actually think it is a lot simpler than many people are willing to believe.

By following a pattern of questions, he will try to determine what the real problem is. The bible is not a textbook on how to do it. Yes there are examples of people dealing with people, and Job is a very good example of this.

The "real problem" is sinful choices (whether of thought or action) is always a choice to disobey. That choice may be affected by different things, such as family history, circumstances, tolerances of wrong thinking, habituations, and the like. But it always boils down to sinful choices.

Just as "easy believism" is not the answer for the lost soul, telling a drunk he drank too much alcohol is not a solution either. We must dig much deeper to find out why he drinks, what drinking does for him, and what expectations he has by drinking.

But at the root of this is a sinful choice. He made have made that choice very hard by making the wrong choice too many times (addiction/enslavement). No one is forced to drink. They make a choice to lift that glass/bottle to their lips. And at any time it is important enough to them, they can stop. The problem with addiction is that a physical craving has been developed by sinful choices. The body however is to be subjected to the law of God. It is to be brought into submission.

So we might say that a person drinks because their family was a drunkard (something demonstrably untrue since I have alcoholics in my own family). My grandfather was a big drinker, as were some of my grandmother's brothers, but not one of his four boys are. This is a problem that is a lot easier than most make it. Alcholism and drug addiction is a choice to disobey God. Once we take it out of that realm, we have removed hope for a solution.

It is a long process that goes beyond, Get Saved and all will be fine. That is what I am saying.

Salvation does not make "Everything all better" but it is the answer according to passages like 1 Cor 6:10. When someone comes to me with a drug addiction, which I have dealt with on a number of occasions, the first step is always salvation and the lordship of Christ.

 

[swaimj]

Ransom (etc) commented:

Now that I've read all seven pages (so far) of this thread, it occurs to me that no one has yet defined what they mean by "psychology."

I stated in my first post that psychology is a secular attempt to interpret the soul. I objected to psychology because I do not think science can look into the soul and evaluate it with full accuracy. Notice Jim 1999's definition of psychology from the prededing post:

A simple definition of psychology is the scientific study of the human mind and human behaviour.

I think this is a good definiton of psychology as well, but I question whether the intentions of psychology, as per the definition, are possible.

First, he says that psychology is the scientific study of the human mind. Can this be? Is the mind of man a physical entity which can be scientifically studied? Or is the mind of man a spiritual entity which is beyond the understanding of man? Many have spoken in this thread of scientific studies of the brain and how they "prove" that certain conditions of the mind are relatied to physical conditions of the brain. But there is a question of cause and effect here. Does the condition of the brain cause the behaviour or does the practice of the behaviour cause the condition of the brain? There is no positive proof either way. To conclude cause and effect one way or the other is to make an assumption.

This line of argumentation also equates the mind with the brain, an equating which I reject. The brain is physical, but a person's mind is spiritual. Though they are related by the fact that the mind resides in the brain, they are not the same. A person's brain is a physical entity which will pass away, but the mind is spiritual and will live forever.

Second he says that psychology is the scientific study of human behaviour. With this I have no problem. In some ways, psychology is simply statistical analysis. If psychologists study 200 people with a particular mental problem and they find that 90% of them have a particular experience in common, they are providing insight into a possible cause of the problem. I think that is helpful and I have no objection to it. In this way, psychology is operating within the sphere of human ability to understand and can provide insight into causes.

So, once again, I do not reject psychology altogether. But when psychology begins to diagnose problems of the spirit as problems of the physical (i.e. diagnosing a problem of the mind as a disease), it is wrong. The secularist is completely incapable of understanding the spiritual. Christians who buy into their reasoning and their cures are unwise.

 

[rufus]

I have a Doctor's Degree in Nouthetic Psychology, which comes straight out of the Bible (Romans 15:14).

Nouthetic may be translated "admonish, counsel, or confront."

It is straightforward Biblical Counseling, using Biblical Pyschology.

The over 250 secular psychologies and therapies, are based on humanistic assumptions and therefore leave out spiritual principles.

