Purgatory, Foundation

#3. Chapter 3 of 1Cor 3 deals with the "teaching" of various Christian teachers and

#1. asserts strongly that "Christ is the ONE foundation of the church" and that "NTHER foundation can be laid" by any teacher.

#2. States that the TEACHING of the various evangelists as their work

#3. Shows that it is their TEACHING that is tried and burned acccording to its "value" Not the Person as "Purgatory doctrines" would need it to say.

See points 1, 2 and 3 above again.

Bill replied

No - because

#1. Purgatory is not mentioned at all in this chapter.

#2. Purgatory would "need" the "person" to be burned - NOT their teaching. And this chapter talks about the WORKS burned and the Works being the ministry of the evangelists.

#3. Nothing in 1Cor 3 says that it is only AFTER the person dies that their WORKS are burned. (Purgatory would insist that only AFTER the person dies is the PERSON burned in some way).

To a lesser degree - since James already states that those in teaching authority receive this "stricter" judgment - but we do not.

And Bill previously replied with a question:

Bob Answers --

Do not seek to become teachers KNOWING that as such we will incur a STRICTER judgment" James 3:1


HOWEVER in 1Cor 3- it is the EVANGELIST's WORKS that are burned IF they do not measure up - the WORK of planting, watering etc - the WORK that is LISTED the WORK that may deviate from presenting Christ as "The ONE and ONLY foundation" that is laid for the doctrines and teachings of the church.

Sins and failures are not the subject of 1Cor 3. It does not state that "Some sins and failures are gold and some are hay and stubble". The subject is the WORKS of the evangelists and it is the WORKS that are burned if they are inferior - not the person.

James 4 as stated above applies the stricter judgment ONLY to the teachers.

There is simply no way to change that.

Yes the "error" is purged out of the church - burned away from the church - removed from the church but the PERSON is not burned.


In Christ,

Bob

 

Confessional Lutherans believe only called ministers should administer the Sacrament to the sick. (However, in an emergency, any Christian can pronounce absolution.) Lutheran Pastors have a small communion kit of wine and communion wafers. They speak the verba over the elements and immediately distribute them. </font>[/QUOTE]Hummmm, that's almost like "saying Mass on the spot!"

Of course, a priest or bishop is the only one who can say Mass, but not "on the spot" like that! The canon of the Church requires that the species be consecrated in a regular Mass, and then reserved as required, being able then to take the Eucharist to them in what is called pix. A small round, usually gold plated receptacle to contain the host and bring to the person that is sick. In fact, even lay persons, per Vatican II, can now be authorized to bring comunion to the sick, and indeed, I was so empowered to do so when my wife was recovering from an operation. I was able to bring communion home to her and give it to her, using appropriate prayers that included the Lord's Prayer.


As for the Luthern practice, I learn something new everyday!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

WPutnam,

I have some questions for you. Can people who are not Priests distribute the eucharist? Can any Roman Catholic deliver the Host to the sick? Can women distribute the Blood of Christ to a congregation?

Isn't there a concern that without supervision by a Priest the Body and Blood of Christ could be delivered to non-Catholics or Catholics under a ban?

Note: I wrote my questions before I saw your post.

 

We must be passing one another in the night!

Actually, I gave the answer in my last reply to you! It was a privilage granted in Vatican II, whereas before, a lay person could not handle the Eucharist, including the sacred vessels that contained them. The rules were relaxed for practical reasons, allowing trained and authorized lay persons to distribute communion in a church when a priest is not availblle, take the Eucharist to the sick and so forth. Authorized lay "Eucharistic ministers" can now help a priest distribute communion at Mass, and also "purify" the chalice and other vessels after communion is given.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

 

Bob previously replied:

Bob's latest reply was:

Bill replied --

There is no question that he was writing TO first Century NT Saints - but In the text of 1Peter 3 we "see" the text specifically reference those who were in rebellion WHILE the ark was being built IN those days WHILE the patience of God KEPT waiting. It is an isolated point in time, and isolated group AND it is done to FOCUS on the fact that "Baptism NOW saves" just as the ARK saved Noah and his REAL family in those REAL days.

There is no way to turn this into a "lecture to the dead".

Excellent Bill! that is EXACTLY what your view "NEEDS" it to say - but INSTEAD of saying "all the wicked dead prior to the cross - from the time of Noah until now - were being preached to after Christ died" IT says NOTHING about the wicked EXCEPT for JUST the generation AT the time of the ark WHILE it was being built.

