psychology

1. I hardly live in a make believe world. I have seen alot of pain and suffering in this world. I just don't hide behind psychobabble so I guess I don't live in the "real" world.

2. What do you mean? They don't behave? They don't stay awake? What doe you mean?

3. You are right. It is because so many of these diseases are made up (see ADD).

 

Just going to jump in with the perspective of someone who has OCD (along with major depressive disorder):

Unfortunately, like most mental disorders, OCD does not have a lab test that one can use to diagnose and track the progress of the disease. Diagnosis is based on the psychologist/psychiatrist/other mental health professional relying on the symptoms described by the patient and comparing them to the criteria set forth in the DSM-IV. Hopefully someday, as we learn more about the various neurotransmitters involved in obsessive compulsive behavior, lab tests and/or imaging studies will be developed.

Personally, I can say that I'm grateful to God for letting me experience the depression and OCD. At times my life was a literal hell and I suffered pain that was only compounded by friends telling me that it was because I was a bad person or not a "real" Christian. I'm grateful that God led me to a good psychiatrist who helped me find the right medicines to take. Due to the severity of my depression and the fact that I had had multiple episodes prior to getting treatment I will likely take medicine for the rest of my life. I'm also grateful that God led me to a Christian psychologist who helped me build up my self-esteem and learn coping mechanisms to help me deal with my disease. I'm also grateful that God led me to a member of the clergy who didn't condem me but comforted me in my time of need.

I'm in school now preparing for a career in the mental health field because I have been there and want God to use me in reaching out to others.

 

There are plenty of children who benefit from drugs like Porzac. Again, not all children need this but some do. Many times these childred cannot concentrate enough, and they cause behavior problems in class.

This is something that many church operated schools do not understand. The church school can be selective in choosing their students. The public school system is forced to try and educate all children. Most of children who exibit behavioral problems do not end up a church schools.

This insistance by many to condemn all psychology because of some problems is indcative of many fundamental baptist when facing the real world. They are unable to cope when gray areas show themselves. This can be quite distrubing if you have been believing everything is either black or white.

 

I recently did a study called*Attitudes of a Transformed heart* by Martha Peace...it is a good study on God Most High as opposed to man most high...she has a chapter(3) on *the psycholigized man most high* and until I had read her biblical wisdom in this area,I really had no clue about this issue...but I now I agree with PTW and Pastor larry on this....it elevates man and makes him the object,instead of God and the sufficiancy of His Word.

Here is a quote from the book....think about it...

"One day I was working around the house aND THE RADIO WAS PLAYING. A WORLD RESPECTED *CHRISTIAN* psychologist was explaining how awful it is when one spouse calls the other spouse ugly names or puts them down. I agreed. At one point in his radio program he asked,"Why is it wrong to call your spouse names?" I stopped what I was doing and listened very carefully. I wanted to make sure I understood his answer. He said,"Because it will tear down their self esteem."

She goes on to say...."While I agree name-calling is awful,I was grieved over his man centered answer. He did not mention one word about God,His holiness,or about His(God) being offended. Nor did he explain about sin and the devastating effects of it in a marriage. Also nothing was said about the offended spouse's oppurtunity to glorify God(Matt 5:16;1Cor 10:31),to overcome evil with good(Rom 12:21),to turn the other cheek(matt 5:39),to go the second mile(Matt 5:41),to give a blessing instead(1 Peter 3:9),ot to forgive(Eph 4:32). Unfortunately just as many of our psychologists have made "man" the focus of life,so have many churches."

This is the introduction to the chapter that deals with all areas of Christian psychology,yes,christian....the focus is almost always on man,making him feel like he belongs,or is right....patting him on the back to help his self esteem....I've seen it many times...it does not help man see God Most High,but puts the focus on self improvement....and this is in the area of *christian* psychology,not even the worldy crazy stuff.

I have a friend that suffered with aneroxia nervosa and sought help from many pastors,christian counselors,etc...but she said when she finally(after years of seeking help) was actually biblically counseled by my pastor,who totally leans on the word of God to help EVERY area of life,it was then that she saw her own selfish ways,her totally self serving life....etc. It was then,through the teaching of who God is,that healed her....she gives testimony to the fact that all those*christian* counselors kept focusing on her and her problems of self loathing,etc...but it was when the word of God was straight forwardly taught to her over a period of time,that God used that to show her the way out,it was through Him and His Word.

I believe in the Word of God to make every man complete,regardless of the problem....there is so much in the word(besides John 3:16) that deals with all these kinds of issues...unfortunately most pastors do not even know how to biblical counsel someone correctly. So they send then to other experts...how sad!!!!!

