Pub Night Fellowship

[BobRyan]

1. I Phil 3 and in 1Thess 1 the leaders in the church are models that are to be followed by other church members.

Phil 3
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

It seems that this issue is not due to Scripture, but to do the conclusions we arrive at by reasoning out those passages. There are no “thou shalt not drink” passages

In the Prov 23 case below one is not even allowed to look at an alcholic drink. So the list appears to have some strong statements that look like do not drink alcohol - given that you are not even allowed to look at it.

1) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.
2) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.
3) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

5) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.
6) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.
7) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.
8) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.
9) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable
10) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.
11) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.
12) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.
13) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.
14) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.
15) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.


16) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.


19) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.


21) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.
22) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.
23) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.
24) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.

Personally, I do not think that the dangers of alcohol consumption are unknown even to the drunkard. I don’t know why anyone would want to subject themselves to these potential dangers.

Agreed. I think the texts above are in line with what we know to be the real social results of alcholism and the fact that it is a drug, that it goes directly to the nervous system, is addictive has resulted in domestic violence, deaths on the highway, other forms of sickness and violence... it is not at all shocking that those texts listed above would exist.

There is also the problem of supporting what is a social ill (the same could be said about the lottery). But taking a legalistic approach towards abstinence (particularly when we are talking of the believer’s testimony in evangelism), IMHO, has a great danger of damaging the testimony of the believer.

I am not speaking of the believer abstaining (I believe this would be the better position),

I believe that the prohibition in God's Word is an even stronger reason to abstain than the observed documented social ills it creates.

Having said that - I do not choose to cease from fellowship with those Christians in other denominations who differ with me on this issue or a number of other issues.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JonC]

I understand your interpretation of 1 Timothy 3:8 to state deacons are not to be drinkers. I’m sure that you understand my interpretation that deacons are not to be given to much wine (the “much” part not being an addition in interpretation, but actually a part of the text).

So I believe that you are reading into the text what you would like for it to say, and I am sure that you hold that I am ignoring in the text what you believe implied (in some cases, perhaps even obviously stated). But I agree with you that this disagreement in no way should hinder Christian fellowship (except, perhaps, in a local pub :smilewinkgrin.

 

[steaver]

Ya know, to me the term "Fellowship" is an over used term in our churches today. Im going to a church where they often serve food after the service & Ive gone to churches where they do a lunch service each week. I dont see how food is the social lubricant & personally, if I was stimulated by it, would it not be considered border line gluttony?

With that said, I have European friends who often take time to meet together in local pubs on scheduled times to converse & get together. Honestly I perfer that & while there are lots of those in the church dead said against it, the pub environment is a splendid way to have Christian fellowship.

Now I am not closing my eyes to the fact that liqueur being served could be a problem so I asked my dear wife (a recovering alcoholic) her thoughts on the matter. She sees pub night fellowship like I do however her cautionary statement that " some dont choose that path" meaning taking a drink while others are indulging, is the proper key to the whole balance issue. It is her contention that the pub environment is a favorable place for conversation, debate & socializing.....when properly managed. Again "Choice" is the key element here.....if a person knowingly cannot control themselves then stay away from that environment .....but do not let it obstruct others from a positive opportunity to socialize, have fellowship & discuss Christ.

Your thoughts?

Food has always been a social lubricant all throughout the Scriptures. I believe it was God's idea. At this very moment, Christ is preparing a banquet for His bride of the likes this world has ever seen. I'm curious, are you looking forward to sitting down with a bunch of brothers and sisters in Christ for this fellowship meal? If not, the problem might not be with the church fellowship meals, just saying.

Let's be honest, we all know why pubs and bars were created, for sinners to social. With that said, I do not object to Christians going into a bar to be a light in a dark place, but we are not to do as they do. I have a few friends who give the old "I will be a witness while I am there", Yeah right, they are only fooling themselves, not God. I also like the "having a beer is not a sin", but they do not have a beer, they have 5 and 6. I personally do not know of any Christian who goes into a bar to be a light and give the gospel, nor do I know any Christian who goes into a bar and drinks just one. If truth be known, I would say that most of these Christians who say they are there for Christ or are there just having "a" beer are also liars. Sorry. (And yes, I know quite a few Christians who drink 5&6 and sit in bars, and you know what my non Christian friends call them? That's right, they call them hypocrites, so I doubt the "I will be a light for them" is working very well).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Food has always been a social lubricant all throughout the Scriptures. I believe it was God's idea. At this very moment, Christ is preparing a banquet for His bride of the likes this world has ever seen. I'm curious, are you looking forward to sitting down with a bunch of brothers and sisters in Christ for this fellowship meal? If not, the problem might not be with the church fellowship meals, just saying.

