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Purgatory question
- Thread starter Mike G
- Start date
GraceSaves
New Member
Only if I am willing to look to sources other then God's Word, which I am not.
~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Then why are you posting here, seeking to gain insight even unto your own faith, when you have a Bible right there in your own home? Oh yeah...that's right...because education of God's Word can be found outside of the Bible itself.
GraceSaves
New Member
Education of God's Word can be found in many places. God's Word is only in one place, the Bible.
~Lorelei[/QB][/QUOTE]
Oh? According to which passage of the Bible?
~Lorelei[/QB][/QUOTE]
Oh? According to which passage of the Bible?
We are shown by example in Acts that all beliefs must line up with the scriptures:
Jesus and the apostles used the scriptures to teach from. Would you like me to quote all of the verses that prove this?
As Jesus said:
Just one of many verses where he mentions that. I don't know of any verses off hand where he says "Dont you know from tradition?".
~Lorelei
GraceSaves
New Member
Lorelei,
Not one of those verses says that "the Bible" alone is anything. Realize that Catholics do not believe in "further revelation," as the first verse points out, nor have we taken out parts of Scripture. Rather, it is Protestants who took out parts of the Old Testament. Granted, you don't believe me when I say it, but there is more evidence of Protestants deleting than Catholics adding.
Also, I know of no Catholic teaching that goes against Scripture. We could get into a thousand different debates, but they all end up in "where is that in Scripture," because you demand concrete Scriptural evidence, or else what we say is "contrary" to Scripture.
All of those verses showed the absolute importance of Scripture, and how essential it is to the Christian faith, in guiding us to where God wants us to go. No where, though, does it say that Scripture is the only source of inspiration.
Not one of those verses says that "the Bible" alone is anything. Realize that Catholics do not believe in "further revelation," as the first verse points out, nor have we taken out parts of Scripture. Rather, it is Protestants who took out parts of the Old Testament. Granted, you don't believe me when I say it, but there is more evidence of Protestants deleting than Catholics adding.
Also, I know of no Catholic teaching that goes against Scripture. We could get into a thousand different debates, but they all end up in "where is that in Scripture," because you demand concrete Scriptural evidence, or else what we say is "contrary" to Scripture.
All of those verses showed the absolute importance of Scripture, and how essential it is to the Christian faith, in guiding us to where God wants us to go. No where, though, does it say that Scripture is the only source of inspiration.
Jesus was always speaking about the secrets of Heaven through parables.
Remember where he was telling the one about making amends with those whom you have a problem before you get to court, cause if you don't, the judge will through you in jail, and you will not get out until you've paid the last penny.
That is Purgatory my friends. That is your scripture support.
And why do you folks always insists that everything has to be proven through scripture.
The early Christians prayed for the dead, and the Early Church, the Catholic Church, are the ones who preserved the scriptures so that you all can read them, and they believed in Purgatory. Why else would we need to judged, if everything was already forgotten. Why do we need to give an account of everything at the day of judgement? What other scripture support do you need. It makes perfect sense that we would be burned for the things we let slide, even though we still may be saved,...."Nothing Unclean will enter Heaven"
Makes perfect sense to Me.
Remember where he was telling the one about making amends with those whom you have a problem before you get to court, cause if you don't, the judge will through you in jail, and you will not get out until you've paid the last penny.
That is Purgatory my friends. That is your scripture support.
And why do you folks always insists that everything has to be proven through scripture.
The early Christians prayed for the dead, and the Early Church, the Catholic Church, are the ones who preserved the scriptures so that you all can read them, and they believed in Purgatory. Why else would we need to judged, if everything was already forgotten. Why do we need to give an account of everything at the day of judgement? What other scripture support do you need. It makes perfect sense that we would be burned for the things we let slide, even though we still may be saved,...."Nothing Unclean will enter Heaven"
Makes perfect sense to Me.
