Purgatory Or The Judgment Seat of Christ?

[BobRyan]

Grant --
Mortal sin requires that the person who committed the grave sin had full knowledge and consent of will to do so

Grant - we got the 10 commandments FROM THEM not they from us. They knew even BETTER than the Christians of the first century - what the first commandment was talking about.

So - by RC definitions - they were at the top of the food chain - knowing more than anyone about the definition of Idolatry and what commandment declared it to be a sin worthy of death. In Israel idolatry would not ONLY get you spiritual condemnation but ALSO you could be sentenced to literal death. There is no way to hide this one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Idolatry is considered by the RCC to be "a mortal sin". All the dead in 2Macc 12 died while practicing idol worship and that is the very sin for which the offering is made - and for which the RCC claims NO soul would qualify for Purgatory NOR would any indulgence (if it had been mentioned in 2Macc 12) apply in that case.

The soldiers in 2Macc. were wearing amulets under their armor. I know that this offense was thought of as grave in the time of Judah however, I am not aware that the wearing of an amulet is considered a mortal sin in the Catholic Church.

Murder...yep, that's a biggie. Lucky charms? Don't think so.

As it turns out - EVEN for Catholics Idol worship is a "mortal sin" but I can see how there might be some doubt about that for some Catholics.

If you need another quote from the "Faith Explained" (Cath commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post vatican II) about Mortal sin and the commandment against idolatry - I am glad to quote it.

I don't believe that the soldiers in 2Macc. turned away from or abandoned God completely, they just wanted a little help from another 'god' if that god had any power at all.
Sort of like the foxhole atheist who says, "Oh God, if there is a God. Save my soul if I have a soul."

Probablly "seems" like a small enough thing from a Catholic perspective - but doctrinally even the Catholic church has managed to retain some clarity on that.


2Macc 12
40 “Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became Clear to ALL this was why the men had fallen.
41 “so they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;


It was "clear to ALL" that the sin had been committed and that judgment had fallen on those who were wearing these idols. For tghey found on each one of them "sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia which the law forbids the Jews to wear.

No good way to cover this sin up as though the Jews had no idea what their own 10 commandments said.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

St. Paul tells us of the man who "will be saved, but only as through fire" and such a man "will suffer loss" (1 Cor 3:15).

Catholics just put a name to what St. Paul is describing. We call it "Purgatory". We could call it "Perelandra", and that would work. Or, we could call it "Venus" or "Pookey" or we could have selected from a seemingly infinite list of names.

Irregardless of what we call it, the process of being saved as by fire, suffering loss started with St. Paul, not the Catholic Church.

Sounds good - except this is actually a reference to 1Cor 3. Even the most casual perusal of the chapter shows no reference to purgatory OR to the "SINS" of the given person being burned/purged/atoned/put-away through fire.

NO reference to the person being burned after they die OR to the person being burned at all - or to the person going through fire at all.

No reference to prayers to the dead or for the dead in 1Cor 3.

No reference to indulgences or the sufferings of saints on earth going up to get the dead souls out of Purgatory or out of fire.

None of it is in 1Cor 3.

So - maybe another text?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Carson writes
St. Paul tells us of the man who "will be saved, but only as through fire" and such a man "will suffer loss" (1 Cor 3:15).

Catholics just put a name to what St. Paul is describing. We call it "Purgatory". We could call it "Perelandra", and that would work. Or, we could call it "Venus" or "Pookey" or we could have selected from a seemingly infinite list of names.

Irregardless of what we call it, the process of being saved as by fire, suffering loss started with St. Paul, not the Catholic Church.

Sounds good - except this is actually a reference to 1Cor 3. Even the most casual perusal of the chapter shows no reference to purgatory OR to the "SINS" of the given person being burned/purged/atoned/put-away through fire.

NO reference to the person being burned after they die OR to the person being burned at all - or to the person going through fire at all.

No reference to prayers to the dead or for the dead in 1Cor 3.

No reference to indulgences or the sufferings of saints on earth going up to get the dead souls out of Purgatory or out of fire.

None of it is in 1Cor 3.

So - maybe another text?

