Purgatory, Foundation

John Gilmore offered the following:

Thank you for that old English rendition!

On the Latin "tagline" I gave, here is the direct english translation:

Glory to God on high,
and on earth peace
to men of good will.
We praise you.
We bless you,
We adore you,
We glorify you,
We give you thanks
for your great glory;
Oh Lord God, Heavenly King,
God the Father Almighty!
Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten
Son;
Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of
The Father;
Who takes away the sins of the world,
have mercy on us:
Who takes away the sins of the world.
receive our prayer;
Who sits at the right hand of the
Father, have mercy on us
For you alone are holy,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone, O Jesus Christ,
are most high,
Together with the Holy Spirit, in the
glory of God the Father.
Amen.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Exegesis - note what is actually mentioned IN the text. Notice that the "WORKERS" listed are the evangelists "one plants, another waters and God causes the harvest". The WORK of evangelism is SPECIFICALLY the work being targetted in the chapter.

Note also the SAME text say "NTHER foundation can anyone lay OTHER than that has been laid which is CHRIST" - and the WORKS are tried and tested - the teaching and doctrine is tested to see how closely it measure to that standard.

SO if (for example) they teach that the foundation is Peter instead of Christ - that TEACHING will be cast aside.

IF they teach that Jesus Christ is NOT the Messiah ( a mistake of the one true Hebrew nation Church that is STILL taught today) that teaching too will be cast aside.

Do not seek to become teachers KNOWING that as such we will incur a STRICTER judgment" James 3:1

HOWEVER in 1Cor 3- it is the EVANGELIST's WORKS that are burned IF they do not measure up - the WORK of planting, watering etc - the WORK that is LISTED the WORK that may deviate from presenting Christ as "The ONE and ONLY foundation" that is laid for the doctrines and teachings of the church.

(Pope Gregory's fondness for chanting not withstanding).

In Christ,

Bob

 

1 Peter 3:18-19 "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the
just for the unjust; that he might offer us to God, being put to
death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit. In which
also coming he preached to those spirits now in prison."

8 people - That is true - 8 were saved by entering the Ark. (And corresponding to that Baptism now saves you - the appeal to God for a clean conscience).

However the focus of the text is NOT on preaching to the 8 but to the wicked that were lost - in rebellion in the time of Noah WHEN the ark was being built.

In 1 Peter chapter One we see that the Spirit of Christ IN the Holy Prophets of old was predicting the future sufferings of Christ. (1 Peter 1:10-11)

1Pet 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.


And now in 1 Peter 3 - we see that Christ - BY the Spirit of Christ ALSO preached to those who were disobedient during the days of Noah - during the building of the Ark.

In this text the "captives" are inprisoned - not by God but by satan - and preaching liberty to the Captives (as we see in Luke 4) had nothing to do with seeking out the dead and giving them Bible studies.

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;
Luke 4:
17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18
"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19
TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Luke 7
22 And He answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
This is a message about those living – at the time of the flood – WHEN God waited patiently, IN the days of Noah WHILE the ark was being built.
Christ - BY the Spirit of Christ ALSO preached to those who were disobedient during the days of Noah - during the building of the Ark.

However - instead of sticking the explicit statement of 1Peter 3 that identifies the wicked at the time of Noah - an "alternative is suggested" below..

So here the point is NOT to allow the specific focus on those wicked that were in rebellion DURING the construction of the ark, DURING the time WHEN the ark was being built.

This can not be taken as a reference to people now being tormented in purgatory.

Both of these deal with the actions of the Spirit of Christ as it pertains to people in the past - specifically the prophets of old - as He witnessed to the OT saints through them (1Peter 1:10-11) AND ALSO the wicked of old (1Peter 3:18-19) TO WHOM the witness was being given - the wicked at the time WHEN the ark was being built.

In Christ,

Bob

 

They are taking "liberties" with the text. Look up the greek word that is being used there. It is the word for "sleep". They are correct that sleep is being used as a term for "death" - but it is "sleep" because it is not referring to the decaying corpse rotting in the grave - but to the PERSON being in a dormant state.

This is simply a matter of fact - look at the Greek and you will see that the NASB is being very "literal" in its translation.

No the term koimao sleep in 1Cor 11 and in 1Thess 4 and in John 11 is all referencing the dormant state in death of the PERSON. Your Catholic translations are directing you to see this as death - and that is correct. The term sleep is being used as a symbol for death - literally koimao "sleep" in the greek text.

The text says "For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, AND many sleep. " koimao

"We shall not all sleep koimao - but we shall all be changed" 1Cor 15:51

The same term koimao is used. The NASB is correct on this point. And your RC translation is correct to show that this term is symbol for death - the PERSON in a dormant state.