It does so because we have the SAME issue today - the Spirit of Christ testifying to the people of Noah's day - and the Spirit of Christ testifying to us today. The ARK - vs Baptism - the SAVED responding to the Gospel vs all those wicked rebelling against the Gospel and NOT being saved today JUST as they were NOT saved back then.

"Corresponding to THAT - Baptism NOW saves you".

The point is clear in the text.

Indeed. Both of them reference the work of the "Spirit of Christ" preaching the Gospel IN the OT.

Actually - when we read Ephesians 2:1-4 here is what we find..


Eph 2
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
...
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

No - the wicked at the time of Noah - who perish go to hell. The text does not select out Noah as the one the Spirit of God is going to - but the Wicked and indeed those who perished - and who go to hell. But only IN that specific generation - to show the Contrast between the ARK - and the lost, 'And Corresponding to That Baptism NOW saves you.. The APPEAL to God for a clean conscience" Something that is done IN THIS life.

We saw no "sequestering of the righteous" in 1Peter 3 - rather we see the Patience of God AND the Spirit of Christ ministering to the lost - sinners in rebellion AGAINST God "the disobedient" wicked.

note --

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#3. The people being prayed for are guilty of mortal sin AND the text SAYS that the "reason" they are dead is a direct judgment of God on their mortal sin of idolatry - so EVEN the RCC would not admit them into Purgatory.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wishful thinking Bill "inspite" of the explicit statement in the text that all that was worthless APART from the resurrection.

quote: Bob said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#4. That chapter ALSO says that the ONLY benefit of that prayer was with respect to the resurrection and that WITHOUT that resurrection event - the prayer was not doing anything - it was meaningless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well - it is right there IN the text.

#1 He calls them "The DEAD" not "The LIVING".

#2 He states that they were "JUDGED" for their mortal sin of idolatry.

#3 He states that WITHOUT the resurrection the entire exercise was pointless.

#5. The focus is not on “indulgences” but “atoning Sacrifice” and “Blotting out of SIN” .


In Christ,

Bob

 

With the loss of 1Peter 3, 2Macc 12 and 1Cor 3 from the list - what does "Purgatory" have "left"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob previously replied:

And I previously replied:

So what? If they practice a bad teaching, is that not to be burned as a poor works, yet the individual is saved even while he "suffers a loss"?

I'm confused…..

Bob then added:

Note also the SAME text say "NTHER foundation can anyone lay OTHER than that has been laid which is CHRIST" - and the WORKS are tried and tested - the teaching and doctrine is tested to see how closely it measure to that standard.

SO if (for example) they teach that the foundation is Peter instead of Christ - that TEACHING will be cast aside.

IF they teach that Jesus Christ is NOT the Messiah ( a mistake of the one true Hebrew nation Church that is STILL taught today) that teaching too will be cast aside.

I am not disputing that at all, Bob. Indeed, we are seeing the "workers" here as those who are in the clergy, doing the preaching, teaching and evangelizing. So, are you saying that such individuals are the only ones who are in danger of purgatory at their judgment?

Neither is the word, Trinity," Bob!

I have no idea when the word, "purgatory" was coined, Bob, but verses 13 - 15 indicate a process of judgment that will test the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw," disclosed by being "revealed with fire," that will be "burned-up" whereas one will "suffer loss" yet the person will be "saved."

Now, can you think of a time other then the moment of our death and judgment by God? And in that condition, we are no longer in the physical world but the spiritual realm. While this "purification process" is going, on, we are not yet in heaven (and if we were hell-bound, there would be no "purification" that would do any good, would there?

I got a good name for the "condition" we are in when we endure (if necessary) this process…

OK, so how do they "suffer loss"?

If it does not say that to your satisfaction, then describe for me precisely what is going on when a person is subjected to this process. Does it happen on earth, and if so, please describe it for me.

I then previously added:

if those in authority are subjected to such a judgment, so also are all of us, don't you think?

But you do admit that we have to make an accounting before God, be we Pope, bishop, priest, deacon, lay person, SdA, Baptist, dish and bottle washer, you name it, right, Bob? If so, then we will be tested "as if by fire" and our "works" be burned-up if like straw" (I'm paraphrasing a bit here) just like the teachers and preachers, being responsible as God would expect of us in the position of trust we may hold. And by the way, I think it is quite high for parents who are charged with instilling the gospel of Christ and by example to their own children, even as they are of the laity.