Let's be honest, we all know why pubs and bars were created, for sinners to social. With that said, I do not object to Christians going into a bar to be a light in a dark place, but we are not to do as they do. I have a few friends who give the old "I will be a witness while I am there", Yeah right, they are only fooling themselves, not God. I also like the "having a beer is not a sin", but they do not have a beer, they have 5 and 6. I personally do not know of any Christian who goes into a bar to be a light and give the gospel, nor do I know any Christian who goes into a bar and drinks just one. If truth be known, I would say that most of these Christians who say they are there for Christ or are there just having "a" beer are also liars. Sorry. (And yes, I know quite a few Christians who drink 5&6 and sit in bars, and you know what my non Christian friends call them? That's right, they call them hypocrites, so I doubt the "I will be a light for them" is working very well).

Thats your opinion. First I like beer and I can have one....tops two all night. Thats cause I'm not a glutton, I enjoy the taste and I savior it slowly. So if I personally am going to have a meal then its going to be with a good beer, lager or stout....depending on the meal. I cant get that in a church. See I don't label a person a sinner or an alcoholic for having adrink now and again. Also since ive been in allot of bars and pubs in my life, I feel free to discuss God with them and brought a person or two back from the depths of dispair back to Christ. You talk about ministries but you shun places where there is need for the lord. Typical hypocrate behavior.

 

[steaver]

Thats your opinion. First I like beer and I can have one....tops two all night. Thats cause I'm not a glutton, I enjoy the taste and I savior it slowly. So if I personally am going to have a meal then its going to be with a good beer, lager or stout....depending on the meal. I cant get that in a church. See I don't label a person a sinner or an alcoholic for having adrink now and again. Also since ive been in allot of bars and pubs in my life, I feel free to discuss God with them and brought a person or two back from the depths of dispair back to Christ. You talk about ministries but you shun places where there is need for the lord. Typical hypocrate behavior.

You got that from my post?????

 

[Crabtownboy]

Ya know, to me the term "Fellowship" is an over used term in our churches today. Im going to a church where they often serve food after the service & Ive gone to churches where they do a lunch service each week. I dont see how food is the social lubricant & personally, if I was stimulated by it, would it not be considered border line gluttony?

With that said, I have European friends who often take time to meet together in local pubs on scheduled times to converse & get together. Honestly I perfer that & while there are lots of those in the church dead said against it, the pub environment is a splendid way to have Christian fellowship.

I understand where you are coming from. How is food and drink more sociable at a bar than at church?

But you are right about Europeans. When you go to a restaurant in Europe the table is yours for the entire evening. People sit, eat, talk and drink, maybe alcohol maybe not, for the entire evening. No one rushes them. No waiter or waitress gives them looks of "hurry up", no hassle. Just sociability and fellowship.

We Americans are in too much of a hurry. We do not socialize at leisure well with our friends outside of church. Some of the best theological discussions I have heard were in pubs and restaurants in Europe.

Now I am not closing my eyes to the fact that liqueur being served could be a problem so I asked my dear wife (a recovering alcoholic) her thoughts on the matter. She sees pub night fellowship like I do however her cautionary statement that " some dont choose that path" meaning taking a drink while others are indulging, is the proper key to the whole balance issue. It is her contention that the pub environment is a favorable place for conversation, debate & socializing.....when properly managed. Again "Choice" is the key element here.....if a person knowingly cannot control themselves then stay away from that environment .....but do not let it obstruct others from a positive opportunity to socialize, have fellowship & discuss Christ.

Your thoughts?

I really do not like the taste of alcohol, so I drink a soft drink or that good European espresso coffee. No one there has ever challenged me or made fun that I do not drink alcohol. Can't say the same here at home.

We have many great and wonderful attributes in our cultutre. But we do have much to learn from others.

“Pull up a chair. Take a taste. Come join us. Life is so endlessly delicious.”
― Ruth Reichl

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I understand where you are coming from. How is food and drink more sociable at a bar than at church?