This statement "comes about" according to 1Cor 15 - at the resurrection.

The theif is specific "Lord remember me WHEN you come into your Kingdom"

Christ states in direct response -- "Verily I say to you today you Shall be with Me in Paradise"

And of course in John 20 we find that Christ - as of that Sunday had not YET been to the Father's throne.

"Even so God will bring with HIM those WHO HAVE fallen ASLEEP IN Jesus" 1Thess 4:14

Intead of saying that the PERSON has "passed away" in John 11 - Christ said "our Friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may WAKE him". The dormant state of the Person in Death - is specified but is LESS tragic than "dead".


b]There is but one judgment for each person after death "For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" Heb 9:27[/b]

Well we can agree there.

That is an example of a "story" about non-time and about nanoseconds after death. It is where Bible ends and "story begins". Rather than doing that - it is better to let the bible speak for itself. In the NT judgment is always placed "in the future". Until you get to Rev 14 where you see a FUTURE time when the message is given to those living on earth "The Hour of His judgment HAS come".

Rev 20 says that the SECOND death is the lake of fire.

The FIRST death is followed by the judgment according to Heb 9 -- and then comes the SECOND death according to Rev 20.

Well you are right about one thing - it comes from the Bible - not man made tradition. But some see that "as a good thing".


In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Let Us come BOLDLY before the throne of Grace" due to the ministry of our ONE High Priest - Heb 4:14-16.

Direct and immediate forgiveness of sins is the only model that scripture gives. Never do we see any Christian going to a single NT saint and saying "please ask God to forgive me - because you are my best and only source of forgiveness"

Rather Christ declared that "IN HIS NAME" forgiveness of sins was to be "proclaimed" and that this was the "mission" of His followers - to proclaim that message (Luke 24:47)

This leaves no room for reworking the text of John 20 to mean "you need to go to someone other than Christ for forgiveness of sins".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 20 is showing a corporate judgment - as we see in the process of Matt 18 (and as we see in 1Cor 5) where the open sin of a member in the church is dealt with corporately by church leadership.

That in no way provides "Another avenue of forgiveness" beyond the 1John 1:9 direct connection to God who is HIMSELF "Faithful AND just to Forgive US our sins".

The ONLY examples that we see in scripture of saints going to the church for issues about sin - is in cases of open rebellion by a church member that refuses to take correction. (1Cor 5 for example).

Forgiveness is always the role of God alone. There are NO cases in the NT where anyone says "I absolve thee" or "your sins ARE forgiven" IF that person is not GOD.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan replied, where he previously said:

#3. Chapter 3 of 1Cor 3 deals with the "teaching" of various Christian teachers and asserts strongly that "Christ is the ONE foundation of the church" and that "NTHER foundation can be laid" by any teacher. It then goes on to describe the TEACHING of the various evangelists as their work - and shows that it is their TEACHING that is tried and burned acccording to its "value".

And I previously responded:

So what? If they practice a bad teaching, is that not to be burned as a poor works, yet the individual is saved even while he "suffers a loss"?

I am not disputing that at all, Bob. Indeed, we are seeing the "workers" here as those who are in the clergy, doing the preaching, teaching and evangelizing. So, are you saying that such individuals are the only ones who are in danger of purgatory at their judgment?

If such a judgment is applicable to them before the Lord, what then of the souls of the laypersons who are at least to be witnesses to the gospel, even teach and evangelize as well? In other words, if those in authority are subjected to such a judgment, so also are all of us, don't you think?

Bob previously said:

It is Never "the person" {as much as the RC doctrines "needed" it to get the "person burned and tried"} that is burned it is "only the teaching" the works.

And I previously replied:

Are you saying that the lay person, not a minister of evangelist, will not suffer the same scrutiny before the Lord as His or her death? Do you and I also have "works" that will be tested, "as if by fire"?

First of all, I totally agree that teachers and evangelists are held to a higher standard then the lay faithful. That does not mean that those who are not teachers and evangelists, like you and I, are "off the hook" in our sins and failures as good Christians before the Lord, Bob. In fact, I have no idea why you are pursuing this line of reasoning.

God's music!

Bob previously said:

#3. Chapter 3 of 1Cor 3 deals with the "teaching" of various Christian teachers and asserts strongly that "Christ is the ONE foundation of the church" and that "NTHER foundation can be laid" by any teacher. It then goes on to describe the TEACHING of the various evangelists as their work - and shows that it is their TEACHING that is tried and burned acccording to its "value".