 

And...it is not just pastor who should be able to do this...any christian who is in the Word should be able to biblically counsel someone who is having sin problems,hurts,ot whatever....there is no excuse for this lack of biblical knowledge...I guess it goes back to the dumbing down of churches....which is Satan's way of making believers ineffective in the world.

When we go to church we should be taught the Word so that we are equipped to go out share the gopsel and help those who need help....instead we invite them to church cause our church is fun....sickening!


Just had to get that out...okay,I feel much better now! Ughhh........

 

Any counselling which is based on Freudian methods ..

________________________________________________

Any modern counsellor who relies on Freud to-day would be greatly out-dated. Freud is hardly even mentioned by secular psychologists to-day. Even at the beginning of psychology there was a split in thought and practice between Freud and Jung, the co-founders of modern psychology.

Psychology has come a long ways since the beginnings. What we learn from psychology, is not so much the essence as the ways to address situations.

Now, some have addressed the question of whether an illness is real or imagined. To the sufferer the problem is very real and to ignore that fact, is to be incompetent to meet their needs. We must crawl, climb then walk and run...any infant knows this....So it is in counselling; we must first gain trust from the patient. We then move on to hear their view of the problem, and bring them around to the real problem and possible solutions. It can be a very long process and it can be over in a few hours.

Somehow we get the impression in some circles anything employed by secular society must be evil and anti-God. That just is not so. By any means, that I may win some.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I agree that psychology can take people apart. It just lacks the ability to put people back together.

Terry, are you saying that some children need a drug to pay attention in school? Again, if it is a legitimate medical need, it is not psychology.

Would things be different if kids were properly disciplined?

 

The diverse opinions on this thread remind me of a comment I made at a college seminar last week. When asked by the students whether I was conservative or liberal I said that there are alot of fruits on the left and nuts on the right and I am just a plain ol cornflake in the middle somewhere. The either/or dogmatic approach to most every post lately is sickening.
Murph

 

Amen Murph!

Both sides have valid points and to ingore either is just not too bright. There are spiritual acpects and medical aspects to all types of mental illness. It will take a balanced approach to cure mental illnesses. You can't ignore prayer and you can't stop taking your medication either if you want to solve the problem.


Bill

 

You know Preach the Word,
It really is not going to matter what I say or who I refer to, you have your mind made up about psychology. You have every right to do just that, if you so choose. I simply disagree with you on this issue.

 

Even physicians refer patients to psychologist and trained pastors who can deal with psychosomatic ailments.....Sometimes it is a combination of drugs and therapy, but the physician understands the difference in counselling expertise.

Cheers,

Jim

I bless the Lord that He made me available when some people were in need; a combination of prayer, bible and a whole lot of understanding....I called it psychology.

 

Often, it is not an either/or situation. A Christian medical doctor can use *both* drugs (if needed) *and* psychological techniques. He can deal with both the physical and spiritual at the same time. When I talk about determining chemical imbalances, use of drugs, etc., I am only talking about a Christian psychologist / medical doctor, I'm not talking about pastors, guidance counsellors, etc.

Originally posted by PtW:
> 1. No one will. A person who commits suicide
> needs spiritual help. He doesn't need people to
> make him feel better at playing God.

A person who commits suicide is beyond spiritual help, they're dead. Suicidal people can be suicidal for a number of reasons, and thus there are a number of ways they can be helped. Sometimes, psychology is one of the tools that can make a difference. Sometimes even medication.

> 2. As it should. Psychology is rooted in
> humanism. Does anyone deny this?

I'm not sure I "deny" it, because I don't even understand the assertion. Can you explain what you mean?

> I am still waiting to see where psychology
> brings any legitimate help when the Bible could
> not do better.

AGAIN, why do you make this an either/or situation? As stated previously, sometimes someone in need of help is NOT going to respond to the Bible, even though the Bible could help - in other words, yes the Bible could help, but ONLY IF THE PERSON is willing to accept the Bible. If they can't/won't, what then?

> 3. If it is a medical problem, it needs medical
> attention. Why don't you give an example.

Again, it's not always an either/or situation. Examples have been given.

> 6. Many mental illnesses are the product of a
> fanciful imagination of people who try to
> explain sin away as a disease.

Sure, I'll grant that happens. But I notice you said "Many", not "all"! Many are NOT, many are legitimate conditions in need of Christian psychological help.

> 7. God's word says that through proper doctrine,
> correction, and instruction a person may be
> complete. If God's word will do that, I don't
> need anything else.