Rufus

 

[BrianT]

I think that most of us are probable more in agreement that we realize. I don't think anyone here is saying to NOT use Biblical principles. Jim is entirely correct in repeating that psychology is a TOOL. Also, I note that no one here is necessarily arguing for pure secular psychology - the topic is *Christian* psychology, and that by definition would *include* application of Biblical principles.

But PTW wants a response to the scriptures provided, so I will respond.

2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

First, I notice that passage says scripture is "profitable" for making man "throughly furnished unto all good works". It does not say it is exclusive and all-sufficient.

2 Pet 1:3 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue"

I must admit I don't even know why this verse was brought up. God has given unto us "all things" that pertain unto life and godliness. This is not talking about only scripture. God has given us food for life. He gave us the ability to make and use tools. He gave us, directly or indirectly, clothing and shelter. He gave us friends and family. He gave us the ability to learn about the world around us and apply it improve our lives, technically, medically, etc. Scripture doesn't give us these things. This verse does not talk about the exclusivity and all-sufficiency of scripture for dealing with life.

But since we're talking about scripture, I think of Eph 6. If scripture was all-sufficient to be "throughly furnished" (I *really* want to make a joke about rocking chairs and kitchen tables

), would the Christian be throughly furnished if he had only the "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God", and not the other items?

Scripture, *even according to scripture*, is meant to be supplemented.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by rufus:
I have a Doctor's Degree in Nouthetic Psychology, which comes straight out of the Bible (Romans 15:14).

Nouthetic may be translated "admonish, counsel, or confront."

It is straightforward Biblical Counseling, using Biblical Pyschology.

The over 250 secular psychologies and therapies, are based on humanistic assumptions and therefore leave out spiritual principles.

Rufus

Thank you for making that distinction. That is exactly what needed to be said here! God bless you in your work.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by BrianT:
First, I notice that passage says scripture is "profitable" for making man "throughly furnished unto all good works". It does not say it is exclusive and all-sufficient.

"All good works" means there is nothing that we shoudl be doing or thinking that is not addressed. If it equips us for "every good work" or "all good works" (depending on your translation), it is all-inclusive. Nothing else is necessary.

2 Pet 1:3 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue"

I must admit I don't even know why this verse was brought up. God has given unto us "all things" that pertain unto life and godliness. This is not talking about only scripture.

Again, you missed the little phrase "through the knowledge of him ..." a knowledge which comes only from Scripture. We know of Christ no other way. There is no other avenue of knowledge. Scripture is it and in the knowledge gained from Scripture is everything necessary for life and godliness.

If scripture was all-sufficient to be "throughly furnished" (I *really* want to make a joke about rocking chairs and kitchen tables

), would the Christian be throughly furnished if he had only the "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God", and not the other items?

Scripture, *even according to scripture*, is meant to be supplemented.

All of those things referenced are inseparably connected to Scripture, so no, it does not need to be supplemented; it needs to to practiced.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrianT:
First, I notice that passage says scripture is "profitable" for making man "throughly furnished unto all good works". It does not say it is exclusive and all-sufficient.

"All good works" means there is nothing that we shoudl be doing or thinking that is not addressed. If it equips us for "every good work" or "all good works" (depending on your translation), it is all-inclusive. Nothing else is necessary.

</font>[/QUOTE]But again, the passage doesn't say that scripture alone is what does this, only that it is "profitable" to attain that result. Exercise is "profitable" for physical health, but it is not exclusively the only way to physical health - supplementing exercise with proper nutrition and good sleeping habits are other tools that can help as well.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />2 Pet 1:3 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue"

I must admit I don't even know why this verse was brought up. God has given unto us "all things" that pertain unto life and godliness. This is not talking about only scripture.

Again, you missed the little phrase "through the knowledge of him ..." a knowledge which comes only from Scripture. We know of Christ no other way. There is no other avenue of knowledge. Scripture is it and in the knowledge gained from Scripture is everything necessary for life and godliness.
</font>[/QUOTE]Yet scripture itself tells us that things outside of scripture tell us of him as well (Rom 1:20).

Pastor Larry, I'll present my side of this, but I'm not going to debate it. I don't mean to be blunt, but unless someone has experienced something like I and many others have, the theoretical arguments don't carry much weight, and you are not going to be able to disprove what happened to me.