In Christ,

Bob [/QUOTE]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Armando:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Armando:
OK, so at the end, we all agree that we will be judged by Our Lord before going to heaven?

Now, if we are going to be judged by Our Lord, and let's say that the judgement will take 2 seconds. In those two seconds, are we going to be in heaven or in hell?

In those 2 seconds, how are we suppose to feel when we see our life in retrospective and realized the good and the bad things we did and didn't do?

Thanks

Armando

Do you think that having someone praying for the remission of your sins is going to change the condition of your faith? it is after all is said and done, that Faith is the means of salvation, the difference between Heaven and hell. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, let's try again. Let's assume that I am saved by faith. Am I not going to be judged by Our Lord at the end of times? Or would I automatically be in heaven without being judged at all? If I being judged, during that period, would I be in heaven or hell?

Thanks </font>[/QUOTE]Scripture tells us that all of the places that are holding "the dead" will be emptied and the great and small alike will be judged.

Paul tells us that being absent from the body is being present with the Lord. I suppose those lacking faith will not be included in this scene.

So it seems there are a variety of places that one can be, but none of them are called purgatory, and there is no indication there are any second chances.

 

[Glen Seeker]

Yelsew,

Scripture tells us that all of the places that are holding "the dead" will be emptied and the great and small alike will be judged.

Are these places Heaven, Hell or somewhere else?

Paul tells us that being absent from the body is being present with the Lord. I suppose those lacking faith will not be included in this scene.

Not exactly. Paul says that he would rather absent from the body and present with the Lord. Just as I would rather be in a larger house that was paid for than a two bedroom (family of seven) facing foreclosure.

So it seems there are a variety of places that one can be, but none of them are called purgatory, and there is no indication there are any second chances.

Has any Catholic ever said that Purgatory was a "second chance?" Not so, my dear Yelsew, not so. Those who die bound for Hell get a "Go Directly to Hell...Do Not Pass the Gates" card.

Those who die bound for heaven who have some stain of sin on their souls must have that stain cleansed (purged) before going to that place into which nothing unclean may enter. The process of that cleaning is Purgatory.

That's how I see it. You're welcome to agree with me...or not.

 

[Yelsew]

Rev 20:13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Well I've never seen heaven or hell described as having a sea. Only the Earth.

I've never seen anything attributed to heaven as containing the dead.

We have scriptures that speak of the unsaved going to hell.

We have scriptures that speak of Hades, with little disclosure as to what or where it is.

We have scriptural declaration that it is appointed unto man, once to die and then the judgment, so all men die.

Perhaps Lazarus, Jesus' friend, could tell us, he's been dead and brought back to life. But Nope the scriptures are silent about where he went.

We also have no indication that there is such a thing as time outside of this natural life. Only events. Eternity requires no time lest some become "clockwatchers" for ever.
------------------------
Here are two different sayings from Paul. He tells the Corinthians that He knows that while we live we are absent from the Lord and he told the Colosians that though I am absent from you in body, that I am present with you in spirit. The first speaks about our relationship with the Lord, the second our relationship with others.

2 Cor 5:6-8. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. [one can safely conclude then that Paul certainly believed that to be absent from this body (flesh) is to be present with the Lord (in spirit).]

Col 2:5. I may be absent in body, but in spirit I am there among you, delighted to find how wellordered you are and to see how firm your faith in Christ is. [Here, Paul is telling the Colossians that he they are constantly present with Him in spirit, and that they should think of him as present with them.]
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I have also not found anything in scripture that speaks of "a cleansing place" between death from this natural life and entry into the presence of the Lord.

It is the Blood of the Sacrificial Lamb of God, Jesus, that cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. It is by our faith in Jesus that we are so washed in that Blood. Our Faith MUST occur while we are living this natural life. Therefore, if you wish to think of this life, and life within the Body of Christ (the church) as Purgatory, feel free to do so, because what you describe aptly fits the purpose of the Body of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Those who die bound for heaven who have some stain of sin on their souls must have that stain cleansed (purged) before going to that place into which nothing unclean may enter. The process of that cleaning is Purgatory.

That is the Catholic view of what happens at death and where Purgatory comes from (it comes from simply thinking about it - apparently).

