psychology

[Molly]

I am wondering how much of the mental disorders are actually medical conditions...as opposed to spiritual conditions. I realize there sre actual ways to know if there are chemical imblances,but all these other *disorders*....what are they?

Like I have said all along,we need more of God's word permeating our lives,less of man's wisdom,more of God's. We need intelligent men who are capable of preaching the Word accurately from the pulpit...we need strong bible believing christians who know the word and are able to counsel those in need...we need sin confronted in our churches so that the purity of the church remains...we need people actually living out the Word,so that the world can see a difference. This relates to the area of mental disorders and the psycholigized man. I think we have enough of those things,let's give God's word a chance now.


That should have been where we went to begin with......so many times we try everything else before running to Who and what we need more than anything.

 

[Jim1999]

Dr. Vernon Grounds, who received his BD from Faith Theological Seminary, his PhD from Drew University and his DD from Wheaton and was President of Conservative Baptist Seminary, and was a lecturer at the Bible College where I took Psychology. It was called Pastoral Counselling.

Dr. Grounds wrote a book entitled: Emotional Problems and the Gospel. In this book he repeated his lectures and for 11 chapters he delineates the Bible truths and what they mean to mental health and as being the solution for man's mental ills.

He then writes the following....and this is very important for those who think the "gospel" is the total solution....keeping in mind that Vernon Grounds was a solid, fundamentalist Baptist preacher and teacher, and not some modernist flunky:::

"In the preceding chapters, I stated three positive theses concerning the gospel's unique contribution to person-health and person-healing. Now in this concluding chapter let me lay down two counterbalancing theses. The first is this: as Christians concerned about the problem of mental illness, we must admit that often religion, even our unique faith, is of little value, no value, or minus value with respect to healthymindedness. Distasteful as it is to admit this fact, honesty forces us to do so; and Christianity is reduced to hypocritical nonsense when its adherents flout the practice of simple honesty. Far from serving as a panacea for psychic difficulty, religion, even our own unique faith, I repeat, often proves of little value, no value, or minus value with respect to healthy mindedness. Honesty, I repeat, compels me to admit this." p 105

Before we can apply the truths of the Christian religion, we must address the whole man, the ill mind, the dispossessed person. In this process we employ all means. One Baptist colleague of mine even used hypnosis. Now I would not go that far. I would prolly be the one to drop off and leave the counsellee alone. We do, however, employ means to reach an end. Modern psychology has provided some of those tools, and I will use them.

Once we reach a certain stage, we can introduce the biblical precepts, the gospel, the love of God and even eternal destination as the ultimate peace-maker......but,,,,,FIRST, we must reach that place in counselling.

I firmly believe that my studies in psychology made me a better pastor, a better preacher and a better leader. Nothing replaced biblical studies, and none of us are trying to say that. All tools, and they are just tools, must be employed to get the job done. I would not attempt to dig an house foundation with a spoon.

Cheers, and good health,

Jim

 

[Charlotte Marcel]

I have just stumbled upon this thread. I found it very upsetting how prideful and unfeeling some of the posts are. I echo Sue's post in that I too hope that no one with any mental illness has the misfortune to stumble upon such uncharitable and ungodly words. I know that there are a couple of members of this board who strugle with this issue. Have any of you gone to the Prayer Request forum lately?

It is my personal observation that the most compassionate posters on this thread have visited the prayer request forum. And that the most judgmental and uncharitable posters, have not.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Thank you Jim,
That is a very informative posting. One of the most dangerous and distructive forces is an IFB pastor who, because of his bible study, thinks he can counsel mentally ill people. He is no better equiped to help the mentally ill than he is to remove a tumor from inside the body. Unfortunately, many of these people feel that the only answer is to give more, pray more, study more, etc...

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
if someone is unwilling to receive the word of God, I have nothing to say to them.