And I previously responded:

So what? If they practice a bad teaching, is that not to be burned as a poor works, yet the individual is saved even while he "suffers a loss"?

I am not disputing that at all, Bob. Indeed, we are seeing the "workers" here as those who are in the clergy, doing the preaching, teaching and evangelizing. So, are you saying that such individuals are the only ones who are in danger of purgatory at their judgment?

If such a judgment is applicable to them before the Lord, what then of the souls of laypersons who are at least to be witnesses to the gospel, even teach and evangelize as well? In other words, if those in authority are subjected to such a judgment, so also are all of us, to a lesser extent perhaps, don't you think?

Bob previously said:

It is Never "the person" {as much as the RC doctrines "needed" it to get the "person burned and tried"} that is burned it is "only the teaching" the works.

And I previously replied:

Are you saying that the lay person, not a minister of evangelist, will not suffer the same scrutiny before the Lord as His or her death? Do you and I also have "works" that will be tested, "as if by fire"?

First of all, I totally agree that teachers and evangelists are held to a higher standard then the lay faithful. That does not mean that those who are not teachers and evangelists, like you and I, are "off the hook" in our sins and failures as good Christians before the Lord, Bob. In fact, I have no idea why you are pursuing this line of reasoning.

God's music!

I previously posted the following text:

1 Peter 3:18-19 "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the
just for the unjust; that he might offer us to God, being put to
death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit. In which
also coming he preached to those spirits now in prison."

A slightly different "prison" but one that existed outside of both heaven and hell.

Bob previously replied:

The "prison of death" and the "captives set free" by Christ is a reference to death itself.

However the text of 1Peter 3 deals ONLY with "Those who once WERE disobedient WHEN the patience of God KEPT WAITING IN the days of Noah, DURING the construction of the ark"

I previously replied:

Ah, Bob, if indeed, these souls were the ones who were disobedient as you say, then precisely where is it that they are sequestered that Christ goes to visit them? But if you read carefully verse 20, Peter speak of "eight people in all" were saved! That means that the disobedient souls you speak of were therefore condemned not being saved at all, as the eight were!

Bob's latest reply was:

Actually, I think the focus was on the Christians he is addressing!

(My notes indicate that he was addressing the Christian communities located in five provinces of Asia Minor.)

He starts out in 1 Peter 3:13 with "Who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good?" He goes on to indicate the extent of Christ's sacrifice by turning to those in this "prison." (verse 19) They were long since dead (be it those who were disobedient while the Ark was being built, or during all of the Old Testament era, for that matter) and evidently not in hell, where all salvation is lost; there is no redemption by which Christ would restore them and for which His shed blood does not apply.

I see little connection between the two quotes you attempt to compare here, Bob. And BTW Satan imprisons no one - we do it ourselves by our disobedience, sin and unrepentance! Satan by do a lot of tempting here, but when we succumb to this temptation, it is US who do it.

I don't care who it is that is "imprisoned" here, be it those who lived in Noah's time of Ark building or for all unrepentant sinners during all of Old Testament times, the "prison" they occupy is not hell, but some sort of a "holding pen" if you will, waiting for the salvation of the Messiah to come.

Actually, we see it as a place where the righteous OT saints are sequestered as well(not necessarily in a state of purgation), since the gates of heaven remained closed since Adam and Eve, to be opened once again by the shed blood of the cross.

(Continued in next post)

 

(Continued in previous post)

First of all, in my amateur bible studies and exegesis (and indeed, I am a rank amateur), I have developed sort of a rule of thumb that goes like this:

The further away something is taken in context, the less reliable that context becomes.

Therefore, I look to your Isaiah quote with a well-jaundiced eye. Are the "captives" and "prisoners" Isaiah speaks of here the same as the "captives" and "prisoners" we see in 1 Peter? In fact, I don't even see those words in the 1 Peter quote, albeit those who are in "prison" Peter speaks of are certainly "captives" and "prisoners."

Also, I have no idea where it is you are going with all of this. What is this "prison," Peter is speaking of here where the "disobedient" so sequestered are to be "preached to" by Christ after His resurrection? We have at least two spiritual states most if not all Protestants own up to - heaven and hell. Therefore, if all of these "prisoners" in the "prison," Christ goes to, it must be a spiritual prison, since all of these people are dead, mouldering away in the grave thousands of years ago! (Even in Christ's time!) Therefore, we have at least a third state in the spiritual realm. In sort of a euphemism, some give is the benign title of The Vestibule of heaven. Therein are those who are to be rescued by the preaching of Christ.