But you are right about Europeans. When you go to a restaurant in Europe the table is yours for the entire evening. People sit, eat, talk and drink, maybe alcohol maybe not, for the entire evening. No one rushes them. No waiter or waitress gives them looks of "hurry up", no hassle. Just sociability and fellowship.

We Americans are in too much of a hurry. We do not socialize at leisure well with our friends outside of church. Some of the best theological discussions I have heard were in pubs and restaurants in Europe.



I really do not like the taste of alcohol, so I drink a soft drink or that good European espresso coffee. No one there has ever challenged me or made fun that I do not drink alcohol. Can't say the same here at home.

We have many great and wonderful attributes in our cultutre. But we do have much to learn from others.

Right....but maybe because both my wife and I come from European parents where you sit at the table with both family and friends for hours ....and that's where we socialize. In a church, there is a timetable......serve, eat & get out......and all those cassiroles. How much Mac & cheese, noodle & bean salads can ya tolerate?!?

 

[Crabtownboy]

I have a friend who lives in Richmond, VA. The church he attends meets in a coffee house ... a locally owned one ... not a national chain coffee house. I really want to attend a service to see how such a church functions. It is an most interesting idea, after all Christ commanded us to "go ye into all the world".

 

[Crabtownboy]

I have a friend who lives in Richmond, VA. The church he attends meets in a coffee house ... a locally owned one ... not a national chain coffee house. I really want to attend a service to see how such a church functions. It is an most interesting idea, after all Christ commanded us to "go ye into all the world". Not surprisingly there are some Baptist preachers, being afraid of a serious, take responsibility laity, in the area who are not overly fond of this church

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have a friend who lives in Richmond, VA. The church he attends meets in a coffee house ... a locally owned one ... not a national chain coffee house. I really want to attend a service to see how such a church functions. It is an most interesting idea, after all Christ commanded us to "go ye into all the world". Not surprisingly there are some Baptist preachers, being afraid of a serious, take responsibility laity, in the area who are not overly fond of this church

Id say, tough noogies & go there and take a listen. What these people are afraid of loosing their jobs and salaries to grass roots groups. Here is a wakeup call for you. Find out what they pay your pastor and do you think he is worth it?

 

[steaver]

I cannot speak for all pubs around the globe, but the many I frequented in the USA during the ten years I gathered in bars all had one central objective - "Give me a drink!". Even in the work place, what do we here? "I need a drink (i.e. meaning alcohol). You don't here them all saying let's get together after work and have some fellowship and we will discuss how God has blessed us this day. It is certainly an individual choice for only God knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart. We have to ask ourselves just what it is that is drawing us to the bar? Is it really the call to go into all the world to preach? Or do we need that buzz?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I cannot speak for all pubs around the globe, but the many I frequented in the USA during the ten years I gathered in bars all had one central objective - "Give me a drink!". Even in the work place, what do we here? "I need a drink (i.e. meaning alcohol). You don't here them all saying let's get together after work and have some fellowship and we will discuss how God has blessed us this day. It is certainly an individual choice for only God knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart. We have to ask ourselves just what it is that is drawing us to the bar? Is it really the call to go into all the world to preach? Or do we need that buzz?

Who does that....I cant recall ever having anyone ask me to sit down and lets talk Christ. But I do know guys from churches that tell ya, "lets go over to such & such tavern & get something to eat.....and we will talk." You move away from the judgemental, uptight and anal into a place you can relax and not be judged. I know I'm more relaxed there.

 

[steaver]

Who does that....I cant recall ever having anyone ask me to sit down and lets talk Christ. But I do know guys from churches that tell ya, "lets go over to such & such tavern & get something to eat.....and we will talk." You move away from the judgemental, uptight and anal into a place you can relax and not be judged. I know I'm more relaxed there.

I understand what you are saying, but let me ask you this, and give it some honest thought, think of one of your favorite pubs, some of the good times you have there..........................Now visually put yourself in that same pub, all the same people, but no alcohol is served, only non alcoholic beverage. Do you still see the same good relaxing fellowship? Or is something missing?

The point being, what really is the attraction or the draw to the pub? Take away the alcohol and would you still love the place?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I understand what you are saying, but let me ask you this, and give it some honest thought, think of one of your favorite pubs, some of the good times you have there..........................Now visually put yourself in that same pub, all the same people, but no alcohol is served, only non alcoholic beverage. Do you still see the same good relaxing fellowship? Or is something missing?

