Purgatory Or The Judgment Seat of Christ?

[Ray Berrian]

Yelsew,

You are absolutely correct. If grace is something you are in and out of, a weak Christian would be like a 'Jack-in-a-box.'

Carson never answers as to why God would even bother chastening His people, if in fact, they were already out of grace. In the words of the Hebrew writer, that Christian who was once in grace would now be a 'bastard.' [Hebrews 12:5-13] The fact is He only disciplines Christian believers when they sin. I learned this spiritual lesson in Bible College through studying the Bible. You sometimes wonder why some people can't understand His truth.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Ray,

You wrote, "Do I think I could commit adultery and die directly after this experience without forgiveness and still go to Heaven. Yes.

For the Galatians, Saint Paul describes the works of the flesh as "fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like" and he follows this list with "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

Paul does not say, "Those who do such things will have a lesser place in the kingdom".

Nor does he say, "Those who do such things will be punished but only for a time and they will still be included in the kingdom".

Nor does he say, "Those who do such things will be barely saved".

Nor does he say, "Those who do such things will have those things burned as 'stubble' and their soul will still be saved by Christ because of His unconditional covenant with us, because of our vibrant faith and trust in Jesus Christ."

No, none of what you have just proposed in your reply to me above are given as options by Saint Paul.

Paul warned the Galatians, "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:21b).

I would think that you would have a greater subservience to God's Holy, Sacred, and Inspired Word than that, Ray. What gives? Why are you ignoring the clear sense of what Paul tells us in order to uphold the unbiblical tradition of men that states that salvation cannot be lost by the Christian?

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Yelsew,

You wrote, "According to the Doctrine of Purgatory ... Jesus would have died in vain!"

Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification. Sanctification in this life involves pain, for "For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . [And] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Hebrews 12:6, 11), yet no one says that suffering infringes on Christ's sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way infringes on Christ's sufferings or implies they were insufficient.

Quite the contrary! The fact is that the suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ's sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification -- both the initial and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ's sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ's sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ's sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place!

Scripture tells us to "strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12:14). Our personal holiness is not optional; it is a prerequisite for the heavenly vision in heaven when we will see the Lord "face to face" (1 Cor 13:12). For "nothing unclean shall enter" heaven (Rev 21:27). This is the purpose that the Christian "will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15).

 

[Yelsew]

It seems the scriptures that you provided all have their focus on this present natural life, and nothing whatever to do with the spirit of man after death.

The doctrine of purgatory seems to misapply these scriptures. That would be wrongly dividing the word of Truth.

 

[Carson Weber]

It seems the scriptures that you provided all have their focus on this present natural life

Paul tells us that the Christian "will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). This pertains to man after his natural death.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

I would have thought that you, being a scholar, would have checked your Scriptures out before you presented them to me in trying to destroy the security that we have as Christians.

I can imagine you know Latin very well and this is good; but you need to check the Greek with reference to Galatians 5:21. Your shopping list of sins are sins of the flesh that sinners are aggressive to enjoy, because they are not united to Christ in faith. The sinner practices these sins of the flesh. The Greek word for ' . . . they which DO such things . . . {the word DO is the word practice in the Greek}

In like manner in I John 3:9 the word 'does not COMMIT sin, is really the Greek word practice. The correct rendering of the truth is 'Whosoever is born of God does not practice sinning, because His seed (the Holy Spirit-John 14:16) remains in him, and he cannot practice sinning because he is born of God.

In I John 3:4 the Greek word, 'poion' is used in describing the sinner. 'Whosoever practices sinning transgresseth the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law.'

The difference between a Christian is he does not make a practice of sinning; the sinner makes a practice of sinning as you correctly noted in Galatians 5:19-21. The Galatian passage does not mean that if a Christian fails once, as you suggested-adultery, that God withdraws His grace on the spot. When a Christian sins he loses his fellowship and inner peace with the Lord not his relationship as a son of God.

Whenever a Christian tries to persist in sinning, the Lord will chasten that one. Note: Hebrews 12:5-13. As John 14:16 and I John 3:9 indicates the Holy Spirit resides forever in the saved soul. The Holy Spirit is that incorruptible seed, which is alive in us forever. [I Peter 1:23] Yes, it is possible to 'grieve and or quench the Holy Spirit' but the Lord never gives up on His people. {Note I John 5:18, and review it in the Greek text.