Bob then said:

And I replied:

Are you saying that the lay person, not a minister of evangelist, will not suffer the same scrutiny before the Lord as His or her death? Do you and I also have "works" that will be tested, "as if by fire"?

We agree here! I think James is simply warning us that to become teachers, we better be aware of the greater expectation by God in our service in that task.

But the point I am trying to make is, while the judgment is based upon the responsibility, all are judged in any case, and the "testing by fire" applies to all of us, minister, priest or preacher or lay person.

And that takes me back to my original query: At what point I our lives is this done - sometime during our lifetime; at the moment of our death, or when?

Bob, I presume you are married with a family. Are you not also responsible for your actions to teach your children, to be an example to them, or otherwise in the large picture, be the Christian example in your relationship to others, you charity and your good works (Yikes! The word "works!")

The way you are talking then the coined term "purgatory" is applicable to minister and evangenists!

I previously said:

First of all, I totally agree that teachers and evangelists are held to a higher standard then the lay faithful. That does not mean that those who are not teachers and evangelists, like you and I, are "off the hook" in our sins and failures as good Christians before the Lord, Bob. In fact, I have no idea why you are pursuing this line of reasoning.

Therefore, the laity can sin without consequences? Even as I have been "saved" at a good ole' tent revival, from then on, furthering sins have no effect, that I am still saved even while I may commit even the most heinous of offenses against Almighty God?

I am not attempting to "change" the meaning of your 1 Cor. quote, Bob, but interpret it as best I can, and so far, I see the admonishment, certainly directed here to evangelists and teachers, who do indeed bear a greater responsibility, extend also to all of us in our walk of life here on earth.

In any case, you steer away from the actions we do see against teachers and evangelists. When does this occur, Bob? Somehow during their lifetime or at their death? How is it that then "suffer loss" even while they are still saved?


Bob previously said:

#3. Chapter 3 of 1Cor 3 deals with the "teaching" of various Christian teachers and asserts strongly that "Christ is the ONE foundation of the church" and that "NTHER foundation can be laid" by any teacher. It then goes on to describe the TEACHING of the various evangelists as their work - and shows that it is their TEACHING that is tried and burned acccording to its "value".

And I previously responded:

So what? If they practice a bad teaching, is that not to be burned as a poor works, yet the individual is saved even while he "suffers a loss"?

How does this person "suffer loss" even while he or she is saved, Bob? Also, can you describe this "fire" a bit more for me? And precisely when does this occur for the individual?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

I see your other reply here as well,
bob, but I am only going to answer this one as we are getting nowhere.

Of course you will continue to exclude the deuterocanonicals because of it's stark reference to a condition in the spiritual realm where sins can indeed, be forgiven. the books of 1 and 2 Maccdabees was considered scriputre for the first 1500 years of Christianity, and you "Johnny-come lately" communities now come along and discard them? Incredable!

I will leave you with the following link for your reading enjoyment:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm

As for the other references you think you have negated, try again, Bob. You do not even come close, sorry!

Gotta go, have big company staying for the next four days...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

Bill - you have simply been dodging the points that disconfirm your views.

Here is a perfect example --


#3. Chapter 3 of 1Cor 3 deals with the "teaching" of various Christian teachers and asserts strongly that "Christ is the ONE foundation of the church" and that "NTHER foundation can be laid" by any teacher. It then goes on to describe the TEACHING of the various evangelists as their work - and shows that it is their TEACHING that is tried and burned acccording to its "value".

#1. The point has been made that IN the text the "works" are the teaching and ministry of the evangelist.

Bill's "dodge" has been to try to get that to apply to something OTHER than what the text says.

#2. The point is made SHOWING how the TEACHING and the VALUE of the teaching is tested - NOT the PERSON burned in fire.

Bill's "dodge" has been to ignore the text and to "hope" that this could be applied to something OTHER than what the text specifies. Perhaps to "SIN". But that would mean it is the 'quality of sin is what is being tested' in the 1cor 3 text INSTEAD of the quality of the ministry. Pointed out - and yet Bill does not advance his own point by responding to that.

#3. It has been pointed out that the NOTHING in the text points to the fire as occuring ONLY after the death of the evangelist.

Bill simply ignores that point.