I wonder how Paul would feel about your quote especially considering his quoting of poets to the Athenians on Mars Hill and his quote below
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
1 Cor 9:22-23

I am very certain that Paul wanted everyone to hear the Gospel but I also believe that for some people even he used methods other than Bible cramming to reach them. Then once he gained there attention he then applied scripture.
Murph

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Johnv:
I've never understood the "Christian" concern with the mental health field. In regards to physical ailments, when we hear someone say "You don't need a physician, you just need the Bible", we think they're Jesus freak wackos, and rightly so. Yet, when it comes to mental health, we do the same thing that they do.

Seeing proper medical care is and should be of importance to those wishing to properly care for their Temples of the Holy Spirit. Additionally, that care should, as always, be supplemented with biblilcal prayer and meditation.

We are not arguing against proper medical care. I have said that numerous times. What we are against is "medical care" for "nonmedical problems." Why treat a tumor with Robitussin? Will that help?? The answer is absurdly obvious. Yet we miss it too many times.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
We are not arguing against proper medical care. I have said that numerous times. What we are against is "medical care" for "nonmedical problems."

I understand what you are saying, but often people mistake medical problems for non-medical ones. What was a non-medical problem 100 years ago can be a medical problem today, now that scientists and doctors know more. What used to be considered demon possession is now known to be epilepsy, etc. Do you think this progress in the medical field has reached its limit?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Maybe at sometime in the past I would have agreed with you. But then I lived through the exact opposite.

Brian, I consider you a friend through this board and I speak personally only because you have brought it up. Clinical depression is a way we describe people who are unwilling to think biblically. When you study the life of David, he would be diagnosed by every psychologist on the planet as clinically depressed. His answer was, "Why are you cast down within me?? Hope in God for I shall again praise him for the help of his presence." As I say Ps 42-43 speak clearly to this issue. People are clinically depressed (apart from testable medical/chemical imbalances) because of their view of God. I know that is not popular but it is vital that we take a stand for the truth of God's word. You do this admirably in so many forums and that is why I find myself surprised at your comments here.

Yes we can treat it with drugs and "help" but in so doing we have not solved the problem. We have only addressed a symptom. We have cooled a fever with an icepack that lowers the temperature rather than with an antibiotic that kills the problem. The problem at root is a disbelief, or unwillingness to live in view of God's sovereignty and that issue will only be solved by a radical reorientation of my thinking.

I can now recognize when my thinking wants to negatively process something.

Here you have nailed the problem. It is what I have said from day one. It is about our thinking. Rom 12:2 says to be transformed by teh renewing of our mind. That only comes by changing our thinking in line with God's word. Eph 4 say that we have been renewed in the spirit of our mind. 2 Cor 10 tells us to grab ahold of our thoughts and bring them into captivity to the obedience of Christ. David says to focus on God in the nightwatches, when he is awake, to make the law of God our delight and meditation.

Would you say that clinical depression is compatible with thinking that is captive to the obedience of Christ? Would you say that clinical depression is transformation by renewal? I hardly think you would. Yet the Bible's answer to this problem is so very different from man's answer. Why?? Because man will not accept the real problem. They cannot admit to the affect of sin on the mind (noetic effect of sin) and they cannot admit the possibility that there is an answer in the supernatural. When we do not admit the possibility of the real problem, we cannot admit the possibility of the proper solution, so we take other routes that address symptons but not causes.

Even many statements made on this thread cause in me an initial reaction where I want to think "yeah, you're right and I have done a bad thing in letting psychology and drugs help me instead of just trusting the Lord" and "oh look, I am such a failure than even when I recovered I failed because I did it the wrong way". Well sorry, but I have to shut those thoughts down right away before they get a foothold.

This is another interesting statement by you that undermines your position while underscoring mine. You have just admitted the possibility of "shutting down" the thoughts that you do not wish to have. You have insisted that continuing to dwell on those thoughts will undermine your confidence in the approach you took. When you admit the possibility of "shutting down" these certain thoughts, you admit the reality of solving these problems the way that I believe Scripture says to. Scripture says to change the way we think. You have admitted you can do it without drugs and counseling. Why do you admit it in this case but deny it in others?