Perhaps that term, Vdestibule of heaven is a bit more acceptable then the term Purgatory?

I see little corollary beyond the fact that we see the gospel preached in both places - first to those who are alive, done by Christ while he lived in the flesh and is disciples, and…

…After Christ's resurrection, he descends to the place called a "prison" which can only be a spiritual prison as I have already explained, to souls whose bodies have long since decayed to dust. Nothing you have done here negates the fact that there were souls who were not in heaven and not in hell. Where were they them:

Where I previously said:

Therefore, the only souls that Peter could have been speaking of were the sequestered righteous souls of the Old Testament saints that had to wait for the Messiah to come and rescue them by the cross so that the gates of heaven, closed due to the original sin, opens one more for them to be rescued![/quote]

Bob, the whole reference to "the spirits in prison" was an aside by Peter in his main discourse to the Christian communities he is addressing, partially seen in verse 18 where he tells these Christians:

'For Christ suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh in the flesh, he brought to life in the spirit." (Actually, one should read from verse 1 to get the greater thrust of what he is saying.)

What he says in verse 19 is simply an amplification of other things Christ did, which were to go "preach to the spirit (souls) in prison." And in that side comment, he reveals a clue in a teaching of a third condition in the spiritual realm besides heaven and hell.

When you are ready, I have a good "Catholic" name for this third place!

Sorry, I just did!

I last said:

I'm sorry but I do not understand your reference of 1 Peter 1:11 to 1 Peter 3:18-19.

 

Continued from previous post)

I then replied:

Ah, Bob, here is what my Catholic New American Bible (NAB) says in that verse:

"That is why many of you are ill and infirm and a considerable number are dying."

And my Catholic New Jerusalem Bible (NJB), which scholars considers to be one of the best translations to date going back to the oldest scraps of ancient manuscripts found, has nearly the same rendering:

"That is why many of you are weak and ill and a good number have died."

Bob, I am not a Greek scholar, so I will depend upon the scholarship of those who are better at it then I am in their translations of the ancient text they have at hand today. I contend that it is still a euphemism for death, even the decaying body in the grave (especially when we are, ourselves, to be resurrected again at the last day in our new bodies, as if awakened from :sleep." But to say that we are in a "dormant state" is nonsense, if we are to be judged immediately at our death, or even go directly to heaven as obviously the good thief on the cross was so granted by Christ Himself!

I previously said:

And why is this condition existing when Paul wrote that? Read the two verses ahead of it:

"Everyone is to examine himself and only then eat of the bread or drink from the cup; because a person who eats and drinks without recognising the body is eating and drinking his own condemnation." (verses 28 and 29 - British spelling in the NJB.)

It is obvious that "falling asleep" (probably from the KJV) simply means to become lax in the faith

I stand corrected, as I checked it myself, that indeed, :sleep" is a euphemism for death. But not for any such thing as a "dormant state" you contend. I often hear people say, "He/She has "gone to sleep in the Lord" as a very kindly (euphemistic) way of describing a stark reality of death. Or, "Has gone home to be with the Lord" another good euphemism for the same thing.

I previously said:

It is not a condition after we die, awaiting the general resurrection at the end of the world, else why would verse 30 speak of this "falling asleep" (i.e., becoming "weak and ill") in the faith that would result in death (which I see here is not actual physical death but a relapse into a condition of non-faith and a return to the sins prior to a Christian conversion.)

"We shall not all sleep koimao - but we shall all be changed" 1Cor 15:51[/quote]

I understand, Paul believing that the second coming may come in their lifetime. As I said previously below:

Now here, the word "sleep" is found in my NAB and my NJB, and can be seen as a euphemism for death; having died; in the grave, since Paul expected that some of his contemporaries might still be alive at Christ's second coming.

Let me correct you here: I said "NAB" not the "NASB." Two different animals!

And again, I disagree with you on the assertion that death brings a "dormant state" to the soul as the body obvious goes back to earthly elements.

I previously said:

But what is exactly meant by "sleep" in this case? We read that "the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (verse 52) This continues until we read the beautiful:

"Death is swallowed up in victory.
Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?

Is the good thief on the cross still waiting for this "resurrection" before he sees God and goes to heaven?

I last said:

Is the good thief on the cross still "asleep," awaiting this event, or is he now in heaven as Christ promised; "this day you will be with me in paradise"?

I think I said as much, Christ first being resurrected on the 3rd day, even to first go that that mysterious "prison" we have been discussing, while the thief enjoys the Beatific Vision!