However - for many non-Catholics we need all of our doctrine to be taught in God's Word itself.

The doctrine of the trinity is taught in scripture for example by having all the PARTS explicitly stated - even though the exact title "name" of the doctrine "Trinity" is not.

So also in the Gospel we have "Heaven" (not a doctrine - but a PLACE), the "Lake of Fire" and "Hell" all mentioned in God's Word. So we then look at the "Doctrine" that is in the Bible - the "teaching" ABOUT those "places" we find in the Bible.

In the case of Purgatory "the place" (as in Heaven the place) - it is not found in the Bible NOR is any teaching about a "place not mentioned in the Bible" found in the Bible.

So that seems to be our "problem" when comparing notes.

The RCC calls this more of a doctrine of "common sense" than of "Bible teaching". They get it just by "thinking about it" - not by having God's Bible writers "thinkg about it" and "write about it".

Pretty fascinating if you ask me.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Yelsew]

What is truly amazing, is that the doctrine of purgatory completely rejects Atonement! So, does that mean the Catholic doctrine of Atonement is not sufficient for the Sins of ALL mankind? Oh, what a weak savior the Catholics have!

 

[BobRyan]

They have various "categories of the debt of sin" some - Christ can "take care of" and others you really need "the spiritual bank of the church" to handle for you OR you have to "work it off yourself".

So Christ "saves you from Hell" but the RCC is your "savior from purgatory".

Christ mediates His blood for your sins to get you out of hell.

But the RCC mediates "his suffering and the suffering of all other saints" to get you out of the dreaded "purgatory".

They find a way to squeeze in and be another kind of savior from sin - savior from the penalty of sin - savior from the suffering and consequence of sin.

And "obvioulsy" everybody wants to "get out of that sufferin" hence the entire system of indulgences.

So "WHY" doesnt the church just GRANT plenary indulgences "to the world"? Does the "church" really "investigate each soul to whom (and for whom) she grants a plenary indulgence"? - No!

So - if no investigation - then grant them to the world - daily. Cover the planet.

Sort of a "RCC so loved the world that she daily grants plenary indulgences to all people who have died and gone to Purgatory".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Singer]

Bob and Yelsew:

You're being ignored, guys

Thanks for these quips; may I include them in my list on the
"Wouldn't you want to be Blessed" thread ?

What is truly amazing, is that the doctrine of purgatory completely
rejects Atonement! The Catholic doctrine of Atonement is not sufficient
for the Sins of ALL mankind? (Yelsew)

So Christ "saves you from Hell" but the RCC is your "savior from
purgatory".(Bob Ryan)

 

[BobRyan]

Singer -- Post away!

I see the problem you have correctly pointed out as a common strategy when the "details of the argument" are clearly not in one's favor they tend to "go some place else".

You picked up on that. Nice going.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Rich_UK]

yes Bob I have to agree with you there. Im my own personal experiance I've found many catholics to be the same way. If for even a minute they find the argument isnt in their favour, then it comes down to either Ignore or belittle. Neither of which have any effect on me, neither should they have on true bible believeing christians.....unfortunately this isn't always the case

Peace

 

[3AngelsMom]

Grant,

In all sincerity and real concern you should try to calm down and try not to take everything so seriously.

You're going to have an aneurism.

Laugh a little brother.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[BobRyan]

Rich - nice to see your post here.

The "problem" with Purgatory for Catholics is that the RCC itself often describes this doctrine as "we just thought it up" instead of "bible based".

(That is my way of referencing their "common sense" notion of doctrines that "just occured to us").

Hmmm the spiritual bank of excess suffering of dead saints "just occured to them".

And it "just occured to them" that Christ gave them the checkbook-of-excess-suffering-allocation.

And then it "just occured to them" that there is a get-out-of-jail card for Purgatory and that they can get people out by writing a few spiritual checks.