One last thought on "Biblical principles": there is one Biblical principle that is almost entirely avoided. Laying on of hands for immediate healing. Not once did any pastor or elder come to see me, let alone try to heal me. Why?

Because the laying on of hands, I believe, is symbolic of the prayers of a person. The laying on of hands in this age does not communicate healing grace. That was an apostolic confirmation (Heb 2:2). In James, it is a symbolic acknowledgement of personal involvement in prayer and the word.

In scripture, often Christ and the apostles wouldn't try to convince anyone of something, they would just lay hands on them and *bam* heal them. And not just "spiritual" problems like demon posession, unconfessed sin, etc, but *physical* problems as well!

If you can show us a case where the apostles ever healed "clinical depression" or OCD by this method then we will listen. But I think you are here comparing apples and oranges.

Why do we even have hospitals (for physical or psychological problems) at all if "Biblical principles" are all that's needed? Just lay hands on them and heal them!

Because God works differently in the age when sign miracles have passed and even when he was on this earth he did not heal everyone.

He did give us his word to be our solely sufficient guide and to that we must hold.

Again, please understand I do not intend to be personal. I respond because this is a public forum and you have thrown it out here. I hold you in high esteem as a friend and brother.

 

[Karen]

We are not arguing against proper medical care. I have said that numerous times. What we are against is "medical care" for "nonmedical problems." Why treat a tumor with Robitussin? Will that help?? The answer is absurdly obvious. Yet we miss it too many times. [/QB][/QUOTE]

The trouble is, though, Pastor Larry, that you do sound like you are against proper medical care.
You are demanding a level of skill that medicine does not possess yet before you will let it treat anything at all.
The tests you demand are not available yet or only in their infancy. Yet symptoms and problems can be relieved now.

Thanks, BrianT, for your eloquent telling of your story. It was very helpful to me.
If I were as brave, I would tell my story that led to anti-depressants. That was some time ago, and I THANK GOD for modern medicine.

Yes, Scripture is sufficient, Molly, PL, and others, but it does sound to me as though Jim1999 has a pastoral ability of applying Scripture that many could learn from.
You guys honestly sound to me like you have a hit 'em over the head, take it or leave it approach. And I grant that is not what you REALLY mean.

Karen

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I wonder how Paul would feel about your quote especially considering his quoting of poets to the Athenians on Mars Hill and his quote below
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
1 Cor 9:22-23

I am very certain that Paul wanted everyone to hear the Gospel but I also believe that for some people even he used methods other than Bible cramming to reach them. Then once he gained there attention he then applied scripture.
Murph

I am quite certain that Paul would have understood what I said better than you have ... My point is not that I would not say anything. My point is that I will not offer a solution that does not address the problem. What did Paul do on Mars Hill with teh Athenians?? He called them to repent. That is a prime case of the biblical response.

As for those who talk of unfeeling, uncaring posts, let me ask this question: If someone had a problem to which you had the solution, is it uncaring to simply sit on the solution and not inform them of it?? Of course it is not. It would be very uncaring to have the hope of Scripture and yet refuse to share it because the "intellectuals" of the day consider it old and outdated. The Scripture is sufficient to equip us for every good work. Let's trust it.

Someone says that the IFB pastor addressing a mental health issue would be like the IFB pastor taking our a tumor. This person (whom I can't remember) has missed a vital distinction -- the distinction that I have emphasized several times --the distinction between physical and nonphysical issues. The IFB pastors who knows the word of God is a doctor for the soul. He may practice with more grace or less (and lets admit that this forum is illequipped to sense voice tone and inflection and the concern that is communicated through non-verbal cues). The IFB pastor who knows the word is equal to the MD who knows the medical procedures.