"I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:12-15
No mention here at all of a 2nd chance, sometimes called purgatory. We do see that what happened in this 1 life we are given was the deciding factor. Some RC's will say, "See, it says we'll be judged for what we did! That proves works + salvation!" Think again:
"This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent." John 6:29
Is this a mental assent that Jesus is the Son of God? Many acknowledge in a form, at least, that Jesus is the Son of God; but still deny His deity, or deny His uniqueness, or deny that this belief Jesus spoke of is sufficient for salvation. This "belief" can be understood from the original language as meaning "to cling to"; a term which denotes a total abandonment to Jesus Christ; a total reliance upon Him.
"The kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:4-7
God's work of regenerating His chosen people. He washes us, He saves us, He justifies us by His grace, and He assures us that all who are washed by Him will for certain [no loop holes, maybes or purgatory!] be heirs according to the hope of eternal life!
God's Word answers all questions, if we will only look to it by faith. It is complete, meant to be taken in totality of what it says.
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in Him..."! Col. 2:8-10
Purgatory? There is no need! Those washed one time in the blood of Christ have their sins forgiven continually, as long as we live. We of this company are complete in Him!
"Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?...And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:9-11
Paul was listing homosexuals, drunkards, thieves & others who were born again. He says of them (and all of us who have been given new life through Christ) now you are washed! We are cleansed now ; we don't have to wait for a final cleansing after we die! In fact, there is absolutely no promise or hint of such a cleansing. Praise the Lord--we are cleansed now!
Those who refuse to place their reliance on Christ alone to save them will face the doom of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life: hell, forever!
Trust Him completely, today! Do not rely any more on the words of frail men. Seek the Savior, seek His Word and find complete rest in Him!
"It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement. Heb. 9:27
No mention here at all of a 2nd chance, sometimes called purgatory. We do see that what happened in this 1 life we are given was the deciding factor. Some RC's will say, "See, it says we'll be judged for what we did! That proves works + salvation!" Think again:
"This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent." John 6:29
Is this a mental assent that Jesus is the Son of God? Many acknowledge in a form, at least, that Jesus is the Son of God; but still deny His deity, or deny His uniqueness, or deny that this belief Jesus spoke of is sufficient for salvation. This "belief" can be understood from the original language as meaning "to cling to"; a term which denotes a total abandonment to Jesus Christ; a total reliance upon Him.
"The kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:4-7
God's work of regenerating His chosen people. He washes us, He saves us, He justifies us by His grace, and He assures us that all who are washed by Him will for certain [no loop holes, maybes or purgatory!] be heirs according to the hope of eternal life!
God's Word answers all questions, if we will only look to it by faith. It is complete, meant to be taken in totality of what it says.
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in Him..."! Col. 2:8-10
Purgatory? There is no need! Those washed one time in the blood of Christ have their sins forgiven continually, as long as we live. We of this company are complete in Him!
"Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?...And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:9-11
Paul was listing homosexuals, drunkards, thieves & others who were born again. He says of them (and all of us who have been given new life through Christ) now you are washed! We are cleansed now ; we don't have to wait for a final cleansing after we die! In fact, there is absolutely no promise or hint of such a cleansing. Praise the Lord--we are cleansed now!
Those who refuse to place their reliance on Christ alone to save them will face the doom of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life: hell, forever!
Trust Him completely, today! Do not rely any more on the words of frail men. Seek the Savior, seek His Word and find complete rest in Him!
"It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement. Heb. 9:27
I'm back. 
Thanks everyone for your responses. JavaLady - Amen and amen!
GraceSaves, you wrote: "So, in a nutshell, just remember that "today" doesn't mean "immediately," and that outside death, time does not have the same meaning at all."
I can see where you are coming from, but I guess I see this differently. I could maybe go along with this if the idea of purgatory were spelled out clearly in scripture. I just don't see it. The Bible clearly talks about Heaven and Hell, so if there were a third destination (even if it is only temporary) why isn't it also clearly mentioned?
GraceSaves, I do appreciate you trying to explain this to me from the Catholic viewpoint. I just find it more comforting and more in line with scripture to think that when I die I immediately go to be with Christ. As Paul said, "If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
I know Paul doesn't say "immediately", but his statement doesn't make much sense understood any other way, in my mind at least.
