psychology

[Jim1999]

Again, I will re-word what I said earlier. Psychology is a TOOL. It is a tool showing us the steps to follow in applying God's word in attempting to heal the sick psyche.

Show me the pastor who graduates from bible college or seminary and has never had an ounce of counselling in his course, and I will show you a pastor incabable of pastoring a modern church with modern problems, including psychological ailments. It is that simple.

I never try to replace the scripture in anything. I just try to be a better pastor. There are truths in the word, but Psychology 101 does not appear; pastoral counselling 101 does not appear. These are acquired talents and some never master them.......and it shows; believe me.

Cheers,

Jim

Even the Salvation Army realized this in their unwritten motto: Soup, Soap, Salvation...and generally in that order. Feed the human wants; wash the human service; dignity...and offer God's love. Applied psychology

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:

I will ask you: can you provide any problem that psychology addresses that Scripture doesn't address better? [/QB]

It is once again not a matter of either/or but rather an instance of both working together.
Murph

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Girla:
1. Is there such a thing as Christian psychology?

2. Are they oxymorons?

3. Are there anything from the science of psychology we can use as Christians?

4. There are a lot of explanations psychologist offer that seem to make a lot of sense...but how do we discern which advice we can accept and which ones we cannot?

5. For example, obessive compulsive disorder (OCD) is a real disease, how should we as Christians approach someone with this problem?

Interesting.

My responses are basically the exact opposite of PTW's (sorry, PTW

)

1. Yes. Thankfully.

2. No.

3. Absolutely.

4. This is the hardest question. If the advice/treatment goes against scripture, of course it must be rejected. If it uses Biblical principles, there is probably little reason to doubt it. You'll have to carefully consider the advice on a individual basis.

5. Christian should approach people in need of (or undergoing) psychological treatment with additional love and consideration.

I don't want to go into details on this forum, but I know first-hand the value of Christian psychology. Preach the Word, trust me when I say: I pray you never have to.

BTW, great posts Jim.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Brian T and Murph agree on a subject now that may call for a therapist.

Murph

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Originally posted by BrianT:
I know first-hand the value of Christian psychology.

Me too Brian. Great Post!

Sue

 

[Molly]

C.S. Murphy,Brian T and others,

Wouldn't you just call that biblical counseling? I am all for biblical couseling,but I feel it has to be biblical,as PTW has stated. The word of God is everything we need...but having wisdom(God's wisdom) and being able to biblically counsel someone is something we should learn to do. I don't think it has anything to do with psychology.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

I suppose you mean Christian counseling and yes this is a great field, I suppose the psychology comes in with the Christian counselors education because I am sure they must study psy. You are correct in that it must be Biblical that goes without saying.
Murph

 

[Jim1999]

Go to a home facing spousal abuse at 3 in the morning and try shouting over and over and over again,,John 3:16......."repent! repent!" I assure you it just won't work,,,,,try applied psychology, and it works........There is a time and a place for everything. God never intended that the Bible would answer ever question and every possible situation known and unknown to humankind in all generations.

Once you have a situation under control, then you can quote scripture where it applies. Sometimes situations arise where there is no verse that fits. What then? We walk away and let the person flounder? Hey! Get saved and all your problems will vanish! I just ain't that simple and if you think it is, I got news for you......and this has nothing to with whether I believe the Bible, trust God in ALL things because that is so in my life.....but I am not the one with psychological problems out of control.

Cheers,

Jim

Minister of 56 years experience.

 

[BrianT]

Molly, I'm sure there's some overlap, but when I posted, I had in mind formal psychologists and even psychiatrists, not merely pastors and Christian counsellors ('merely' is not quite the right word ). I'm all for "Christian counselling", but there are definitely cases when applied psychology and even professional help should be sought.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
I reread Pastor Bob's post. He did not state that he agreed with OCD being a disease. He merely supplied the information that Larry had requested.