Again, folks, we must address the Scriptural issue from Scriptural. I am amazed by the lack of willingness to deal with the text on this issue, from people who in so many other forums are quick to use it and apply it rightly. Why is it that we are so loathe to do so here?? Is it because we doubt that Scripture really is inspired and profitable to equip us for every good work?? Is our faith really that small? And if we compromise this truth ... if God cannot change our daily mental/spiritual state through his word ... what confidence do we have in his ability to affect the future?? Surely it is much more difficult to save us eternally than it is to help us temporally. If God won't do one, can we really trust him to do the other?? If Scripture really doesn't tell us the truth, then why do we put our faith in it?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Karen:
The trouble is, though, Pastor Larry, that you do sound like you are against proper medical care. You are demanding a level of skill that medicine does not possess yet before you will let it treat anything at all. The tests you demand are not available yet or only in their infancy. Yet symptoms and problems can be relieved now.

But have we helped them by offering a solution that is no solution?? I am not demanding a level of skill from medicine. I am "demanding" an allegiance to Scripture and to its teaching. I will let medicine treat any problem that is medical. When someone comes for counseling, the first homework assignment is get a complete (and I mean complete) physical evaluation from yoru doctrine. He is to test the various parts fo the body including thyroid, endocrine system, digestive, respiratory, etc. He is to test it all to rule out medical causes. I have great faith in medicine for the body. I have little faith that a non-biblical approach to the non-medical problems of life is sufficient.

As I say, it is interesting how few people on your side are willing to deal with Scripture. Everyone keeps referencing their experience, as if experience trumps truth and theology. That is a bad road to go down.

Yes, Scripture is sufficient, Molly, PL, and others, but it does sound to me as though Jim1999 has a pastoral ability of applying Scripture that many could learn from.
You guys honestly sound to me like you have a hit 'em over the head, take it or leave it approach. And I grant that is not what you REALLY mean.

As I say, this board is illequipped for voice tone, inflection, non-verbals etc. In addition, the (supposed to be) short posts are not able to fully express these ideas. But I would question your belief in sufficiency on the basis of what you have argued. Where in Scripture is a person with mental/spiritual problems told to address them with mind altering substances?? They were available back then. So why doesn't Scripture tell us to use them?? Why does Scripture tell us to "bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ"? Why does Scripture tell us to be transformed by the renewing of our mind rather than be transformed by the ingesting of mind altering substances? What reason do you think Scripture describes things in this way?

Karen [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by BrianT:
I understand what you are saying, but often people mistake medical problems for non-medical ones. What was a non-medical problem 100 years ago can be a medical problem today, now that scientists and doctors know more. What used to be considered demon possession is now known to be epilepsy, etc. Do you think this progress in the medical field has reached its limit?

No, I do not think it has reached its limit. But nor do I think that Scripture is less than what is says it is. You yourself admitted the possibility of controlling your thoughts ... shutting them down was the terminology you used. That is my point.

Will you admit that people can and have mistaken non-medical issue for medical ones? Are you of the opinion that every psychological diagnosis is accurate?

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Brian, I consider you a friend through this board and I speak personally only because you have brought it up.

Thanks, Pastor Larry. I receive your posts in that spirit.

Clinical depression is a way we describe people who are unwilling to think biblically.

I don't think so. "Unwilling" was not my problem, "unable" was. It was not until the circle was broken that I could even make the choice.

When you study the life of David, he would be diagnosed by every psychologist on the planet as clinically depressed. His answer was, "Why are you cast down within me?? Hope in God for I shall again praise him for the help of his presence."

But David still had "Hope in God". Sure, he was down, but his brain wasn't rewired. I did not have hope, I could not see a light at the end of the tunnel. I just had this throbbing, numbing blackness, and I didn't even care if it ever went away or not.

Yes we can treat it with drugs and "help" but in so doing we have not solved the problem. We have only addressed a symptom.