The point being, what really is the attraction or the draw to the pub? Take away the alcohol and would you still love the place?

Yes...we will just have to sub to pot.:laugh: Seriously though,...yes I can honestly say that the place would still shine. Most of the people I gather with enjoy each others company and the foods good.:godisgood:

 

[steaver]

Yes...we will just have to sub to pot.:laugh: Seriously though,...yes I can honestly say that the place would still shine. Most of the people I gather with enjoy each others company and the foods good.:godisgood:

That is good. Very few pubs or bars "shine" well, at least the few dozen I have been in.

I have witnessed far too much death and destruction of friends and family caused by alcohol that I have chosen to highly stress against messing with it at all. It would be easy to look down my nose at those people who become alcoholics and shake my head thinking "look at them, don't know when to quit". Problem with that way of thinking is that most of them never intended to become what they have become and have become addicted to the drug. They have been deceived and lied to at some point in life when they first became introduced to the drink - it's ok, just drink it moderately.

And for all of those out there who might think of themselves above becoming what others have become, remember that it is only by the grace of God the alcohol has not consumed your life. It takes just one tragedy, a blindside from a trusted friend or spouse, loss of a good providing job, to slip into that alcoholic you may have shaken your head at in discuss.

Our men's ministry provides alternatives to bars and pubs for good fellowship. Most in this part of the USA have access to hunting camps. We gather there and target shoot, or fish, or hunt. We bring our gadgets and our ole hunting and fishing stories. We make a fire to sit around and someone always has some deer baloney or jerky to try. Maybe make a pot of ham and bean soup, bring a bunch of fixins for breakfast the next morning for those who would like to stay all night. We take time to discuss what the Lord is doing in our lives and some will share some scripture which spoke to them lately. The best part is that we invite our unsaved and unchurched friends and they have an opportunity to hear the gospel and see that there is an alternative for good - non boring fellowship apart from the alcohol and bar scenes.

Again, I have witnessed far too much death and destruction of my friends and family. By the grace of God I did not end up as many of them. So everyone, please never look down your nose at the drunkard. Pride cometh before the fall. I know, I have been there. Only by grace do we play with fire and it not consume us. Please avoid the fire.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is good. Very few pubs or bars "shine" well, at least the few dozen I have been in.

I have witnessed far too much death and destruction of friends and family caused by alcohol that I have chosen to highly stress against messing with it at all. It would be easy to look down my nose at those people who become alcoholics and shake my head thinking "look at them, don't know when to quit". Problem with that way of thinking is that most of them never intended to become what they have become and have become addicted to the drug. They have been deceived and lied to at some point in life when they first became introduced to the drink - it's ok, just drink it moderately.

And for all of those out there who might think of themselves above becoming what others have become, remember that it is only by the grace of God the alcohol has not consumed your life. It takes just one tragedy, a blindside from a trusted friend or spouse, loss of a good providing job, to slip into that alcoholic you may have shaken your head at in discuss.

Our men's ministry provides alternatives to bars and pubs for good fellowship. Most in this part of the USA have access to hunting camps. We gather there and target shoot, or fish, or hunt. We bring our gadgets and our ole hunting and fishing stories. We make a fire to sit around and someone always has some deer baloney or jerky to try. Maybe make a pot of ham and bean soup, bring a bunch of fixins for breakfast the next morning for those who would like to stay all night. We take time to discuss what the Lord is doing in our lives and some will share some scripture which spoke to them lately. The best part is that we invite our unsaved and unchurched friends and they have an opportunity to hear the gospel and see that there is an alternative for good - non boring fellowship apart from the alcohol and bar scenes.

Again, I have witnessed far too much death and destruction of my friends and family. By the grace of God I did not end up as many of them. So everyone, please never look down your nose at the drunkard. Pride cometh before the fall. I know, I have been there. Only by grace do we play with fire and it not consume us. Please avoid the fire.