And of course "it occurs to them that nobody GOES to purgatory with mortal sin on their soul" - (they also understand that idolatry is mortal sin - "way worse than skipping out on church some sunday?"). And yet their only "text" is from 2Macc 12 where those who died (and were judged because of their idolatry) - receive a burnt offering regarding their future "resurrection" - that is as close to "purgatory and excess suffering allocation" they get from "any quote".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Carson Weber]

The "problem" with Purgatory for Catholics is that the RCC itself often describes this doctrine as "we just thought it up" instead of "bible based".

You are incorrect and are creating a straw man. The Church teaches that Purgatory is based upon the revelation contained in Sacred Scripture, esp. 1 Cor 3:15.

And of course "it occurs to them that nobody GOES to purgatory with mortal sin on their soul"

There is no such thing as "mortal sin" being "on one's soul". Mortal sin is the description of the privation of grace in one's soul. The lack of the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity is the result of mortal sin. Mortal means "deadly", and so mortal sin is sin that results in the death of the life of God in the soul.. the separation of the life of God from the human soul.

Those who die without this indwelling cannot go to heaven, the prerequisite for which is Purgatory for those who need to be further sanctified.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok-I stand corrected.

"It occurs to them that 1Cor 3:15 actually meantions"

#1. A place of suffering for saved saints that is not Heaven and that awaits them at death.

#2. Indulgences and the spiritual bank of excess suffering of dead saints to get people OUT of Purgatory "early".

#3. Christ gave them the checkbook-of-excess-suffering-allocation specifically targeting Purgatory.

And then it "just occured to them" that there is a get-out-of-jail card for Purgatory and that they can get people out by writing a few spiritual checks.

And of course "it occurs to them that nobody GOES to purgatory with mortal sin... Wherever Carson says it should should/not be.

A lot "just occurs to them from 1Cor 3:15".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

You are trying to buffalo a lot of people by saying the indwelling of the Trinity leaves because of mortal sin. Please, give me your list of verses that say that the Holy Spirit leaves a Christian, if they commit a heinous sin.

We do have multiple verses in the Bible which say that the Holy Spirit never leaves any of God's people. I Corinthians 6:17 says, ' . . . he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.' When a person receives Christ into their life the Holy Spirit joins that human spirit/soul into an eternal bonding.

I John 3:9 says 'Whosoever is born of God does not practice sinning, {why?} because His seed {the Holy Spirit} remaineth in him and he cannot practice sinning because he is born of God.' Check it out in the Greek.

And the Apostle Peter your alleged first Pope who you become so energized about says, that when a sinner is born of God it is ' . . . not a corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, {meaning the Holy Spirit is indestructible, just as God is imperishable} by the Word of God, Who liveth and abideth forever.' [I Peter 1:23] This Comforter/Holy Spirit [John 14:16] remains in our hearts and lives. He would be of no comfort if He up and left us.

If a relationship to God is broken by mortal sin, how can God chasten {Hebrews 12:6] a Christian when he or she is disobedient as a child of God? The Christian may displease the Lord and He may discipline him but He never takes the Holy Spirit away from them; thus they remain in His imparted grace.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Ray,

You commanded, "Please, give me your list of verses that say that the Holy Spirit leaves a Christian, if they commit a heinous sin."

St. John teaches the doctrine of mortal (deadly) sin in chapter 5 of his first epistle.

"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal."

This sin is called deadly or mortal because it kills the indwelling life of God in one's soul, thus rendering the soul dead of the life of charity.

When one commits sin that is not mortal (venial sin), the life of God in one's soul is lessened and, figuratively speaking, damaged. Thus, subsequent prayer gives life/healing for such an individual. However, when mortal/deadly sin is committed, one must receive the healing power of confession whereby one ordained in the line of the apostles gives the holy spirit through the forgiveness of sin, based upon John 20:21-23 -

Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

If a relationship to God is broken by mortal sin, how can God chasten {Hebrews 12:6] a Christian when he or she is disobedient as a child of God?

The type of disobedience that you speak of is what we call "venial sin". The type of sin that would forfeit one's divine sonship is "mortal sin", which would be the type of sin the Prodigal Son commits in Luke 15.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

 

[Carson Weber]

Ray,

Tell me this, brother, are you saved with infallible assurance? Do you have the Holy Spirit indwelling your soul? Are you saved forever and ever and ever once and for all?