And in so doing proved my point. It is a "disease" that cannot really be proven to exist. Physical characteristics aside, it cannot be tested. I had a psychology professor once who rightly said, "Correlation does not imply causality." Just because two things exist together does not mean that one causes the other. I do not deny that OCD is a real problem. What I would question is the validity of drugs to treat the problem. Drugs treat the symptom. On the other hand, thyroid issues and the like can cause depression and anxiety. Those are medical causes that can be tested and treated. However, it needs to be tested and treated, not simply assumed to exist.

Jim says to wait until you have been in the ministry for a few years and then speak. Having been in the ministry for a few years, having dealt with these types of situations, I am speaking. And what I am saying is that psychology, as it is practiced in the secular world, has nothing of value to offer a biblically centered worldview in terms of dealing with problems. That is not to say that its insights are interesting but where they are true, they merely reflect a biblical principle already known.

Your abusive husband at 3 am needs to be confronted with his sin and called to repentance. What better solution is there?? Put a band aid on it?? He abuses his wife because he does not love her as Christ loved the church. The solution for that is repent, and be obedient. In our desire to be sophisticated, we have "sophisticated" ourselves right out of Scripture.

Contrary to Jim's assertion, 2 Tim 3:16-17 does speak directly to this issue because it tells us that Scripture has everything necessary to equip us for "every good work." You cannot leave anything out of "every" and still have every. If there is only one good work that Scripture does not equip us for, then this verse is untrue. We dare not underestimate the truth of this verse.

To suggest that we need counseling courses is to ignore the value of Scripture. It is to say that Scripture does not really equip us; class does. I reject that reasoning for obvious reasons. I believe Scripture does equip us for every good work (whether helping other solve problems or whether solving our own problems).

Think of it this way: When we treat the problem wrongly by diagnosing wrongly, we have removed all hope. A person thinks that they cannot change. That undermines the gospel. In a previous ministry, a man in our church was on a number of drugs for everything from pains to depression and anxiety. I kept questioning why he was doing this. I told the family I think his problem is that he is taking all these drugs. Through a hospital stay, he was forced to go off of them. After a few days, with all of these drugs out of his system, he was a different man. His granddaughter, with whom I was very close, was in tears because "Grandpa was back." All along, had the problem been dealt with biblically, the answer could have been found a lot sooner. Going the route of "psychology" cost a man about 3 years with his family and caused him family some great pain in the meantime.

 

[swaimj]

Jim1999 said

Go to a home facing spousal abuse at 3 in the morning and try shouting over and over and over again,,John 3:16......."repent! repent!" I assure you it just won't work,,,,,try applied psychology, and it works........

I don't believe the Bible to be a book of magical incantations which we superstitiously repeat to fix problems. So I agree that saying John 3:16 over and over again will not stop the abuse. Certainly if you walk in and abuse is occurring there are practical things you can do to stop the immediate activity. You might call the police or tackle the guy. You might even use a little "psychology" to break the man's rage. However, I think you would agree that the solution in that home is not psychological methodology, but it is the application of scriptural instruction in that home. Frankly, if the Bible is of no use in that situation, it is not worth much.

 

[Helen]

Any counselling which is based on Freudian methods is anti-biblical, not just non-biblical. It is not a matter of 'shouting John 3:16' at people during a crisis, but of, if counseling is to be undergone, making sure that the sin nature is recognized and admitted, that a man's heart tends toward evil, and that we are accountable for our own actions.

Malcolm Bowden and Dr. Robert Law have written a very interesting book called "Breakdowns are Good for You", in which one of their primary points is that that vast majority, if not all, of mental 'disturbances' which are not organically caused are due to selfishness and sin.

http://www.mbowden.surf3.net/bibcoun1.htm

The fact that 'normal' counseling methods are not only not Christian, but actually dangerous to the people undergoing counseling is being recognized more and more by Christian leaders and lay people:

http://www.biblical-counsel.org/org-lit.htm

On the forefront of the fight against worldly counselling and chronicling its dangers and destructions are the Martin Bobgans:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0941717003/qid%3D1006558108/sr%3D1-5/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F10%5F5/102-8230499-7744931

Nothing, in other words, absolutely nothing, takes the place of biblical knowledge. This is not about actions in a crisis, middle of the night or not, but with the counselling that takes place before or after.