Actually, at death, we enter that great mystery of a state of timelessness, where there is no time flow, therefore, to say who got to heaven first is moot. And as I have stated somewhere before, either in this thread or another, God and the spiritual realm exists in the past, present and future all that the same razor's edge. And like the thief, when we die, we are not in some "dormant" state but come before God's throne in our particular judgment, a doctrine taught from the edges of the apostolic era to today! I know of few non-Catholic communities who teach differently besides the SdA. Was the Church and all the rest of Christianity in error on this point all this time, Bob?

I have also heard it as having "died in Jesus." Yet we live for an eternity in the spiritual realm; our souls. They never die, but end-up in either heaven (with perhaps a bit of purging along the way) or hell.

I previously said:

Again, the word "sleep" is nothing more then an euphemism for death, just as the phrase, "John recently passed away" is a euphemism, softening the finality of the stark and harsh reality of the word - death.

Christ says nothing about a "dormant state." He simply says he :sleeps." We know that the word "sleep" is a predominant euphemism for death, since it does not have the ring of finality. Thus to "wake" Lazarus, He brings him back to life.

We have no idea the state of the soul of Lazarus from the time he died and the instant we awoke, he being in the timeless realm of the spirit. And after about three days (I think?) Lazarus, Jesus even restores a physical body that surely was in the beginning stages of decay! Had Jesus not chosen Lazarus from all eternity to perform this miracle on, Lazarus would have received a judgment from God to determine his spiritual fate. As it was, Lazarus was restored to life, as if he had never died. Being a mortal human, it is obvious that he later died, how much longer after the miracle of his being brought back to life, we don't know. At that time, he again "went to sleep" in the euphemistic term we use for death, and received the judgment of God. He well also appear at the final judgment where we will indeed, be "resurrected" with new supernatural bodies at the end of time.

And so will the good thief be there with him…

Bob previously said:

There is but one judgment for each person after death "For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" Heb 9:27

And I previously replied:

Death obviously precedes the time of judgment. First comes death and then the judgment.

Oh, I knew we would stumble on something we can agree on!

The problem is, there an actual time lapse between "death" and "the judgment"?

I last said:

But when one dies and enters the spiritual realm, there is no time. Thus the judgment occurs within the first nanosecond (if it could even be measured) of one's death.

The only reason you see first "death," followed by "judgment" as we discussed above as scripture cannot adequately, in human terms, as scripture is written, the timelessness of eternity and the spiritual realm, with the time flow realities of this world. In our way of thinking, it cannot be expressed in any other way. So, to "let the bible speak for itself," it must use time flow terms we can understand simply because we cannot understand the concept of a spiritual realm that is outside of time, but timeless. The best we can say is, the spiritual realm is past, present and future all rolled up into one.

(Continued in next message)

 

(Continued from previous message)

Bob previously said:

It is at the Rev 20 great white throne judgment that mankind is tossed into the Lake of Fire.

This is the second death.

And I previously said:

And all this time, I thought Heb. 9:27 said "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die"!

The problem is, does the occurrence of death in Heb 9.27 automatically mean death? What of the thief of the cross, is he still in "soul sleep" or is he in heaven already, like Christ promised? All of us are "appointed once to die," but not all of us will be "cast into the lake of fire."

As for Rev 20:14, my NAB does speak of this "second death," as also seen in Rev 2:11, situation seems to be to those sinners who are condemned in the first place, as at their initial time of death (the Particular Judgment immediately after death, where indeed, those condemned go to hell.) The "second death" refers to these so condemned come forth once again at the General Judgment in that they are then condemned before the whole assembly, and then cast into the "Lake of fire" for the last and final time.

This has been the teaching of the Church for the first 1500 years of church history, Bob. So where did the Church go wrong that the SdA's had to "correct things"? (Are there others who teach as you do in this "soul sleep" business?)

I previously said:

I gotta look more closely into the "soul sleep" business, but so far, I reject it comply out of hand and just another "fruit" of Sola Scriptura

I totally agree, Bob. But I will agree that it came from your interpretation of what you think the Bible says.

Again, the "Fruits of Sola Scriptura…"

Bob then previously posted the following:

"Let Us come BOLDLY before the throne of Grace" due to the ministry of our ONE High Priest - Heb 4:14-16.

Direct and immediate forgiveness of sins is the only model that scripture gives. Never do we see any Christian going to a single NT saint and saying "please ask God to forgive me - because you are my best and only source of forgiveness"

Rather Christ declared that "IN HIS NAME" forgiveness of sins was to be "proclaimed" and that this was the "mission" of His followers - to proclaim that message (Luke 24:47)

This leaves no room for reworking the text of John 20 to mean "you need to go to someone other than Christ for forgiveness of sins".

