PUBLIC THANK YOU...and a challenge!

[awaken]

I mean this with no ill will, but this is the charasmatic "cat call". It's like they are on a whole other level of spirituality than us baptists. It's akin to the "holier than thou" mentality.

I do not come here with a "holier than thou" mentality. If I come across that way, I am sorry!

I again am not petecostal, I know very little about them. I just know what God has lead me to in scriptures and in experience. I have backed everything I believe with scriptures. I am still in a Baptist church, I still believe a lot of the same way Baptist believe, the only difference is I believe the gifts are still here!

 

[convicted1]

I do not come here with a "holier than thou" mentality. If I come across that way, I am sorry!

I again am not petecostal, I know very little about them. I just know what God has lead me to in scriptures and in experience. I have backed everything I believe with scriptures. I am still in a Baptist church, I still believe a lot of the same way Baptist believe, the only difference is I believe the gifts are still here!

I know you weren't "holier than thou", so no need to apologize.

I used to work with a charasmatic woman "preacher" who stated that when you get to where she was(paraphrasing what she said), you wouldn't go back.

 

[awaken]

I know you weren't "holier than thou", so no need to apologize.

I used to work with a charasmatic woman "preacher" who stated that when you get to where she was(paraphrasing what she said), you wouldn't go back.

I can relate to what you said about the charasmatic woman. You really can not go back. I really can not explain it!

Nothing said here offends me, my own family has attacked me as well. I choose not to be offended.

 

[DHK]

Again, if you study and pray yourself..search it out as I have. You will find that tongues are not to communicate the gospel.

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers will I speak unto this people; and not even thus will they hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to the unbelieving: but prophesying is for a sign, not to the unbelieving, but to them that believe.

No, they were a sign to 1st century unbelieving Jews who refused the message of salvation preached by the Apostles. If they continued in their rejection judgment would come. They refused the message. Judgment came in 70 A.D. Verse 21 is a quotation of Isaiah 28:11,12 where the warning was first given. They would hear despised gentile nations hear their message, the message of God spoken by the very nations who all these years they had despised. And when they heard that, they would know, that if they did not repent, then judgment would come. It was a message to the Jews.

If you don't have first century Jews in your church today, then tongues is not for you.

 

[awaken]

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers will I speak unto this people; and not even thus will they hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to the unbelieving: but prophesying is for a sign, not to the unbelieving, but to them that believe.

No, they were a sign to 1st century unbelieving Jews who refused the message of salvation preached by the Apostles. If they continued in their rejection judgment would come. They refused the message. Judgment came in 70 A.D. Verse 21 is a quotation of Isaiah 28:11,12 where the warning was first given. They would hear despised gentile nations hear their message, the message of God spoken by the very nations who all these years they had despised. And when they heard that, they would know, that if they did not repent, then judgment would come. It was a message to the Jews.

If you don't have first century Jews in your church today, then tongues is not for you.

"In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"" (1 Corinthians 14:21-25)

Paul seems to contradict himself in this passage. First he says that tongues are a "sign" for unbelievers, but then he says that if unbelievers see people speaking in tongues, the unbelievers will think that the believers are out of their minds.

It turns out that "uninterpreted tongues" have been used in Israel's history as a sign to the unbelieving Israelites that God's judgment had come upon them. Paul was quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11-12:

"Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen." (Isaiah 28:11-12)
This prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrian army swooped down upon Israel speaking a foreign language (an uninterpreted tongue), carrying Israel off into captivity. Paul used an example from Israel's history to show that uninterpreted tongues are sometimes used as a "sign" for unbelievers that judgment has come upon them.

Then Paul pointed out that if an unbeliever enters a church where Christians seem to have lost their minds, the unbeliever wouldn't see this as a sign of impending judgment. This is why Paul said that prophecy is much more beneficial during a church service.

 

[DHK]

"In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

Yes, the emphasis was on prophecy, not tongues throughout the entire chapter. Paul discouraged the use of tongues. That is easy to see.

So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

That is the conclusion that they came to in that day.
That is the conclusion that people come to today.
Things haven't changed have they?

But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"" (1 Corinthians 14:21-25)
That is because people that prophecy could be understood. Prophesying, like preaching, was done in the language of the common person.

Paul seems to contradict himself in this passage. First he says that tongues are a "sign" for unbelievers, but then he says that if unbelievers see people speaking in tongues, the unbelievers will think that the believers are out of their minds.

And for good reason. It is total chaos.