 

[ruthigirl]

Jim,

I do not think that anyone is saying to shout John 3:16, REPENT, REPENT! This is a great verse, and very popular, but if this is the only verse someone can give to someone then the problem is a not knowing the Bible very well.

I challenge you to give a problem that the Bible can not handle, and psychology can.

God said that the Bible is able to make a man COMPLETE, and THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY good work!!!!!!!!!

Does Complete not mean Complete?

Does thoroughly equipped not mean thoroughly equipped?

We should not read this and say well I can't find it, and then turn to others, but rather search the Bible daily!

 

[ruthigirl]

Originally posted by Girla:
For example, obessive compulsive disorder (OCD) is a real disease, how should we as Christians approach someone with this problem?

I can say that I had this sin in my life as a teen, my sisters even wrote a report on me.
However, this was a sin that I no longer have. NO psychology was used, but I was taught from the Bible that I need not fear. Fear and worry were in control of my life. When Christ is the center I never have this problem, but if I let fear take over I can get this even as an adult.

 

[Helen]

Ruthigirl, I think we all are subject to this to some extent when we allow fear to rule. Right now I have a husband whom I adore and he is due to go back to Australia on March 2. I would love to go with him, but I can't. He will try to be back here within a month or two, but all of a sudden yesterday I found myself almost trembling with fear when I thought of possible attacks at the major airports he must go through and the possibility of terrorist attacks, etc. Or maybe an active war would prevent his return. Or maybe he would have a heart attack. Or maybe....

And then I, like you, took a look at what my thoughts were doing and sort of firmly asked myself, "OK, lady, is the Lord in charge or WHAT around here?"

And I settled down...

What do people have when they DON'T have the Lord? All they have is fear! That's a scary thought all by itself!

In the meantime, way to go where you are concerned! You are going to have a unique ability to help other teens through similar situations, and even if you could not thank God while you were going through that time, you will end up thanking Him at least later when you see how He uses you to help others. God bless you!

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Ruthigirl:

I challenge you to give a problem that the Bible can not handle, and psychology can.

I don't think that's really the issue - I don't think anyone is arguing for psychology to *replace* Biblical principles, or that we should pit one against the other. There are situations where although the "Bible can handle" a problem (in that it addresses it directly or indirectly), the person may not be in a state where they can recognize, let alone apply, the appropriate Biblical principle in the first place. Chemical imbalances and other brain-related ailments exist that result in altered thinking. It's not a case of psychology vs. the Bible to remedy that, but rather applying psychology to at least get a person to a place where they can again receive the Biblical principles. That's what Christian psychology is often about.

When someone breaks their leg, you don't just tell them to "run with patience the race that is set before us". You take them to a medical professional and get a cast put on - then they can again run the race.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Chemical imbalances and other brain-related ailments exist that result in altered thinking. It's not a case of psychology vs. the Bible to remedy that, but rather applying psychology to at least get a person to a place where they can again receive the Biblical principles. That's what Christian psychology is often about.

Christian psychology is ill equipped to deal with this. Chemical imbalance is a medical problem, not a psychological one and it is to be dealt with psychologically. To depend on drugs to alter our mood is removed only by degree from narcotics. It just makes it legal to do it. I disagree with that approach. If it is a medical problem, then let the medical doctors test it and treat it. If it can not be tested and treated, let the spiritual solutions of Scripture take charge.

When someone breaks their leg, you don't just tell them to "run with patience the race that is set before us". You take them to a medical professional and get a cast put on - then they can again run the race.