And I replied:

Again, do a very careful study of John 20:22-23 and give my your best exegesis of those verses. As you do this, you may want to consider the immediate context of what Jesus says when He immediately appeared to the apostles, through a locked door, to say this to them.

Bob, going a little far for context here, there is a foretaste of what is to come when the Jesus forgave the sins of the paralytic in Matthew 9:2. What was the response from the scribes who witnesses all of this?

"This man is blaspheming." (verse 3) They are questioning the audacity of Jesus to do such a thing! And we know the rest of the story when Jesus said, " which is easier to forgive the sins of man or to say get up and walk?" (paraphrased here) And of course, the man is cured and he walks! This foretaste at least proves that Jesus has the power to forgive the sins of men! Being God, Christ can obviously do that, can he?

Now, after coming through that door that was locked, and after He showed them His hands and His side, we read in John 20:19:

"Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." This is the beginning of what I call the Preamble to what Christ is about to do here. This is the beginning of an interesting build-up to something important, Jesus is about to say.

To continue in this Preamble, we read in verse 22: "And when He said this, he breathed on them…"

As I understand, the only other time we see God "breathing" on anyone is when He breathed the breath of life into Adam, the first man, so to see this written here, it continues a build-up to something really big.

Then Christ continues in verse 22: "Receive the Holy Spirit."

The ending phrase of the Preamble that brings Christ to the edge of an awesome pronouncement here. What a let down it would be if it were not such a build up!
Finally, in verse 23, He says, "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sin are retained are retained" (NAB)

Who is the "you" He is speaking to here? The apostles of course. It is to them that He is giving the power we see He possessed back in Matthew 9:2 to the apostles!

Mere fallible men! How can this be, as certainly they are not worthy! (The objections I often hear.)

Let me state it again but a bit differently:

"Whose sins YOU forgive (cause) are forgiven them (effect), and whose sins YOU retain (cause) they are retained them (effect.)

I have had a good laugh when I see others post ole' Matthew Henry's commentary on that set of verses as, "When you forgive sins, it only ratifies what has already been forgiven by God in heaven, etc" (paraphrased from memory) Good ole' Matthew Henry has the cart before the horse!

Let me put it this way: When you turn on the switch (cause) the light goes on (effect); when your turn off the switch (cause) , the light goes out (effect).

Never can it be that the light goes on before the switch is turned on, or go out before the switch is turned off. Get the point here?

What the apostles do in forgiving sins, is thus ratified in heaven! The cause comes before the effect!

On the issue of "worthiness," was Christ worried about it? Now, it is obvious that worthiness is certainly desirable, but again, can any man be worthy of such a power? No, and it seemingly did not bother Christ one bit when He gave the power to forgive or retain sins!

Finally, I have seen the objection that Jesus is simply saying that we must all forgive each other's sins. He has done that already in His Lord's Prayer and other places in scripture. We certainly must forgive each other of our sins against one another. But if you take the John 20:21-23 passages that that, then how can you account for the fact that Christ also says that "sins you retained are retained"? Does that mean that we by choice choose not to forgive another sins against us? If I plead with you, Bob, to forgive me of a transgression against me, are you not obligated to forgive me?

What is different here is, the power to forgive or retain sins Jesus gives to His apostles is a judiciary power; that then hear the confessions of a Christian sinner and choose to either forgive or retain that persons sins. Why retain them? It's simple:

The apostles (later priests and bishops who succeed them) hear the confession of a person, and makes a judgment as to whether the person is sincere or not. He also determines of the person is willing to make amends for the sin. For example, of the person confesses to a theft, and the priests makes the condition for absolution to return the stolen goods or otherwise make restitution, and he refuses, the priest will retain the sin! The man is obviously not sincere in his remorse for the sin he is confessing!

I could go on, but it will give you something to chew on…

Yes, Matthew 18:18 does indeed give the power to "bind and loose" in the judgment of an obstinate sinner who does not recant of his sin or error, and thus be excommunicated from the church! It indeed reinforces the authority of the Church as given by Christ, but the John 20"22-23 quote is mostly judicial in that individual apostles, priests and bishops can absolve or retain the sins of a penitent which, by the way, can indeed be meted-out "corporately" as you imply. That was also done in the early Church. But from the earliest times, confession to a priest was developed to the method we see today. And by the way, the Catholic Church does indeed, allow for a general absolution of a group, but only under strict circumstances to avoid possible abuses.

There is indeed, another way, and I have just explained it to you!

But what do you do if "God alone" give the power to men to forgive or retain the sins of men? It is before you, in black and white, in John 20:22-23!