What if you're at a point in your life where although such doctrine and instruction would help, you are unable to receive such doctrine? What if a chemical imbalance has altered your thinking to such a point that those instructions cannot be properly received and applied?

> 8. I would say that you are judging everything
> by your own experience. The very fact that you
> would not go to a pastor (who would give
> Scripture) is evidence you might have had a
> hard heart. I said you MIGHT HAVE...

Although you said this to Sue, you could have just as easily said it to me. Darn straight I am judging by my own experience. My own experience is why I *know know know* Christian psychology and medication are valuable tools in many circumstances. Without them, I doubt I would even be here to respond to you in the first place. You want an example of the benefit of Christian psychology? You're talkig to one.

 

If a person will not listen to the authority of Scripture, he has a problem with the sin of rebellion and it must be addressed. Such a person doesn't need to be coddled and told how special he is.

 

Pardon my naivete' but this is what I believe about this issue:
" According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue", 2Peter 1:3.
William Law had this to say,"True Christianity is nothing but the continual dependence upon God through Christ for all life, light and virtue; and the false religion of Satan is to seek that goodness from any other source." Sounds like Br. Law is writing about today's "enlightened" Christian and their acceptance of humanistic helps. Actually, he wrote this ca 1790's.

 

If a person will not listen to the authority of Scripture, he has a problem with the sin of rebellion and it must be addressed. Such a person doesn't need to be coddled and told how special he is. </font>[/QUOTE]Not that I agree, but how would you address it if they could open a Bible, let alone process it?

BTW, Christian psychology is not about coddling someone and telling them how special they are.

 

It is interesting to read the responses here. Let me make just a couple of comments. I do not intend to be personal but since individuals have made comments, I must necessarily address those comments.

You say that diagnosis is based, not on a lab test, but on asking and answering questions. This illustrates my point exactly that it is about a thought process. A doctor asks someone how they think and feel. Then rather than addressing that, he chemically alters their body. That should be a crime. He is relying on symptoms. This results in self-diagnosis. A medical doctor listens to symptoms but then moves on to address causes. As an example, someone I know recently went to the doctor with stomach/bowel problems. The doctor listened to the symptoms and then did some blood work. The result came back as a bacterial ulcer. It gave hope for treatment because it accurately identified the problem. Misdiagnosis is grounds for big time malpractice suits in many cases. But when it comes to mental health issues, we readily accept misdiagnosis from people who are illequipped to handle the problems of the soul. I reject that method of “help.” OCD is a product of the way that a person thinks. He or she concentrates on certain things. The answer is not to chemically alter their mind. The answer should be to biblically alter their mind. OCD sufferers need to change their thinking and to exercise themselves rather unto godliness. While to some that sounds heartless, remember that Scripture is about hope. Notice the words of the psalmist in Psalm 42-43. Understand the depression and hurt. Then read what his solution is. We would do well to follow it. The hopelessness comes when we tell people their only hope is to ingest mind altering and body altering substances.

NKJV the Word of God comments on children and drugs. Recent tests have shown great danger kids who are treated with drugs. History has shown us a better way of dealing with these kids. The problems were not nearly so rampant in days when kids came from stable homes and proper discipline. In my childhood, I would have been diagnosed ADD. Even today, I would probably be diagnosed that way. What is my problem? An unwillingness to discipline my mind to concentrate. I don’t even like most TV shows because they are too long. I don’t like to concentrate for that long a period of time. The evidence that these kids are not incapable of concentration is shown by their ability to sit down and watch a two hour movie without a break or by their ability to sit down and play video games for 2 or 3 straight hours. I made it through school with relatively good grades because my parents insisted on more out of me and I was disciplined when I failed to put forth the effort.

Having worked with teens and families for a number of years, I am convinced that most of these problems are solved by parental involvement, by simple things like turning the TV off, turning the computer off, turning the video games off, pursuing things that require discipline of the mind. The problem is their discipline and the way they are brought up. Their parents do not insist on obedience and right thinking. That sounds awful simplistic to a generation who is brought up thinking that their personal happiness and convenience is the most important thing in the world. But consider the reality of the situation. I realize that there are kids with genuine problems. But drugs are not the answer to the vast majority of these problems. And that is what it so often becomes.

It is interesting that a world so bent on blaming all of our problems on the past (way we were brought up, abuse, lack of affirmation, etc) are so hesitant to preach change in those areas for people who are bringing their kids up today.