Revelation 22:15 refers to 'dogs' and then lists all of the sins that sinners practice. These kind of people, the lost sinners, will never enter Heaven.

The incorruptible seed of the Holy Spirit remains in us as our inner Guide in living a life of holiness before our Lord.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Ray,

You made what seems to be a really clever dodge in being confronted with Paul's warning in Galatians 5:19-21.

Of course, I don't buy your dodge. Strong's interprets prasso as

AV - do 28, commit 5, exact 1, require 1, deed 1, keep 1, use arts 1; 38.

Paul is clear. Those who commit such sins shall not inherit the kingdom of God, and no amount of "oh, but the Greek.. you must pay attention to the Greek" will do the trick of avoiding the clear implications of his words because, essentially, the Greek doesn't give us any new inside scoop that allows for the OSAS tradition.

Also, your response is inconsistent.

You wrote, "The difference between a Christian is he does not make a practice of sinning; the sinner makes a practice of sinning"

After making this dichotomy, you stated, "Whenever a Christian tries to persist in sinning, the Lord will chasten that one."

What else is "to persist in sinning" than to "make a practice of sinning"? You're creating false distinctions in order to protect your OSAS tradition:

"The non-Christian makes a practice of sinning whereas the Christian can only persist in sinning. While the non-Christian goes to hell, the Christian is merely chastized."

The real nail in the coffin, Ray, is that Paul - in Galatians - is writing to Christians.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

Thanks for your reply.

If you are going to understand theology you must go to the original language and let it speak to you.

You were the closest to the truth when you wrote, '"The non-Christian makes a practice of sinning whereas the Christian can only persist in sinning. While the non-Christian goes to hell, the Christian is merely chastized."

The sinner makes a practice of sinning in many areas and ways. The Christian cannot persist in a practice of sinning, because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. [I John 3:9] The Christian Catholic or Protestant may offend the Lord here and there, but that person will never feel good about his sin. In order to have peace of mind and heart he will have to confess it the Lord God.

Yes, sinners go to Hell, while Christians are chastized. Why did the Apostle Paul say that believers are chastened in I Corinthians 11:32? He says, God judges us through chastening so 'we will not be condemned {to Hell} along with the rest of the world.'

I had two sons and one daughter and understand the concept of human discipline; God steps into the lives of Christians to correct their wrong and rebellious ways.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber via the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church says, 'Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification.'

God's holy Word, the Bible, says, 'And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless {(en) ='s the word at --from the Greek} the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' [I Thess. 5:23] There is no dreary, mysterious, unexplained place called Purgatory with no explanation as to its duration for the unsanctified soul. This is a hold over of medieval theology. Take your pick. The choice is what did Jesus say through the Apostle Paul or the evolving theology and tradition of men.

Former President of Dallas Theological Seminary, in his VI volume of "Systematic Theology" makes this quote. Ultimate Sanctification: 'Even experimental sanctification {meaning our desire to be like Him while on earth} my bracketed words; will be perfected when the saints are gathered into the Savior's Presence in glory. "When He shall appear, we shall be like Him" and "conformed to the image of His Son" (I John 3:2; Romans 8:29). p. 285 at bottom.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
It seems the scriptures that you provided all have their focus on this present natural life

Paul tells us that the Christian "will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). This pertains to man after his natural death.

I agree, but that does not prove "purgatory". What Paul is talking about is the works of man are to be tested. For one whose works were consumed in the fire in the manner of wood, hay, and stubble, that one will survive, as if through fire. If you have ever suffered a fire that destroyed all that you possessed, you can understand "surviving as if through fire". That which you acquired and "cherished" that was part of "who you are" is gone but you remain, devastated, but alive. That is the illustration that Paul gives.

If you want to call that purgatory, OK! But scriptures call that testing of your works! And not redeeming or further refinement of your soul.

 

[BobRyan]

Purgatory is a place of torment according to the RCC. So "bad" is it - that the entire system of "indulgences" is geared to "get loved ones out of there".

You are not considered to be a good or loving child if you make no effort to free your family members from that horrible place by earning whatever indulgences you can for them.

There is just no good way to put lipstick on that pig.

In Christ,

Bob