It turns out that "uninterpreted tongues" have been used in Israel's history as a sign to the unbelieving Israelites that God's judgment had come upon them. Paul was quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11-12:

In the Corinthian church the tongues were not being interpreted. Thus the instruction and the rebuke. Your interpretation of that passage is wrong.

"Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen." (Isaiah 28:11-12)
This prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrian army swooped down upon Israel speaking a foreign language (an uninterpreted tongue), carrying Israel off into captivity. Paul used an example from Israel's history to show that uninterpreted tongues are sometimes used as a "sign" for unbelievers that judgment has come upon them.

Paul is referring to his time otherwise the passage is irrelevant and has no meaning whatsoever. He is not rambling on for the good of his health.

Look at the verse:
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
"In the law it is written" It refers to an OT passage.
"With men of other tongues and other lips WILL I speak unto THIS PEOPLE."
It is referring to the present time. He is speaking to THIS PEOPLE, the people of the present time. They would hear men of different nations speak the message of God.
"And yet for all that they will not hear me." Even though they had been warned about this 700 years ago, and now it is taking place they still will not listen. They will remain in their unbelief.
This is speaking to the unbelieving Jew. This had never happened before.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
--The "wherefore" connects verse 22 to verse 21. The unbelieving continues the thought of the Jews. He is not speaking of unbelieving people in general. He is speaking of the unbelieving Jew. That is the context.
Tongues are a sign for the unbelieving Jew.

Go back to Acts 2, 10 and 19, the three places where tongues are mentioned in Acts. In all three places where tongues are spoken Jews are present.

Then Paul pointed out that if an unbeliever enters a church where Christians seem to have lost their minds, the unbeliever wouldn't see this as a sign of impending judgment. This is why Paul said that prophecy is much more beneficial during a church service.

The Jew knew by context, by the OT, that this was a sign of impending judgment. They had refused the Messiah. Judgment was about to come.
Anyone else would see it as simply chaos. There was no benefit for anyone.

Paul told them prophecy was beneficial and tongues were not. Your argument is defeated in that alone.

 

[Luke2427]

So you are saying that you ask God to help you on a personal level.
Do I marry this girl? Do I take this job? Do I move to this city? Do I take this church? He does not speak to your spirit?

I think I have been clear here. God speaks through his word and providence.

Even with providence, "speaking" may not be the best descriptor.

Providence is God opening and closing doors. It is God moving and orchestrating circumstances.

Should I take this church? How do I decide?

#1 Is there any biblical reason I should not?

#2 Are there biblical reasons I should?

#3 Is the potential benefit to the Kingdom sufficient to justify such a move?

Making decisions this way is BIBLICAL. We employ wisdom. That's how God SAID we are supposed to make decisions.

How does providence play into this?

#1 Has God made the church available?

#2 Has God made other opportunities available where we might serve Him more effectively?

#3 Has God given me the particular gifts and talents and character appropriate for this particular ministry?

This is how you make decisions, Awaken. Period.

There IS NO BIBLICAL PRECEDENT FOR THIS "GOD SPEAKING TO YOUR SPIRIT" BUSINESS.

It's bogus. You've been duped externally and internally. You've been duped. And you are not alone. THOUSANDS upon thousands of Christians share this erroneous thinking with you in this religious culture.

 

[awaken]

I think I have been clear here. God speaks through his word and providence.

Even with providence, "speaking" may not be the best descriptor.

Providence is God opening and closing doors. It is God moving and orchestrating circumstances.

Should I take this church? How do I decide?

#1 Is there any biblical reason I should not?

#2 Are there biblical reasons I should?

#3 Is the potential benefit to the Kingdom sufficient to justify such a move?

Making decisions this way is BIBLICAL. We employ wisdom. That's how God SAID we are supposed to make decisions.

How does providence play into this?

#1 Has God made the church available?

#2 Has God made other opportunities available where we might serve Him more effectively?

#3 Has God given me the particular gifts and talents and character appropriate for this particular ministry?

This is how you make decisions, Awaken. Period.

There IS NO BIBLICAL PRECEDENT FOR THIS "GOD SPEAKING TO YOUR SPIRIT" BUSINESS.

It's bogus. You've been duped externally and internally. You've been duped. And you are not alone. THOUSANDS upon thousands of Christians share this erroneous thinking with you in this religious culture.