Like I say, you must make a distinction between medical and spiritual issues. When someone has a medical issue, treat it that way. When someone has a spiritual issue (the only other option) treat it that way.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Preach the Word,
Go ahead and live in your little make believe world. In the real world, things are different.

I teach in a public elementary school. There are many children, who without certain medicines, would be unteachable. Thank God for the discovery of many of these wonderful drugs. Now it may be true that sometimes these drugs are not prescribed correctly. This is hardly the fault of the medicine.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Originally posted by BrianT:
I don't think anyone is arguing for psychology to *replace* Biblical principles, or that we should pit one against the other. The person may not be in a state where they can recognize, let alone apply, the appropriate Biblical principle in the first place. Chemical imbalances and other brain-related ailments exist that result in altered thinking. It's not a case of psychology vs. the Bible to remedy that, but rather applying psychology to at least get a person to a place where they can again receive the Biblical principles. That's what Christian psychology is often about.

I sincerely hope that someone suffering, feeling helpless and hopeless, does not stumble upon this thread and commit suicide upon feeling all the stones that are being thrown at him.

Sadly, this thread has turned into a pschology vs. Bible mentality. No one is trying to replace the Bible!

As Brian stated; a sick mind is in an altered mind. A medical doctor can provide medicine to alleviate the 'symptoms' and a Christian psychologist or a Pastor can THEN help the person to understand his problem and point them to scripture and a lasting solution.

What a sick person does NOT need to hear is that he is a sinner who does not have enough faith to 'pull himself up by his bootstraps'. That sounds like what Job's 'friends' did to him.

"Name it and Claim it" simply does not work. There are too many Christians who are unsympathetic towards mental illness. I think it is a shame. Where is the compassion of Jesus?

God can use whatever and whoever he wants to heal (or not heal) and bring someone back to Him. You cannot put God in a box and tell Him how He must work!

God worked with me on MY level of understanding (which included medication from a medical doctor and counseling from a Christian Psychologist). Then, and only then, could I go to a Pastor and hear and apply the right scriptures to receive a FULL healing.

Walk a mile in my shoes......

Sue

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
1. I sincerely hope that someone suffering, feeling helpless and hopeless, does not stumble upon this thread and commit suicide upon feeling all the stones that are being thrown at him.

2. Sadly, this thread has turned into a pschology vs. Bible mentality.

3. As Brian stated; a sick mind is in an altered mind.

4. What a sick person does NOT need to hear is that he is a sinner who does not have enough faith to 'pull himself up by his bootstraps'.

5. "Name it and Claim it" simply does not work.

6. There are too many Christians who are unsympathetic towards mental illness. I think it is a shame. Where is the compassion of Jesus?

7. You cannot put God in a box and tell Him how He must work!

8. God worked with me on MY level of understanding (which included medication from a medical doctor and counseling from a Christian Psychologist). Then, and only then, could I go to a Pastor and hear and apply the right scriptures to receive a FULL healing.

Walk a mile in my shoes......

Sue

1. No one will. A person who commits suicide needs spiritual help. He doesn't need people to make him feel better at playing God.

2. As it should. Psychology is rooted in humanism. Does anyone deny this? I am still waiting to see where psychology brings any legitimate help when the Bible could not do better.

3. If it is a medical problem, it needs medical attention. Why don't you give an example.

4. I would never give such counsel and am pretty sure Pastor Larry wouldn't either. That is nonsense. No one needs to pull himself up by his bootstraps.

5. If you think that is what I am advocating, you don't know what I am advocating.

6. Many mental illnesses are the product of a fanciful imagination of people who try to explain sin away as a disease.

7. God's word says that through proper doctrine, correction, and instruction a person may be complete. If God's word will do that, I don't need anything else.

8. I would say that you are judging everything by your own experience. The very fact that you would not go to a pastor (who would give Scripture) is evidence you might have had a hard heart. I said you MIGHT HAVE...