There is a growing pseudo intellectualism that is invading our culture. The pursuit for continual advancement and new things led to constant new ideas and philosophies. And because someone could state it, someone took it seriously without bothering to check if it actually made sense and if it was true. The pseudo intellectualism offered credibility to anyone who could float an idea that sounded sophisticated. With a world looking for new and easier ways to solve problems, these ideas took hold. Long ago, it invaded secular culture and then it made its ways into theology making liberals our of former orthodox people. Now it is working its way into evangelicalism by way of those who readily dispense with biblical solutions in order to seem credible to the world. Just as we laugh when people talk of a flat earth, so we should laugh when people propose false solutions to real problems. The Bible, the authoritative casebook on the human soul, is the answer to these issues. Why turn away from it?

Drug therapy is a mind altering state. No one denies that drugs change our thinking and our behavior. Everyone who has seen a drunk driver knows that. The question we should be asking is, Is this a biblical way to address problems? The Bible teaches us about mind alteration. It dictates that mind alteration be by way of a personal choice to concentrate on God’s words. These mind altering drugs are not new. They have been around since mankind has been here. Mind altering drugs existed in Bible times but you do not see one place where Scripture tells us to use them. By contrast, Scripture tells us to reform the way we think. The psalms may be the best case book on psychology available because of its illustration of human hurt and problems and because of it single solution by turning to theological thinking. Notice how many times the psalmist appeals to eat, drink, take drugs, etc in Scripture. Now compare that to how many times he talks of thinking about God. This is so abundantly evident in Scripture it takes work to miss it. Why are we so willing to do that?

[ February 10, 2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Any valid "psychological techniques" have their root in Scripture. But why use drugs to alter the mind when Scripture tells us a different way to do it? No one here, at least not me, is arguing that we do not address chemical imbalances with drugs to balance them. That is not the issue. The issue is that "chemical imbalances" are diagnosed by verbal responses, not be chemical tests. And that is the problem. If the chemical imbalance is tested and verifed, then let's treat it that way. Several years ago I had a lady in my office with a verified chemical problem that stemmed from brain tumor. I have no problem treating those issues medically because it is a verified medical issue. The vast majority are not like that and the secular world admits it.

If someone is unwilling to receive the word of God, I have nothing to say to them. I go to the word and address its principles. Other people can say what they want but I am convinced by Scripture that it is sufficient to equip us for every good work and so that is what I use. If someone will not receive it, then I am offering false hope by giving them something else, I am furthering their spiritual alienation by presenting an inadequate and temporary solution to a real problem. If we believe that Scripture is sufficient for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17), then discussion becomes a moot point. Why it isn't is beyond me ... If Scripture is sufficient to equip us for every good work, and if stable and productive life is a good thing for us, then we need nothing else. We only need other things if Scripture is not sufficient for it, if 2 Tim 3:16-17 is not true.

 

Pastor Larry,you are right on this topic. I,also,am convinced in the sufficiency of scripture. Thank you for standing firm on this issue.

Molly

 

I've never understood the "Christian" concern with the mental health field. In regards to physical ailments, when we hear someone say "You don't need a physician, you just need the Bible", we think they're Jesus freak wackos, and rightly so. Yet, when it comes to mental health, we do the same thing that they do.

Seeing proper medical care is and should be of importance to those wishing to properly care for their Temples of the Holy Spirit. Additionally, that care should, as always, be supplemented with biblilcal prayer and meditation.

 

Maybe at sometime in the past I would have agreed with you. But then I lived through the exact opposite.

I didn't want to tell my story, because it's very personal and fairly recent. I am not posting it to "win the debate", because in my mind there is no debate - I have lived what most people only deal with hypothetically, I have experienced what others debate about only in theory. I don't really care what those who oppose psychology think about it, or if you think I should have handled it differently. But hopefully it will help someone who **needs** to see a Christian psychologist, so here it is:

Several years ago I went through a severe clinical depression that lasted almost 2 years. I had a successful job, a great group of friends and family. There was no tragedy, no problems, no reason to be depressed - yet down I went. At first it was fairly mild, but grew worse and worse. My family made me to go the doctor (a medical doctor, who was fortunately a Christian), and I was soon diagnosed with clinical depression, later confirmed by formal psychologists and a psychiatrist.