Having failed to show Purgatory's key points IN 1Cor 3 - simply repeating the sidestep responses does not advance the argument in favor of Purgatory.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob replied:

Quoting one of your previous statements:

#3. Chapter 3 of 1Cor 3 deals with the "teaching" of various Christian teachers and asserts strongly that "Christ is the ONE foundation of the church" and that "NTHER foundation can be laid" by any teacher. It then goes on to describe the TEACHING of the various evangelists as their work - and shows that it is their TEACHING that is tried and burned acccording to its "value".

To which, Bob quotes my initial reply:

So what? If they practice a bad teaching, is that not to be burned as a poor works, yet the individual is saved even while he "suffers a loss"?

Bob, you realize you are defeating yourself here, because if I were to concede your point, that 1 Cr. 3 applies strictly to the evangelists and teachers, the point is still made that if these teachers and evangelists have "straw and stubble" as their works rather then "gold, silver and precious stones," then they well be burned-up and "suffer a loss" even while they are still saved! In other words, purgatory exists only for the teachers and evangelists and not for other Christians!

Common sense tells me that this is naturally extended to all of us, even while the teachers and evangelists bear the greater responsibility before God, we all still bear responsibility to God regardless of our responsibilities, large or small. Does a Father have a responsibility to care for his family, that is not "tested in fire" as well? Is not your personal responsibility to be the good Christian example to others a responsibility that you will be examined for well?

Bob, nit pick this all you want, but I am confident that as my works go a'burning "as by fire," I will "suffer" for it. Or can I say that, Bob's "dodge" that does not explain the "suffering of a loss" results of what is
"burned" as chaff and straw?

Can you tell me when this occurs if not at death, Bob? Is the implication that this occurs at death and at a judgment before God so tenuously seen in you bias, when it speaks loud and clear to this "Catholic" mind?

Can you precisely pin-point for me, exactly when all of this "straw, stubble, gold, silver, precious stones" is "tested by fire," Bob?

Bill simply ignores that point.

Having failed to show Purgatory's key points IN 1Cor 3 - simply repeating the sidestep responses does not advance the argument in favor of Purgatory.[/quote]

No, I don't ignore it, Bob, but I will admit that I am not glib of tongue enough to convince you.

I propose that I "advance the argument" for purgatory for which you have been unable to refute at all by going off onto tangents, such as to make the argument that 1 Cor. 3 speaks strictly to evangelists and teachers, assuming that it is therefore not applicable for the rest of us Christians in our own responsibilities before God, is a tangent indeed that does nothing to refute my comment on it.

You then fail to see that it does not address the idea that this is a judgment before God that results in a "suffering" yet one is still saved. Explain that for me please, Bob…

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


"…Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now…"

1 Peter 3:20-21

 

As has been stated repeatedly in response to that - the text never says "THEY are burned" ... only the doctrine of purgatory says "THEY are burned".

You consistently avoid that point and as you state above - simply re-insert the assumptions of Pergatory - missing from the chapter in the form of --

evangelists have "straw and stubble" as their works rather then "gold, silver and precious stones," then they well be burned-up and "suffer a loss" even while they are still saved!

"They" in your quote are the PEOPLE.

But the WORKS in 1Cor3 are not People - and they ARE what is "burned".

Why not simply address the point?

Clearly the doctrine of Purgatory "NEEDS" the text to say the PEOPLE are burned - and that - after death only -- however I am pointing out what the text "actually" says.

In Christ,

Bob

 

As has been stated repeatedly in response to that - the text never says "THEY are burned" ... only the doctrine of purgatory says "THEY are burned".</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, but my text above is a bit ambiguous.

Indeed, it is the works that are "burned-up" and not the individuals whose works are being tested. But who does the "suffering of loss," Bob?

Let me re-write that a bit:

...evangelists (that) have "straw and stubble" as their works rather then "gold, silver and precious stones" will have that straw and stubble burned-up, and they will "suffer a loss" even while they are still saved.

How do they "suffer a loss," Bob?

Are not the evengelists and teachers "people," Bob? And while indeed the quote speaks of their "straw and stubble" works being burned, why then do they suffer a loss yet are still saved?

I did say in one of my posts that to have one's works "burned" is equivalent to themselves being burned (so that they suffer the pangs of being burned) as a discription of how one may "suffer loss." Your being insistance that the individual is not burned does not negate the case for a judgment being rendered that brings a suffering of a loss at the end of life (or some other time you think?)

Bob, I will try to make it as simple as I can.