I know deep down inside...I ususally have a peace that I recognize from God.

also...The "voice" of God is not actually a voice at all. It's more of a "knowing" deep down inside of us. Sometimes you'll sense a single word or a phrase or a picture inside of you, and it might be accompanied by a momentary "flash" of knowing what that word or phrase or picture means. It's like a camera's flashbulb lighting up momentarily, and you just know what God means because He has illuminated it to your spirit. Your "knower"(for better words) will know what God means, but it's usually very faint and easy to miss. It's also very easy for your mind and your emotions to convince you that it wasn't really God speaking to you. Your flesh is a whole lot louder than God's voice within you, but He speaks quietly because He wants you to choose to focus on Him rather than focusing on your fleshly desires and reasonings.

 

[Luke2427]

I know deep down inside...I ususally have a peace that I recognize from God.

That means you are psychotic.

also...The "voice" of God is not actually a voice at all. It's more of a "knowing" deep down inside of us.

Show it in the Bible. Show one time where God speaks creating this mythical sense of "knowing deep down inside."

You did not get that from the Bible, Awaken. You got it from external and internal deception.

Sometimes you'll sense a single word or a phrase or a picture inside of you,

madness and not found in the Bible ANYWHERE.

You have created a new religion with new doctrines and stamp the name of Christ on it.

and it might be accompanied by a momentary "flash" of knowing what that word or phrase or picture means. It's like a camera's flashbulb lighting up momentarily, and you just know what God means because He has illuminated it to your spirit.

illuminated it to your spirit? Not in the Bible- not ANYWHERE.

Your "knower"(for better words) will know what God means, but it's usually very faint and easy to miss.

more extrabiblical super-spiritual nonsense

It's also very easy for your mind and your emotions to convince you that it wasn't really God speaking to you. Your flesh is a whole lot louder than God's voice within you,

You seem like a sweet guy but I am telling you that this a bunch of man made gobbly gook.

This "flesh being loud" mess is not anywhere in the Bible.

This "God's voice within you" is more akin to New Age paganism than it is biblical Christianity.

but He speaks quietly because He wants you to choose to focus on Him rather than focusing on your fleshly desires and reasonings.

A completely new, made up religion that has NO TIES- NONE WHATSOEVER- to the Bible.

 

[awaken]

Yes, the emphasis was on prophecy, not tongues throughout the entire chapter. Paul discouraged the use of tongues. That is easy to see.

That is the conclusion that they came to in that day.
That is the conclusion that people come to today.
Things haven't changed have they?

Paul is referring to his time otherwise the passage is irrelevant and has no meaning whatsoever. He is not rambling on for the good of his health.

Look at the verse:
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
"In the law it is written" It refers to an OT passage.
"With men of other tongues and other lips WILL I speak unto THIS PEOPLE."
It is referring to the present time. He is speaking to THIS PEOPLE, the people of the present time. They would hear men of different nations speak the message of God.
"And yet for all that they will not hear me." Even though they had been warned about this 700 years ago, and now it is taking place they still will not listen. They will remain in their unbelief.
This is speaking to the unbelieving Jew. This had never happened before.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
--The "wherefore" connects verse 22 to verse 21. The unbelieving continues the thought of the Jews. He is not speaking of unbelieving people in general. He is speaking of the unbelieving Jew. That is the context.
Tongues are a sign for the unbelieving Jew.

Go back to Acts 2, 10 and 19, the three places where tongues are mentioned in Acts. In all three places where tongues are spoken Jews are present.

The Jew knew by context, by the OT, that this was a sign of impending judgment. They had refused the Messiah. Judgment was about to come.
Anyone else would see it as simply chaos. There was no benefit for anyone.

Paul told them prophecy was beneficial and tongues were not. Your argument is defeated in that alone.

While the apostle Peter was teaching Cornelius and his household about Christ, the Holy Spirit came on everyone who heard the message. They all began speaking in tongues, but they were not witnessing to anyone because every non-Christian in the house had just gotten saved (i.e. there was no-one else present who needed to hear the Gospel). Instead, they were praising God in tongues by the Holy Spirit, just like the disciples did on the day of Pentecost.

 

[12strings]

I believe that all can "pray in the spirit" and Paul calls that tongues in Cor. 14.

"CAN", or, "must, should, will not be obeying God until they do." Which is it?

 

[awaken]

"CAN", or, "must, should, will not be obeying God until they do." Which is it?

I am keeping all my comments to one thread..because I keep repeating myself and can not remember who I said what to..If you want to ask my question on what I believe concerning tongues I will answer them in one thread...the one that deals with them 1 Cor. 12-14