I perfer a place that's accommodating to my wife and family and where we could share with other families and I personally don't see that with hunting excursions...at least not a great deal of it. But a local pub or restaurant offers a meal and a warm place to gather together with family. And I've personally have killed enough in my life that I don't need to or really want to anymore (but I do understand about PA gun clubs and such). There and again there are piazza places you ban go to that don't serve....but I like a beer with my meal every now and then. My wife as a recovering alcoholic is quite OK with it and my son really isn't a drinker but he does take an occasional beer with his meal. And honestly, I was never raised to shun any adversity in life....not alcohol,not poverty, not sickness, really not nothing. Family and friends, if they are true, will stick by you....be there for youin both good and bad times. So being close as a family unit is critical...I want to see when someone is slippin and when someone needs my help. Cant do that on a hunting and fishing expedition.

 

[steaver]

I perfer a place that's accommodating to my wife and family and where we could share with other families and I personally don't see that with hunting excursions...at least not a great deal of it. But a local pub or restaurant offers a meal and a warm place to gather together with family. And I've personally have killed enough in my life that I don't need to or really want to anymore (but I do understand about PA gun clubs and such). There and again there are piazza places you ban go to that don't serve....but I like a beer with my meal every now and then. My wife as a recovering alcoholic is quite OK with it and my son really isn't a drinker but he does take an occasional beer with his meal. And honestly, I was never raised to shun any adversity in life....not alcohol,not poverty, not sickness, really not nothing. Family and friends, if they are true, will stick by you....be there for youin both good and bad times. So being close as a family unit is critical...I want to see when someone is slippin and when someone needs my help. Cant do that on a hunting and fishing expedition.

My wife is also a recovering alcoholic, about 16 years now. I never thought she would ever slip back, but about 5 years ago she began stopping in again for just one and done. She did this without my knowledge until after about 9 months something wasn't adding up. She hid it well, but one progressed into drunkenness once again. Ended up with guys flirting with her and she got all confused and we almost divorced. I personally would never ask her to sit in a bar to even eat. But all situations are different. I am glad you are blessed with not having friends and family around you consumed by alcohol. Blessings.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My wife is also a recovering alcoholic, about 16 years now. I never thought she would ever slip back, but about 5 years ago she began stopping in again for just one and done. She did this without my knowledge until after about 9 months something wasn't adding up. She hid it well, but one progressed into drunkenness once again. Ended up with guys flirting with her and she got all confused and we almost divorced. I personally would never ask her to sit in a bar to even eat. But all situations are different. I am glad you are blessed with not having friends and family around you consumed by alcohol. Blessings.

Steve??? You think I don't deal with alcoholics......almost on a daily basis. My grandfather was a degenerate drunk, my dad had tendencies and my brother is an out and out alcoholic. Then there is my wife who is/was chronic, my SIL and MIL....all recovering (in stages). At one point it was so bad that I kicked my wife out and almost divorced. Its been a 25 yr roller coaster ride my friend. My son grew up going to Sunday afternoon AA meetings in support of my wife and the stories some told were blood chilling.

So why don't I just swear off alcohol .....well I have a rule, 'Don't sweep anything under the rug ' and if you got a problem then lets talk about it. NO SHENANAGANS ALLOWED. Thats a rule in my house....Daddy's rule. Ive learned over the year's Steve, that its best to confront the problem early on...that drinking is a symptom of some bigger problem that only festors. And you have probably learner that as much as you try to avoid it, brother it's always lurking...its that sin thing, right. God help you...you already got enough problems to deal with living in Pennsyltuckey. :laugh::laugh: (this way I can insult two States in one swoop) :godisgood:

 

[BobRyan]

We have to ask ourselves just what it is that is drawing us to the bar? Is it really the call to go into all the world to preach? Or do we need that buzz?

Nobody says "Let's find out what the Bible says about the Gospel - but first will need some alcohol for the right amount of anesthesia necessary to be at our best when we open the Word of God".

I think we all know that.

No man can serve two masters.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nobody says "Let's find out what the Bible says about the Gospel - but first will need some alcohol for the right amount of anesthesia necessary to be at our best when we open the Word of God".

I think we all know that.

No man can serve two masters.

in Christ,



Bob

And nobody ever serve two masters.....not Christ when He changed water into wine at Cana and not Paul when he advised Timothy to take a little wine & then to Christ instructing the 12 do drink this wine and remember me. But please do not turn innocent things of life into corrupt instruments of the devil created to put man in hell for eternity. Its how you handle the element of alcohol, how you handle food, how you handle the attraction to the opposite sex, how you handle anger and stress and cravings and thoughts andeverything else inlife that distinguishes you as the fruit of the vine. WOW, that's kinda .....ah, never mind.