Again, thanks for your graciousness. I've enjoyed the discussion
Thanks everyone for your responses. JavaLady - Amen and amen!
GraceSaves, you wrote: "So, in a nutshell, just remember that "today" doesn't mean "immediately," and that outside death, time does not have the same meaning at all."
I can see where you are coming from, but I guess I see this differently. I could maybe go along with this if the idea of purgatory were spelled out clearly in scripture. I just don't see it. The Bible clearly talks about Heaven and Hell, so if there were a third destination (even if it is only temporary) why isn't it also clearly mentioned?
GraceSaves, I do appreciate you trying to explain this to me from the Catholic viewpoint. I just find it more comforting and more in line with scripture to think that when I die I immediately go to be with Christ. As Paul said, "If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
I know Paul doesn't say "immediately", but his statement doesn't make much sense understood any other way, in my mind at least.
Again, thanks for your graciousness. I've enjoyed the discussion
GraceSaves
New Member
Javalady,
There you go again. Show me the Catholic doctrine that says "purgatory is a second chance." This is totally against the Catholic teaching. So when you state these kinds of things as fact, you degrade your whole argument. Read, for the fiftieth time, that purgatory is for those who die in the friendship and GRACE of God. No second chance.
Mike,
Understood, and that's all I ask. Thank you for reading what I wrote and not trying to through in blatant misconceptions. Let me add that the Catechism repeatedly calls purgatory a "state." It's not a place, which is why it's not mentioned as some"thing" between heaven and hell. Purgatory is the continual journey to heaven, not at ALL a waiting point. Every split second (if you must take time into account) is that much closer to Christ. It's not a waiting room.
There you go again. Show me the Catholic doctrine that says "purgatory is a second chance." This is totally against the Catholic teaching. So when you state these kinds of things as fact, you degrade your whole argument. Read, for the fiftieth time, that purgatory is for those who die in the friendship and GRACE of God. No second chance.
Mike,
Understood, and that's all I ask. Thank you for reading what I wrote and not trying to through in blatant misconceptions. Let me add that the Catechism repeatedly calls purgatory a "state." It's not a place, which is why it's not mentioned as some"thing" between heaven and hell. Purgatory is the continual journey to heaven, not at ALL a waiting point. Every split second (if you must take time into account) is that much closer to Christ. It's not a waiting room.
GraceSaves
New Member
Please provide evidence before making wild accusations. "Protestants who took out parts of the Old Testament." Which parts, when, who did it, and why? Please provide some information here.</font>[/QUOTE]The Old Testament canon was affirmed by the Council of Hippo in the late 4th century. These books that you believe the Catholics "added," were in the first printed Bible, the Gutenburg (spelling) bible, which was printed in the 15th century, nearly 75 years before Luther. Furthermore, Luther, one of the most acclaimed reformers, created his own Bible, in which he took out New Testament books including James and Revelation. This can be found on the Internet, if you wish to read his version.
Protestants took out the Deutero-canical books, as well as portions out of others, including Daniel. My accusations are not wild. I have proof that this canon existed well before the reformation, and dates back to the earliest Bible, in the 4th century. Where is your evidence that the Catholics took it out?
That's actually funny, since Protestants typically say "the Council of Trent," which was held some 30 years after Luther's reformation and split from the Church. Seems Luther took them out before the Catholic Church added them. What sense does that make?
The Old Testament Canon was finished, completed, affirmed, and accepted by the Jews around 400 B.C. The Jews would not accept any book written after that date as canonical. Between 400 B.C. and the time of Christ was the inter-testamental period, a period of time when God did not speak to any prophet. It was a period of silence. It was during those years that the Apocrypha was written. The Jews never accepted them into their canon of Scripture--the Old Testament. The Protestants had nothing to do with this. In fact it wasn't until the council of Trent, almost 1950 years after the Old Testament was canonized, did the Catholic Church "officially" accept the Apocrypha as a part of the canon of Scripture. Both Jews and Protestants never did. Even Jerome, writing his Latin Vulgate, protested loudly against the inclusion of the Apocrypha. He knew they were not inspired books.