Imagine a bolt rusted in place that you want to remove. The proper, even "exclusive" tool for a bolt is a wrench. But imagine that you apply your wrench, and you just can't get that bolt to budge no matter how hard you try. So you pull out your hammer, and give the bolt a few hard bangs to break the bolt's grip. When you again apply the wrench, the bolt begins to turn, and you can eventually remove it. In my case, the bolt was my faulty thinking, Biblical principles was the wrench, and psychology and drugs were the hammer that made use of the wrench possible. Without the hammer, my bolt would still be stuck. I'm sorry if you don't think the hammer should be used, but I am grateful for it and that's not going to change.

[ February 12, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
1. All he can do is insult others intelligence and learning.

2. Shouldn't there be a moderator for this forum???

Cheers,

Not so American, Jim

1. No, I have given Scriptural reasons why I object to psychology. If that is deemed by some as an insult, I guess I should glory in it. What do you think?

2. There are three: C.S. Murphy, Pastor Bob 63, and myself.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by NKJV The Word of God:
PTW,
How many college level psychology courses have you taken?

Three. How many do I have to take to earn credibility to discuss this issue with you?

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Once again I demand that you cease in these slaps at my and others lack of faith in the scripture. I for one have not said scripture is incomplete or lacking but that there are tools that work alongside of scripture.
Murph

If Scripture is sufficient, then psychology (and all the humanism that goes along with it) are worthless. It might be a tool. Ours should be Scripture.

Also, I just want someone to point out where Scripture is lacking. This is the Fundamentalist Forum after all.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Telling someone that the scriptures is sufficient for everything and then turning around and saying it is okay for a person to seek medical help for a physical problem smacks of hypocrisy.

Actually, it doesn't. You see, the Scriptures admonish us to seek medical help. The needs of a person's spirit is first salvation. The restoration of the soul is found in growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and conforming our minds to his revealed truth.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
Just as "easy believism" is not the answer for the lost soul, telling a drunk he drank too much alcohol is not a solution either. We must dig much deeper to find out why he drinks, what drinking does for him, and what expectations he has by drinking. It is a long process that goes beyond, Get Saved and all will be fine. That is what I am saying.

Okay, I think we have a bona fide example of dealing with an issue. Pastor Larry, if you are reading this, why don't you give your take and I will give mine.

It appears that Jim is saying that he probes with many questions to find the root problem with the drunk. Jim, if you are not saying this, please clarify.

 

[BrianT]

PTW and Pastor Larry, do you think it is WRONG (ie. a 'sin') to use psychology and/or drugs, even as a supplement or preventative measure for things like depression, anxiety attacks, manias, phobias, etc? Like if I go through a few days where I'm feeling a bit depressed, and I take a couple of my anti-depressants and/or read a few pages in one of my psychology workbooks to help me feel better and to prevent it from getting worse?

Have I sinned if I take a pill intead of applying "Biblical principles" (whatever that specifically means) instead? Have I sinned if I watch a funny movie or get my wife to rub my back or listen to some beautiful music to lift my spirits?

 

[Terry_Herrington]

PTW,
It is not a matter of how many psychology courses you have taken in order to discuss the issue with me. I was just wondering if you had taken any since you seem to have such a disdain for it.

I am by no means any kind of an expert on the subject, however, I took more psychology than any other course in earning my Bachelor's degree (18 hours in all). I found it fasinating. It has helped me understand some of possibly how and why we think like we do. I think that all school teachers should be required to take at least 3 courses in pyschology, especially Educational Psychology and Child Psychology.

I am not, by any means, saying that psychology is in any way equivalent to God's Word or that it should take precedence over what God says. However, there is plenty of things we learn or come into contact with in our lives, that is not Christian, that aids us.

An example would be seeing a physician. My wife had cancer surgery in 1988. I was much more concerned with this doctor's medical skill as opposed to what church he attended, or what his theology was. Just like that doctor, I do not have to embrace all of psychology to benefit from some of it.

Swallow the peanuts; spit out the shells.