And this was the practice for the firsrt 1500 years of church history! But Luther and others knew better in the 16th century?

I don't think so…

God bless,

PAX

Rome has spoken, case is closed.


Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

OK, I do recall that the Lutherans, at least in the beginning, had confessions as well.

Thanks for reminding me!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

Sad to say, I do think is has occurred in the Catholic Church as well, at least here in America. You simply do not see the Saturday evening confessional lines like we used to, but I do think it is coming back.

In it's 2,000 year history, the "infallible church" has "fallible members," and as such laxity creeps in, just like in other human societies. Every now and then, we need a "wealke-up call." And by the way, I at least give Luther credit for exposing abuses in the Church!

I once read a Catholic theologian say, "If Luther had stayed in the Church, worked with the Church in curing those abuses instead of eventually abandoning the Catholic Church, he would be a great saint today in the stature of St. Catherine of Sienna." (paraphrased from memory)

I also realize the "hard heads" on the Catholic side that are at fault themselves for "pushing" Luther to that brink...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


- Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.

 

Private confession and absolution is a means of grace that should not be despised or neglected in our churches:

 

Here is a lovely Reformation hymn on Confession and Absolution:

Yea, as I Live, Jehovah Saith by Nikolaus Herman
Yea, as I live, Jehovah saith,
I would not have the sinner's death,
But that he turn from error's ways,
Repent, and live through endless days.
2. To us therefore Christ gave command:
Go forth and preach in every land;
Bestow on all My pardoning grace
Who will repent and mend their ways.
3. All those whose sins ye thus remit
I truly pardon and acquit,
And those whose sins ye do retain
Condemned and guilty shall remain.
4. What ye shall bind, that bound shall be:
What ye shall loose, that shall be free;
Unto My Church the keys are given
To open and close the gates of heaven.
5. They who believe when ye proclaim
The joyful tidings in My name
That I for them My blood have shed,
Are free from guilt and Judgment dread.
6. The words which absolution give
Are His who died that we might live;
The minister whom Christ has sent
Is but His humble instrument.
7. However great our sin may be,
The absolution sets us free,
Appointed by God's own dear Son
To bring the pardon He has won.
8. When ministers lay on their hands,
Absolved by Christ the sinner stands;
He who by grace the Word believes
The purchase of His blood receives.
9. This is the power of Holy Keys,
It binds and doth again release;
The Church retains them at her side,
Our mother and Christ's holy Bride.
10. All praise, eternal Son, to Thee
For absolution full and free,
In which Thou showest forth Thy grace;
From false indulgence guard our race.
11. Praise God the Father and the Son
And Holy Spirit, Three in One,
As 'twas, is now, and so shall be
World without end, eternally!

 

Hummm, looks like a song us Catholics can sing as well! On a first read, I see nothing that bars us from singing that ourselves!

I betcha you don't sing this one:

1. 0 saving Victim, op'ning wide
The gate of heav'n to all below,
Our foes press on from ev'ry side;
Thine aid supply, thy strength bestow.

2. All praise and thanks to thee ascend
Forevermore, blest One in Three;
0 grant us life that shall not end
In our true native land with thee.
Amen.

by Edward Caswall, 1814-1878

1. 0 salutaris Hostia,
Quae caeli pandis ostium:
Bella premitnt hostilia,
Da robur, fer auxilium.

2. Uni trinoque Domino
Sit sempitera gloria,
Qui vitam sine tirmino
Nobis donet in patria.

Amen.

St. Thomas Aquinas, c. 1227-1274

It is only part of the ceremony this is sung.

Here is the rest of it:

1. Humbly let us voice our homage
For so great a sacrament;
Let all former rites surrender
To the Lord's New Testament;
What the senses fail to fathom,
Let us grasp through faith's consent!
2. Glory, honor, adoration
Let us sing with one accord!
Praised be God, almighty Father;
Praised be Christ, his Son, our Lord;
Praised be God the Holy Spirit;
Triune Godhead, be adored!

Amen.

Melvin L. Farrell, 1930-1986


1. Tantum ergo sacramentum
Veneremur cernui:
Et antiquum doctumentum
Novo cedat ritui;
Praestet fides supplementum
Sensuum defectui.

2. Genitori, Genitoque
Laus et jubilatio:
Salus, honor, virtus quoque
Sit et benedictio:
Procedenti ab utroque
Compar sit laudatio.

Amen.

St. Thomas Aquinas, c. 1227-1274


Can you guess what that ceremony is? (All other Catholics hush up now.... )

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep

and watch over those
you have gathered.

Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.