DHK
DHK
The problem with this is that Catholics can enter purgatory before they die. If that is true it must be conceivable that they will end purgatory and go to heaven before they die.
The question now becomes: can you still go to heaven after you die? Or is is this perhaps why only Catholics have saints in heaven?
PreacherDave
New Member
The point of miss understanding (or complete denial) is Christ's finished work. When Christ said "It is finished!" (John 19:30) all of the requirements for our salvation were completed. There was no more actions required to secure our salvation.
Hebrews 10:11-18 says, "And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
A demand for a further action outside of Christ's completed work is a complete denial of saving grace. In fact, it is a false hope and fruitless action. Where is the need for further "burning of the sinful nature" when the scripture bears witness to the finished work of Christ: "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
Where there is complete forgiveness through Christ, there is no further need for actions required.
Sorry...purgatory is a false hope and a destructive doctrine to the grace of God.
Many kudos for the excellent presentation by Javalady! Amen dear sister!
Hebrews 10:11-18 says, "And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
A demand for a further action outside of Christ's completed work is a complete denial of saving grace. In fact, it is a false hope and fruitless action. Where is the need for further "burning of the sinful nature" when the scripture bears witness to the finished work of Christ: "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
Where there is complete forgiveness through Christ, there is no further need for actions required.
Sorry...purgatory is a false hope and a destructive doctrine to the grace of God.
Many kudos for the excellent presentation by Javalady! Amen dear sister!
Gloria - you stated: "The problem with this is that Catholics can enter purgatory before they die."
I searched the catechism on the internet and, if I understand it correctly, the state known as purgatory is after death.
In 1475 it states: "On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called PURGATORY."
Scripture points to the fact that we are already holy in God's sight because of our faith in Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross. Paul writes:
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. (Col 1:21-23a NIV)
1 John 1:9 states: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
We can be forgiven and purified now. We are complete in Christ.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Col. 2:9-10 NKJV)
Saint DHK
Amen, brother.
I searched the catechism on the internet and, if I understand it correctly, the state known as purgatory is after death.
In 1475 it states: "On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called PURGATORY."
Scripture points to the fact that we are already holy in God's sight because of our faith in Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross. Paul writes:
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. (Col 1:21-23a NIV)
1 John 1:9 states: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
We can be forgiven and purified now. We are complete in Christ.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Col. 2:9-10 NKJV)
Saint DHK
GraceSaves
New Member
You're failing to understand the Communion of Saints. This is confessed in all the creeds. The communion of saints is the communion of all of God's children, both ON EARTH and in heaven. This idea that you are pushing is in total agreement with Catholic teachings. We pray to the saints in heaven but more fervently to the saints here on earth, our brothers and sisters in the community! No Catholic rejects the idea that we, who persevere in the name of Christ, are saints. We simply make special note of those who have gone before us who are assuredly in heaven, for they are saints to, and are living in paradise, free of all sin.
GraceSaves
New Member
Preacher Dave,
You're still going on the basis that purgatory is something that we do to make ourselves right with God. No. Just as it is God who forgives our sins, it is God who clenses us in purgatory. You say that the work is finished. However, I still have to turn to Christ and repent of my sins to receive that salvation. Not everyone is saved; it takes the belief in Christ as savior. Thus, the work for individual salvation is not completed until we have Christ in our heart. How then, can you say, that a final act on God's behalf cannot take place?
Furthermore, if your entire sinful nature is already paid for, why do you continue to sin?
You're still going on the basis that purgatory is something that we do to make ourselves right with God. No. Just as it is God who forgives our sins, it is God who clenses us in purgatory. You say that the work is finished. However, I still have to turn to Christ and repent of my sins to receive that salvation. Not everyone is saved; it takes the belief in Christ as savior. Thus, the work for individual salvation is not completed until we have Christ in our heart. How then, can you say, that a final act on God's behalf cannot take place?
Furthermore, if your entire sinful nature is already paid for, why do you continue to sin?