We see that individuals (specifically preachers and evangelists) who are having their works of "straw, stubble, precious stones, silver, gold, etc." being tested by what is described as "fire." That these works that do not meet the test of quality are "burned up." The individual "suffers a loss" yet the individual is still saved.

If that is not a perfect discription of a purgative action during our judgment before God, I don't know what is...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

This looks like a Bill/Bob Only discussion, but.....

If the scripture admits that the individual is saved both before And after
the burning of works, the individual didn't really lose anything. Therefore, whatever
the actions were, they did not constitute loss of salvation.

OSAS Reigns..!!

Intentional Sin causes loss of salvation? Not in the case of missing mass for a
Baptist, Methodist or SDA. It's a moral sin (in the mind of) a RC to miss mass
but not for me.

Deeds/false teachings can't burn in purgatory when purgatory doesn't exist, so
it must happen during a lifetime or at judgement.

 

You are jumping to a conclusion that does not exist. You see, if one goes to purgatory, the individual is indeed, saved, even while his poor works are "burned" and he "suffers a loss" yet is still saved.

In other words, when one goes to purgatory, one can do a sigh of relief since that individual is not being condemned to HELL! Heaven is just around the corner!

Hell, where there is everlasting torment for all eternity..........from which there is no reprieve.

You speak of missing Mass. Did you do that intentionally or were you simply prevented from attending Mass due to illness or unavoidable business? Missing Mass can only be a mortal sin that condemns if it is done deliberately and in defiance to the Church.

How about murder, adultary, stealing from the poor, etc.? If an individual who is "saved," were to stumble in temptation and commit one of these sins that is not followed by remorse and a forgiveness, what then, sir? Is the person still saved? If so, then we have a "license to sin" for the saved individual!

I have some scripture quotes for you that demolish the idea of OSAS, and if you wish, I will give them to you.

Yes, at judgment, of course, albeit it could be satisfied during one's lifetime, called making restitution and doing penance.

But if indeed, it is done doing a judgment before God, is not the "burning" something that is done to purify the individual soul that it may be "as white as snow" prior to entering heaven? Perhaps it would be better if I were to say this is done in "the Vestibule of Heaven" so that the word "purgatory" won't bother you.

God bless,

PAX

Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

The word "Purgatory" doesn't bother me because I grew up and matured and
accepted Christ without any knowledge of it at all. To me, it was and is a figure
of speech of the RCC of which I don't understand nor did I read of the need of
it in the simple steps to salvation.

Much like you do not adhere to the SDA teachings of honoring rest beginning at
sundown on Friday. Possibly you did not ever come to that understanding and
therefore put no emphasis on its importance in your pursuit of eternal life.

Same with me and all of these latterday concoctions of the RCC; they were not
important enough to gain entry into the bible and not important enough to be
involved in the methods of salvation to early Christians, so that's why I don't
put any faith in them.

Some of us are still saved by faith through grace alone as instructed by Christ
and his apostles. Salvation (as with our Catholic brothers) is still by grace and
it's just a matter of what we choose to put our faith in . As for me, I put my faith
in the fact that Jesus rose from the dead in my place....forgiving my sins with His
shed blood due to the fact that I "believe in Him".

My faith in purgatory and baptism with water, an appointed church, apostolic
succession, the eucharist and modern day forgivers of sin is NIL .

Thousands get saved without the work of those heresies and I couldn't ask
for more.

 

Not at all. All are welcome.

#1 The works are burned - not the person.

#2. This text is not dealing with the problem of a saved person that turns from God - but rather a saved person whose teaching attempts (in some degree) to lay ANOTHER foundation for the church OTHER than Christ.

That "error" gets burned away - in the true body of Christ. But just because the evangelist is "illinformed" on some point - does not mean they are in "rebellion". So it is not an OSAS issue to start with.

True. In fact nothing in the text indicates that these false teachings will only b dealt with AFTER the evangelist dies.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Is this addressed to Bill?


In Christ,

Bob

 

The "loss" is that their teaching does not bear fruit in the body of Christ - instead it is cut out. In 2Cor 3:1-4 makes the point that the disciples of these evangelists "are their letter".

In Romans 1:13 Paul states that he desires to come to Rome "in order that I may obtain some fruit among you". His "reward" was in the saved that are fed by his gospel. But if is "work" is hay and stubble - worthless for growth and to be removed from the body of Christ - then his effort - his work is largely nullified. Just a farmer who loses his crop.

In Christ,

Bob