I may actually agree with this. I do not believe drugs or psychology alone will solve the problem. But I believe that to get to the problems, sometimes they are sometimes necessary to crack through the symptoms.

You have just admitted the possibility of "shutting down" the thoughts that you do not wish to have. You have insisted that continuing to dwell on those thoughts will undermine your confidence in the approach you took. When you admit the possibility of "shutting down" these certain thoughts, you admit the reality of solving these problems the way that I believe Scripture says to. Scripture says to change the way we think. You have admitted you can do it without drugs and counseling. Why do you admit it in this case but deny it in others?

I can do it *now* without drugs and counselling. I could not do it then, no way. I could not do it until something altered my thinking, until something broke the cycle. My brain just didn't work that way, I don't know how else to explain it.

Again, please understand I do not intend to be personal. I respond because this is a public forum and you have thrown it out here. I hold you in high esteem as a friend and brother.

Ditto.

Will you admit that people can and have mistaken non-medical issue for medical ones? Are you of the opinion that every psychological diagnosis is accurate?

Of course I would agree that people have mistaken non-medical issues for medical ones, and that not every psychological diagnosis is accurate. Will you admit that people have mistaken medical issues for non-medical ones, and that sometimes psychological diagnosis are right on the money?

 

[Johnv]

I have a best friend who has clinical depression. Her depression is caused by a very specific chemical imbalance. When she's on her meds (1 pill a day at night), she's as right as rain, and can function normally.

I have a nepphew who's got ADHD. When he's on his meds, he's completely normal. When he's not, batten down the hatches!!! in the 1600's, he'd probably have been branded as demon possessed. Come to think of it, ADHD is his demon. Proper medication casts his demon out. And I don't mean that figuratively.

 

[Jim1999]

I have said this before, but it seems to have developed hot air are rose above our heads.

Whether an infliction is caused by chemical imbalance, disorder or a figment of the mind, to the sufferer it is nontheless an infliction. The treatment of this infliction requires care, patience, love and understanding. The medical profession does its best to understand the pathology, whilst the psychologist tries to understand the mind. Neither is always easy, and both have been wrong.

Some have even taken the wrong action based on clinical observation, even medical doctors with all their lab tests and history.

Sometimes dealing with the disturbed soul is more akin to the veterinary dealing with an animal who cannot verbalize its signs. He/she must ask the right questions and hope for the right answers to understand what is happening. Only then can they proceed with the best course of action.

What are we talking about? Tools! Yes, tools! We must employ every tool in the workshop, of which the bible is obviously one of them, yea, even the best tool in the end.

Don't let societal psychologists such as the popularist psychologist on Oprah be your determanitive on what a psychologist is. Remember, Socrates was a great "psychologist" from whence we get the greatest teaching mode by his name, The Socratic Method. He knew what questions to ask, and thus bring the student to the right answer.

In most counselling, the client is led to determine his own solutions through guidance and asking the right questions.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[LadyEagle]

I'm gonna jump in here & ya'll can throw rotten tomatoes after I'm gone!

But the pharmaceutical industry is SELLING us mental health problems! Ever notice how many commercials there are for antidepressants and sleeping aids? They are selling us depression and insomnia so we'll get our doctors to prescribe their products! And it is working!

Some will say, well they advertise Celebrex for arthritis, diabetic medicines, etc, but that's not the same.

Okay, I'm ducking.

 

[Johnv]

Lookie!!! A Medical Conspiracy!!

 

[TheOliveBranch]

I agree SheEagle

Won't see me throw a tomato. At you, that is

 

[BrianT]

SheEagle, I think there is probably some truth to the point you are making. However, just because car makers over-advertise to sell cars to people who sometimes don't really need them, doesn't mean there are not people who really need cars.

 

[Jim1999]

It is hard to compare Canada with the USA. I have never seen the adverts telling viewers to TELL their physician what to prescribe in Canada. Canadian doctors would not expect their patients to advise them on WHAT to prescribe.

Cheers,

Jim