I had people tell me I had sin that was not dealt with. I had people tell me to pray and read the Bible more. I had a good friend tell me God was actually punishing me for supporting "modern versions" (our friendship has never fully recovered). I had people tell me all sorts of well-meaning but actually harmful (in my condition) information. I eventually shut right down. For by that time, my thinking was affected to such a point that any advice, *even simple encouragement* or a prayer or even a hug or a smile, had only one effect: it reinforced the idea that I was unworthy, a failure. Someone giving me a smile made my brain tell me that I was pitiful, and in need of a smile. Reading the Bible only reminded me that my spiritual condition was going down the tubes. When someone tried to get me to apply a "Biblical principle", I could only see the negative that needed to be fixed and not the positive that could result from the fix. I became passive suicidal, and then eventually even to the point where *I didn't even care* about whether it would end or not. Choosing between suicide or staying alive became as unimportant and trival as deciding whether to have ham or turkey on a sandwich. I was beyond depressed, I was entirely numb. So I didn't even choose, I just existed, sinking further and further into my own private oblivion. *Everything* fed the vicious circle - sure Biblical principles would help, but in my altered thinking, I could only see bad in anything good. I could not accept or apply them, for in my state they only made things worse. My prayers bounced off the ceiling, and deeper into my black hole I went. I withdrew from everyone and everything. I was sleeping 20 hours a day, and when I would wake up I would feel more depressed that I was sleeping so much, but I would feel more depressed just being awake. I am amazed my wife stuck with me, and at times I didn't even care whether she did or not. There were many days where if I woke up to discover she had left me, I would have simply had a glass of water and gone back to bed. But for months she faithfully woke me up at certain intervals to force me to take my meds or to get me dressed for a psycological session. At those times, I only went because everything was so unimportant, that nothing mattered more than anything else. Going to session was no more nor less appealing than sleeping, eating, reading the Bible, living or dying.

30 years ago, they called it a "nervous breakdown", and treatment was minimal and the suicide rate was high. 100 years ago, I probably would have spent the rest of my life in an asylum. 500 years ago, they would have drilled holes in my skull to let the demons out. But with today's understanding of such conditions, a few months of good psychologial counselling and Prozac then Serzone helped break the cycle. Once the vicious circle was broken, once my thinking began to change back to normal, I could then begin to positively respond to "Biblical principles".

Even now that I am fully recovered (I haven't had any counselling or medication for a couple years now), I still have to be quite careful. Through past psychological sessions, I can now recognize when my mood begins to slip, I can now recognize when my thinking wants to negatively process something. And thus I can deal with it before it becomes a problem. Even many statements made on this thread cause in me an initial reaction where I want to think "yeah, you're right and I have done a bad thing in letting psychology and drugs help me instead of just trusting the Lord" and "oh look, I am such a failure than even when I recovered I failed because I did it the wrong way". Well sorry, but I have to shut those thoughts down right away before they get a foothold. Psychology, administered to me in the past by my Christian physician, helps me with this.

To this day, I don't really understand what initially caused my depression. But I **know** what got me out of it, and helps me guard against it happening again.

The problem is that in cases like mine, even though medical science now knows clinical depression is often due to chemical imbalances, it is *impossible* to test and verify on a case-by-case basis. It is only diagnosed by verbal responses, and the verbal responses tell the physician whether a chemical imbalance is *likely* or not. If it is, they try to treat it as such, and if the person improves, that's only a good thing. 30 years ago, depression like this was never thought to be a chemical imbalance, a physical thing. But today we know it is, and can treat it as such. I firmly believe that other things, such as panic disorders, various manias and phobias, OCD, ADD, etc, etc, etc, will be proved in the near future to be physical, chemical or gene-related disorders, requiring appropriate treatment, combined with psychological therapy. Just because *today* they aren't 100% sure doesn't mean in 5 years they won't have proof, just as 30 years ago they weren't sure about what is now called clinical depression. If drugs help, even with just the symptoms and not the underlying problem, I say go for it. Because sometimes you can't even get to the underlying problem without stripping away some of the symptoms in the first place.

One last thought on "Biblical principles": there is one Biblical principle that is almost entirely avoided. Laying on of hands for immediate healing. Not once did any pastor or elder come to see me, let alone try to heal me. Why? Not that I would have even answered the door, but no one never even tried. The most anyone ever did, as I see you doing, is talk about talking to the person and convincing them to do this or that. Well, talking to them and trying to convince them of something is technically a form of psychology - you are trying to get them to change their thinking, and thus their actions. In scripture, often Christ and the apostles wouldn't try to convince anyone of something, they would just lay hands on them and *bam* heal them. And not just "spiritual" problems like demon posession, unconfessed sin, etc, but *physical* problems as well! The spiritual and physical parts of us are closely connected and can affect one another. Blind men (physical problems) had their sight restored. When Peter cut off the soldier's ear, Christ didn't send him to the hospital. Why do we even have hospitals (for physical or psychological problems) at all if "Biblical principles" are all that's needed? Just lay hands on them and heal them!

If anyone wants to send me a private message, please feel free.