You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

 

Hummm, looks like a song us Catholics can sing as well! On a first read, I see nothing that bars us from singing that ourselves!

I betcha you don't sing this one:

1. 0 saving Victim, op'ning wide
The gate of heav'n to all below,
Our foes press on from ev'ry side;
Thine aid supply, thy strength bestow.

2. All praise and thanks to thee ascend
Forevermore, blest One in Three;
0 grant us life that shall not end
In our true native land with thee.
Amen.

by Edward Caswall, 1814-1878

1. 0 salutaris Hostia,
Quae caeli pandis ostium:
Bella premitnt hostilia,
Da robur, fer auxilium.

2. Uni trinoque Domino
Sit sempitera gloria,
Qui vitam sine tirmino
Nobis donet in patria.

Amen.

St. Thomas Aquinas, c. 1227-1274

It is only part of the ceremony this is sung.

Here is the rest of it:

1. Humbly let us voice our homage
For so great a sacrament;
Let all former rites surrender
To the Lord's New Testament;
What the senses fail to fathom,
Let us grasp through faith's consent!
2. Glory, honor, adoration
Let us sing with one accord!
Praised be God, almighty Father;
Praised be Christ, his Son, our Lord;
Praised be God the Holy Spirit;
Triune Godhead, be adored!

Amen.

Melvin L. Farrell, 1930-1986


1. Tantum ergo sacramentum
Veneremur cernui:
Et antiquum doctumentum
Novo cedat ritui;
Praestet fides supplementum
Sensuum defectui.

2. Genitori, Genitoque
Laus et jubilatio:
Salus, honor, virtus quoque
Sit et benedictio:
Procedenti ab utroque
Compar sit laudatio.

Amen.

St. Thomas Aquinas, c. 1227-1274

Can you guess what that ceremony is? (All other Catholics hush up now.... )

But here is a hint: It is having to do with the holy Eucharist.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep

and watch over those
you have gathered.

Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.

You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

 

If you mean the adoration, Lutherans believe that it is an error

 

First of all, you guessed it right!

I think the Lutherens, (Anglicans too, I suspect) believe that the "real presence" disappears when the communion service is over, that what is left over in the hosts and the consecrated wine, cease to be the body and blood of Christ. you can correct me on this...

Of course, that leaves us and the Orthodox that would dispute you, albeit I don't think the Orthodox reserve the consecrated species in a "tabernacle" as we do (including the Eastern Rites, who are "in union with Rome.")

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Not riches, but God.
Not honors, but God.
Not distinction, but God.
Not dignities, but God.
Not advancement, but God.
God always and in everything.

- St. Vincent Pallotti -

 

I don't think any Lutherans believe that the "real presence" disappears but some believe that, if consecrated elements are not distributed and received, there was no real presence within these elements to begin with: Nihil habet rationem sacramenti extra usum a Christo institutum ("Nothing has the nature of a sacrament apart from the use instituted by Christ").(I don't see how this position is tenable with the common cup or with individual cups that are partially consumed)

I'm sure Luther would not agree with any of this. He was careful not to consecrate anymore than was needed and he would consume any remaining elements before the end of the service. If there was a spill during the service, he would lick it up immediately. Any clothing or wood that it had come in contact with would be burned.

[ July 23, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

I don't think any Lutherans believe that the "real presence" disappears but some believe that, if consecrated elements are not distributed and received, there was no real presence within these elements to begin with: Nihil habet rationem sacramenti extra usum a Christo institutum ("Nothing has the nature of a sacrament apart from the use instituted by Christ").(I don't see how this position is tenable with the common cup or with individual cups that are partially consumed)

I'm sure Luther would not agree with any of this. He was careful not to consecrate anymore than was needed and he would consume any remaining elements before the end of the service. If there was a spill during the service, he would lick it up immediately. Any clothing or wood that it had come in contact with would be burned. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, a Catholic Chaplain aboard ship would count heads to see how many were going to communion. then he would consecrate the amount of hosts to cover the need, with a few more for good measure for late comers. What was left, he consumed. Likewise for the consecrated wine, which is never reserved, but consumed after Mass.

The big difference, it seems, that Luther did not care to keep what was remaining and reserve in a tabernacle, as is the practice in all normal Catholic Churches. That way, the priest can bring communnion to the sick.

How would Luther bring communion to a sick person in a hospital or bedridden at home?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

Confessional Lutherans believe only called ministers should administer the Sacrament to the sick. (However, in an emergency, any Christian can pronounce absolution.) Lutheran Pastors have a small communion kit of wine and communion wafers. They speak the verba over the elements and immediately distribute them.